Dr Lydia Foy new case.

MadsL

Dr Lydia Foy has launched another legal challenge to actually get her hands on her reissued birth certifcate showing her to legally be a woman fully five years after winning her legal case proving her right to have the certificate altered.

Five years after winning her case, what an insult. What exactly is the State's problem here other than some kind of bizarre willingness to spend thousands of taxpayers money defending the indefensible?

Story here.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/transgender-dentist-starts-new-bid-for-birth-cert-29099253.html#sthash.vHnDaVax.dpuf

Rothmans

So the result of the first case was basically 'yes we're violating your human rights, but we couldn't be bothered doing anything to rectify that'?

MadsL

State dropped the appeal against the determination that they were violating her human rights. She's asked for her birth cert to be changed but they have so far not issued the changed cert.

Refusal through inaction. The State throwing a passive aggressive huff basically.

CollardGreens

She's asked for her birth cert to be changed but they have so far not issued the changed cert.

She should write Obama on how to do that, he's a pro!

drunkmonkey

There's nothing wrong with the state spending money protecting the definition of a woman.
He should not be issued with a birth cert of an Irish woman he is not one. How it's against his human rights is beyond me.

MadsL

drunkmonkey wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with the state spending money protecting the definition of a woman.
He should not be issued with a birth cert of an Irish woman he is not one. How it's against his human rights is beyond me.

Fortunately it is not up to you. Why does a "definition" need protecting anyway?

You can get your birth cert reissued with your current sex in Texas ffs.

MadsL

CollardGreens wrote: »

She should write Obama on how to do that, he's a pro!

Leave the Limbaugh Lemonade alone will ya..

token101

It's completely ridiculous that she won the case yet still hasn't been given what she won but I don't really see how it's her right to have a legal document altered to be honest. I know the EU recognises it, etc, but what exactly is the reason behind it? She was born a man? So the document is correct at the time of writing?

CollardGreens

So if a man has one of these change things, do they cut off his penis? If so, isn't that his pleasure tool gone? Do they save it in a jar like they did my brothers tonsils?

orestes

drunkmonkey wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with the state spending money protecting the definition of a woman.
He should not be issued with a birth cert of an Irish woman he is not one. How it's against his human rights is beyond me.

Until pretty recently the states definition of a woman was either "property" or "free slave labour", so I think I'll go with the Europeans on this one. You know, the ones who wrote that whacky Convention of Human Rights thingy with it's quirky little ideas about people being equal and allowed to be free to be themselves and all that.

juice1304

They don't cut it off they split it down the middle and make it look like lady bits.
I don't see why they care so much if all her other documents say she is a lady then what difference dose it make. I would imagine it is some bigoted tard in an office who dose'nt agree with her so is making trouble. Having the document changed is'nt going to affect anyone else or make any difference and if it will make her happy then who cares. :rolleyes:

im invisible

CollardGreens wrote: »

So if a man has one of these change things, do they cut off his penis? If so, isn't that his pleasure tool gone? Do they save it in a jar like they did my brothers tonsils?

saw a documentary on it once, i'd file it under 'what has been seen, cannot be unseen'...
Sometimes you're better off not knowing

Jimoslimos

MadsL wrote: »

Fortunately it is not up to you. Why does a "definition" need protecting anyway?

You can get your birth cert reissued with your current sex in Texas ffs.

Kind of a misnomer to call it a 'birth cert' then

MadsL

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Kind of a misnomer to call it a 'birth cert' then

Well it is a document asserting your legal identity, don't you think it should have your current sex correctly stated?

Jimoslimos

MadsL wrote: »

Well it is a document asserting your legal identity, don't you think it should have your current sex correctly stated?

No, it is a record of your birth. Should it be updated if your parents change professions?

I do however think her actual gender (male) should only be of concern to her partner and doctor - not any prospective employers. If her passport states F, then that should be acceptable to everyone else.

I don't agree with altering correct historical documents.


Running out of steam on the other thread eh? Keep on tr..tr..tr..trucking MadsL!;)

MadsL

Jimoslimos wrote: »

No, it is a record of your birth. Should it be updated if your parents change professions?

Should it be updated if your presumptive father turns out to not be your biological dad?

I do however think her actual gender (male) should only be of concern to her partner and doctor - not any prospective employers. If her passport states F, then that should be acceptable to everyone else.

How do you get a passport? What documents are provided?

I don't agree with altering correct historical documents.

It's not the Gettysburgh Address, just a proof of identity - get a grip.

Running out of steam on the other thread eh? Keep on tr..tr..tr..trucking MadsL!;)

It is a discussion board I believe, this issue came up in the other thread -better to separate them, to y'know discuss things. But thanks for the sly dig.

juice1304

Jimoslimos wrote: »

No, it is a record of your birth. Should it be updated if your parents change professions?

I do however think her actual gender (male) should only be of concern to her partner and doctor - not any prospective employers. If her passport states F, then that should be acceptable to everyone else.

I don't agree with altering correct historical documents.


Running out of steam on the other thread eh? Keep on tr..tr..tr..trucking MadsL!;)

What is your reasoning for this? How will it impact on your life or make any difference to anyone else other then her?

Cereal Number

live and let live

drunkmonkey

MadsL wrote: »

Well it is a document asserting your legal identity, don't you think it should have your current sex correctly stated?

He was born a man therefore he is a man. He should not be allowed in women's changing rooms or toilets, he should also not be allowed to compete in competitions or sports as a woman.
His sex is correct on his birth cert unless the doctor or midwife made a mistake his cert should never be altered. He should also not be allowed refer to himself as a girl in his job. I would be horrified to walk into trans dentist without knowing. If I go to Dr Lydia I don't expect to find Dr Larrry in a skirt.

mod: banned.

Jimoslimos

juice1304 wrote: »

What is your reasoning for this? How will it impact on your life or make any difference to anyone else other then her?

Overall, I like epidemiology and population health statistics. I don't like anything that might confound the data, like women getting prostate cancer!

MadsL

drunkmonkey wrote: »

He was born a man therefore he is a man.

Not according to the courts.

He should not be allowed in women's changing rooms or toilets,

I think you are mixing up gender and sexuality.

he should also not be allowed to compete in competitions or sports as a woman.

I see. Because?

His sex is correct on his birth cert unless the doctor or midwife made a mistake his cert should never be altered.

Why? What would be the purpose of that?

He should also not be allowed refer to himself as a girl in his job. I would be horrified to walk into trans dentist without knowing.

In case you catch the ghey?

If I go to Dr Lydia I don't expect to find Dr Larrry in a skirt.

Wtf difference does your dentists gender make?

MadsL

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Overall, I like epidemiology and population health statistics. I don't like anything that might confound the data, like women getting prostate cancer!

That it?! Your only objection of how it would impact you...wasn't expecting a statistic answer. How very obscure.

Jimoslimos

MadsL wrote: »

Should it be updated if your presumptive father turns out to not be your biological dad?

Something similar was discussed here previously, I would be broadly in favour of paternity tests (and chuck in a chromosome test as well to be sure) at the time of birth

MadsL wrote: »

How do you get a passport? What documents are provided?

If she needs a Female birth cert to have a passport issued as Female then that is a problem. A suitable compromise would be to have a legal document to supplement the birth cert stating the change, which would be acceptable for issuing passports, the original would remain with the correct biological sex.

drunkmonkey

Ghey eh?

Would he be straight if it said girl on his birth cert? He could then legally get married I presume.
Can of worms up the Dr's skirt me thinks.

MadsL

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Ghey eh?

Would he be straight if it said girl on his birth cert? He could then legally get married I presume.
Can of worms up the Dr's skirt me thinks.

Have you absolutely no clue about the difference between sexual orientation and gender? Or are you still in school and just immature about it?

She can legally marry now.

MadsL

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Something similar was discussed here previously, I would be broadly in favour of paternity tests (and chuck in a chromosome test as well to be sure) at the time of birth

That's not really answering the question I asked now is it. Do you think a post-birt test should be allowed to remove a father from a birth cert?

If she needs a Female birth cert to have a passport issued as Female then that is a problem. A suitable compromise would be to have a legal document to supplement the birth cert stating the change, which would be acceptable for issuing passports, the original would remain with the correct biological sex.

Would a corrected long form noting the change and a corrected short form showing just F be acceptable to you?

Peregrinus

A birth certificate is not a proof of identity. It's a record of a historical event - a record of the historical fact that a person with these characteristics and this ancestry who was given this name was born on this date at this place. There is nothing in the birth certificate to prove that the birth recorded in it was the birth of the person who now waves it around.

The argument for altering the birth certificate is that it was always wrong. Although it recorded Dr Foy as "male" on the basis of the configuration of the genitals, which is mostly a reliable indicator, Dr Foy was in fact psychosexually female but suffering from gender dysphoria, but this only became apparent as her true gender identity asserted itself.

The opposing argument is that gender is not primarily a matter of psychological self-identification, but of genes and chromosomes. On this view Dr Foy was (and is) male, albeit she has now had cosmetic surgery so that her external genitalia resemble female genitalia.

Or, in short, this depends on what you think "gender" means.

But it's relevant that the state now accepts her as female. The state therefore cannot rely on the argument that gender is determined genetically and chromosomally, so at least one ground for defending the accuracy of the birth record is not available to them.

The state could of course still argue that Dr Foy has changed sex; that she was male when born and only became female at a later date, and that the birth record is therefore correct and to alter it now would be to falsify it.

drunkmonkey

How can he legally marry another bloke in Ireland seen as his birth cert says he's a guy. Seems bizzare.

MadsL

Peregrinus wrote: »

But it's relevant that the state now accepts her as female. The state therefore cannot rely on the argument that gender is determined genetically and chromosomally, so at least one ground for defending the accuracy of the birth record is not available to them.

The state could of course still argue that Dr Foy has changed sex; that she was male when born and only became female at a later date, and that the birth record is therefore correct and to alter it now would be to falsify it.

But that would impinge on her human right to self determination of her gender identity which the ECHR has upheld.

MadsL

drunkmonkey wrote: »

How can he legally marry another bloke in Ireland seen as his birth cert says he's a guy. Seems bizzare.

Where did I restrict that to Ireland?

MadsL

drunkmonkey wrote: »

How can she be prevented from legally marrying a bloke in Ireland as the State has conceded that Dr Foy is legally female

FYP