Irish people abroad who just won't shut up moaning about Ireland

Just be honest. You're p*ssed that you don't get the vote. Sin e.

I am indeed. Never said anything different. You'd swear you caught me out on something I was trying to hide. It's hilarious.

For the record, Rob, it was you who was getting their knickers in a twist about the children of emigrants rushing to vote in Irish elections (the only reason you gave for being against the idea) and I agreed on a compromise that would please everyone. If I had my way, things would be very different but a compromise is always good.

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

They are citizens though.

You earlier claimed that you wanted Irish citizens abroad to be allowed vote as;



Legally, emigrants are no more Irish citizens than any other group of Irish citizens abroad. I don't see how you could give the vote to one group of Irish citizens abroad and not the rest.

I thought I adjusted a previous post but didn't. Irish citizens born in Ireland who have emigrated for less than 10 years.

Tbh, I'm not discussing the North. To me it's a separate issue entirely to the issue at hand and not something I know enough about to comment. I'm talking about votes for emigrants, not who can vote full stop.

]At the moment, emigrants can vote. They just have to come back home to exercise that right.

Come back and live. Maybe they can't? It's not that simple.

If you open up voting from abroad, then there is no way you can legally discriminate against one group of citizens abroad and another.You can that only citizens abroad, that were born in Ireland, can vote. As being born in Ireland does not entitle citizenship. Being born to Irish citizen parents, grand parents or great parents(if they registered the parent giving birth with the FBR beforehand)does.

True.

Also, what about naturalised citizens who leave the state for a year or two? Your rules would cut them off too.

Again, this is true. They should be allowed vote imo. My rule needs adjusting.


I don't think it's right that the American fella down the road who's never set foot in Ireland but came to Europe on an Irish passport (and for some unknown reason, hates Ireland) should have citizenship but someone born in our country doesn't. I'm torn on this issue, tbh. What's the reason grandchildren of Irish emigrants can get citizenship?.

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

At the moment, emigrants can vote. They just have to come back home to exercise that right

Not as such they have to be resident in the country the year before AFAIK.

TheBeardedLady wrote: »

Why would you stand for us to be treated badly at all?

Because though its not a great situation, at least the present system is equal and doesn't link rights to being born in a particular part of Ireland, remember even the revised article 2 states

It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation

, the system you propose would codify the already embedded idea that Irish Nationals living in NI are less Irish than those born South of the Border.

TheBeardedLady wrote: »

Tbh, I didn't consider the north and am only talking about emigrants having the vote, not the rights of the children of emigrants or Irish citizens in the North or any other groups people have brought into the debate.

This is the problem, we all have different ideas of what the 'Irish Nation' is the system at the minute avoids these problem by being equally harsh, this is about citizenship and the rights associated with it, you can't have a discussion about something like this and exclude certain groups.

TheBeardedLady wrote: »

Perhaps a thread on "who has the right to vote" can be started. We could debate whether criminals could vote as well. That's an interesting one.

Would you be happy if the system changed to allow Irish citizens abroad or in NI to vote in a revised senate, at the minute I think your senate voting rights are transferable outside the jurisdiction anyway its just the franchise is extremely limited. I'd certainly be in favor of this idea and it might give the senate some teeth rather than being a rubber stamping body.

I think the real issue is voting on constitutional amendments however and I can't see a system being worked out that doesn't either relegate certain groups to second class citizenship or create a situation where the vast number of people outside the state have an influence on decisions that effect them indirectly.

To be honest I think that the system as a whole is a mess particularly after (the very necessary) changes that occurred in 1999, I have filled out government forms that are actually contradictory.

Ps of course prisoners should have the right to vote, restricting that or the right of those with convictions to stand for office might seem reasonable to some but disfranchising people is a dangerous move.

Because though its not a great situation, at least the present system is equal and doesn't link rights to being born in a particular part of Ireland, remember even the revised article 2 states
, the system you propose would codify the already embedded idea that Irish Nationals living in NI are less Irish than those born South of the Border.

I'd be happy enough to allow them to vote if that's what they wanted.

Would you be happy if the system changed to allow Irish citizens abroad or in NI to vote in a revised senate, at the minute I think your senate voting rights are transferable outside the jurisdiction anyway its just the franchise is extremely limited. I'd certainly be in favor of this idea and it might give the senate some teeth rather than being a rubber stamping body.

Tbh, more than anything, I'd like to vote in referendums as they're often related to human rights.

I think the real issue is voting on constitutional amendments however and I can't see a system being worked out that doesn't either relegate certain groups to second class citizenship or create a situation where the vast number of people outside the state have an influence on decisions that effect them indirectly.

Yes, fair enough. I can see that but I believe a solution can be reached. If other countries manage, I'm sure we could figure something out.

Ps of course prisoners should have the right to vote, restricting that or the right of those with convictions to stand for office might seem reasonable to some but disfranchising people is a dangerous move.

I do actually agree but it's hard not to feel hard done by when you've been disenfranchised yourself and you literally have no say anywhere. I'm moving to the UK next year and funnily enough, I can vote there (and the British can vote in Ireland). You talk about the system being equally harsh but not in this case.

Actually, how does that work: the British can vote in Irish elections but Northern Irish can't? Or has that changed? I don't understand the justification there.

TheBeardedLady wrote: »

I'd be happy enough to allow them to vote if that's what they wanted.

I agree personally its in my interests (but as I have spent the majority of my adult life in the ROI it probably wouldn't have much practical effect on me) but its a serious thing adding a minimum of 360,000 people to the franchise and potentially up to 1.8 million, thats a vast change!

TheBeardedLady wrote: »

Yes, fair enough. I can see that but I believe a solution can be reached. If other countries manage, I'm sure we could figure something out.

Something could be worked out but its much harder for Ireland than other countries, we have the citizenship laws Rob the Builder was talking about, we have a vast amount of migrants and children of migrants, and we have NI.
To tackle this properly we would have to restructure a lot of the compromises that allow the Irish state to exist as it does. This isn't so much of an issue for the Senate which is why I can see it working but for referendums which your interested in primarily all these factors are going to come into play.
We could also consider moving to an American model of citizenship where you have rights but equally responsibilities such as Taxes.

TheBeardedLady wrote: »

I do actually agree but it's hard not to feel hard done by when you've been disenfranchised yourself and you literally have no say anywhere. I'm moving to the UK next year and funnily enough, I can vote there (and the British can vote in Ireland). You talk about the system being equally harsh but not in this case.


Actually, how does that work: the British can vote in Irish elections but Northern Irish can't? Or has that changed? I don't understand the justification there.

Thats a residency issue isn't it though, simply that British citizens here ( ROI) if they are residents have additional voting rights since the can vote for the Dail unlike other EU citizens. If your not actually living in X dail/local/European electoral area you have no additional rights, we are talking about extra-territorial voting. And they can't vote in referendums anyway.

I presume those voting rights are historic and there should be a harmonization across the EU of voting rights.

TheBeardedLady wrote: »

What's the confused face about? It was a genuine question.

No offense meant I'm genuinely confused to I think, like that issue is about voting rights where you are living, we are talking about voting rights that don't relate to where your living at present but where you relate/have citizenship etc to. Like if you were complaining about Spain not giving you voting rights I get what you mean but we are talking about voting rights for where you don't live? Like as a person your situation might be unfair because your disenfranchised everywhere including where you live at the minute, but as an Irish citizen its "fair" or more correctly really equally unfair because we are all treated the same.

TheBeardedLady wrote: »

What's the confused face about? It was a genuine question. Is it only British citizens or UK citizens? People from the island of Britain can vote only? What about Northern Irish citizens with a UK (NI and Great Britain) passport?

Oh right, I get you now, I know the correct terminology is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland but I think the term is often used interchangeably even in official documentation, I've let my British Passport lapse so I don't actually know what it says on it. Since you would generally have entitlement to dual citizenship anyway (and I am entitled outside the NI thing anyway).
Its another one of those confusing things, similar to Ireland being the official name of the state but then some documentation referring to Ireland as being all the 32 counties :-/
Or Ebay shipping excluding NI from the UK :mad:

Edit: Seen your reply sorry, also I think people in NI may not be living in Britain as a geographic area are still considered British citizens/Subjects

UCDVet wrote: »

I share your frustration - but at the same time, maybe they have a point? And maybe if we worked at making Ireland a more desirable place to live and work, we would have so many people leaving.

Parochialism and provincialism are direct opposites. The provincial has no mind of his own; he does not trust what his eyes see until he has head what the metropolics - towards which his eyes are turned - has to say on the subject. This runs through all his activities. / The Parochial mentality on the other hand never is in any doubt about the social and artistic validity of his parish. All great civilisations are based on parochialism - Greek, Israelite, English - Greek, Israelite, English. Parochialism is universal; it deals with the fundamentals

Patrick Kavanagh

I've an idea! What about letting Irish citizens who don't have the right to vote elsewhere, vote in Ireland. So an American with Irish citizenship can't vote in both elections - they have to vote in one or the other. Same for Irish citizens in NI, same for all Irish citizens outside of the country. No idea how they'd manage this; perhaps showing proof they've been taken off the register or are not on the electoral register for the country they live in.

Whaddya reckon???

I live abroad, don't hate Ireland don't bash it, I live abroad that's it, I happy here :-)