Irish people abroad who just won't shut up moaning about Ireland

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I'm aware of that, but I've seen it suggested from time to time.

I can see both sides of the debate but I don't agree with you. We're one of the few countries where this is the case.

It's a democratic right that has been taken away from us. I can't even vote in the country I live. The moment I left the country, my voice didn't count anymore...anywhere. Irish emigrants are completely disenfranchised from the moment they leave and that is unjust. Even Iranians, one of the most repressive states on the planet, allow their countries to vote from abroad.

Tbh, I'm not even speaking for myself, just using me as an example as I wouldn't vote in general elections anyway at this stage as I'm away 10 years and have more interest in the politics of Spain than there (and many feel like I do and wouldn't vote) but many do feel that connection and many intend on returning when things improve. Many people left the country out of necessity and many of us can't return for the foreseeable future because of the lack of opportunities (I include myself in the latter). Many people in Ireland truly believe that all emigrants had a choice to stay or go. Even if that choice was made, we're still Irish citizens and should still have the basic right to vote in our country of birth as stated in the constitution.

The fact is, it's not in the government's interest to allow us to vote, mainly because Irish citizens abroad can’t hold them accountable in the polls and that's why they've left the law as it is. Irish citizens abroad and their families at home do not usually view our situations collectively. I can see that attitude even on this thread. There's resentment among some quarters towards emigrants in Ireland that I haven't come across elsewhere; people believe we left for purely selfish reasons and they use young people in Australia on a temp visa as an example (many of those had to go too - just because they're enjoying themselves doesn't mean they're any less Irish or didn't have to leave - awful begrudgery from some quarters with regards to this - should they be suffering everyday to make their plight more legitimate?).

I'll be honest, it's a horrible feeling, particularly for those of us who love our country, are proud to be Irish and hope to return someday.

People talk about the resentment they feel of those who left and complain about the country (even those who make reasonable complaints - how DARE they!) but think how resentful many of us feel to be complained about and maligned and almost disliked by so many people there just because we left.

People argue that those who don't pay taxes into the system shouldn't vote and in that case, we should take that right away from those on the dole, those who stay at home to mind children and full time carers of sick relatives, students without part time jobs, recent graduates without jobs, the elderly etc. People wouldn't dream of doing that (understandably). Many Irish abroad DO pay taxes into the system anyway.

Another issue that concerns people is the potential swamping of the electoral system. The Votes for Irish Citizens Abroad Campaign (VICA) has this problem by proposing that the votes of citizens abroad for the Dáil should be managed through reserved constituencies, as in France and Italy. For example, in French general elections, one member of parliament represents French people voting in Britain, Ireland, Scandinavia and the Baltic countries and there are eleven other constituencies for the French abroad. Italy has four overseas constituencies: South America, North and Central America, Europe, and Australia, Asia, Oceania, Antarctica as one huge constituency.

If this was implemented in Ireland it would mean a certain number of TDs are designated as representing different regions of emigrants abroad entitled to vote (maybe three as proposed for the Irish Senate). This ring fences the diaspora vote, ensures the votes of residents are not swamped, and also gives the diaspora direct representation in the Dáil.

Perhaps putting a limit on the amount of time you can vote after leaving the country (8-10 years?) and forfeiting the right to vote once you take citizenship elsewhere (which often takes 8 years). This seems reasonable to me.

Fact of the matter is, it's a right that we should have as Irish citizens and it's unlawful to deny us of that. People are shocked here when I tell them but there isn't the same kind of resentment towards emigrants here.

No they don't. The vast majority of Irish people don't give emigrants, except those that are their friends and family, a second thought.

I didn't say the majority. I don't mean the majority. I was very careful to make a point of that:

There's resentment among some quarters towards emigrants in Ireland that I haven't come across elsewhere

We, along with Italy and Portugal, have the laxest citizenship by descent laws in the EU. Take this for an example. Paddy moves to Boston in the 60s. Meets an American, marries her and has four kids. One Irish emigrant, now we have six citizens. Those four kids grow up, get married and have two kids each. One Irish emigrant, eighteen citizens. Once they register their childrens birth with the FBR, this cycle can continue indefinitely. Allowing citizens abroad vote, would allow potentially millions of people who never set foot in Ireland, vote. Groups like the AOH would be all over it and become extremely influential. F*ck that.

As is the case in other countries and what I included in my post:

Perhaps putting a limit on the amount of time you can vote after leaving the country (8-10 years?) and forfeiting the right to vote once you take citizenship elsewhere (which often takes 8 years). This seems reasonable to me.

I would be happy to see only those born in Ireland having the right to vote in this case (emigration) and only up to 10 years after they leave or sooner if they've taken up citizenship elsewhere. "Paddy" lost his own right to vote along time ago. I already alluded to that in my post.

How? What law is being broken?

It has another meaning:

not morally right or conventional

Unconstitutional and undemocraic if that suits you better.

Well that's not a bad idea to limit the right to vote to let's say 10 years after leaving the place but the idea that someone who emigrated and has no intention of ever returning still having a say on who the Government here will be is unacceptable.

Fair enough.

Even the people who are gone say over 5 years, would they even know who they are voting for?

Course they would! You can follow what's going on in Ireland without living there. Those who'd vote would have enough interest to find out who they're voting for...like anyone living in the country (actually, as Bluewolf pointed out, that isn't always the case, even for those who live there).

Would they do any research on the policies of the canidate they are voting in and realise how it would affect the people living and working here in Ireland ?

Those policies also affect the future of the country I'm from. It affects the country many were forced to leave and would return to if things improved or will return to. Next year you're voting in a referendum that won't have a direct effect on you..but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be allowed vote in that election. You're an Irish citizen and in turn, you have the right to vote like any other Irish citizen. I'm an Irish citizen too...but I can't vote anywhere.

I also suggested this:

Another issue that concerns people is the potential swamping of the electoral system. The Votes for Irish Citizens Abroad Campaign (VICA) has this problem by proposing that the votes of citizens abroad for the Dáil should be managed through reserved constituencies, as in France and Italy. For example, in French general elections, one member of parliament represents French people voting in Britain, Ireland, Scandinavia and the Baltic countries and there are eleven other constituencies for the French abroad. Italy has four overseas constituencies: South America, North and Central America, Europe, and Australia, Asia, Oceania, Antarctica as one huge constituency.

If this was implemented in Ireland it would mean a certain number of TDs are designated as representing different regions of emigrants abroad entitled to vote (maybe three as proposed for the Irish Senate). This ring fences the diaspora vote, ensures the votes of residents are not swamped, and also gives the diaspora direct representation in the Dáil.

bluewolf wrote: »

This criterion should be applied to those resident here also :pac:

Literally any citizen born in Ireland over the age of 18 and who hasn't emigrated, can vote. Criminals can vote in Ireland but a law abiding citizen who left his country because he couldn't find work, can't. Sound.

For elections in the Republic of Ireland, there is no disenfranchisement based on criminal conviction, and prisoners remain on the electoral register at their pre-imprisonment address

RDM_83 again wrote: »

I don't know I've argued about this before with yourself but its not hard to compare Ireland to an equivalent European country. As I pointed out in my post have a unique situation in relation to the sheer number of migrants for such a long period.

It also dodges the question of Northern Ireland another situation that is rather unique, I'm an Irish citizen born on the Island of Ireland until I moved down South I lived literally 3 miles from the border yet until i lived in the Republic I was completely unable to influence the direction of the state even though its positions could have massive impacts. Thats at least 360,000 people using a quick calculation of Irish passport holders in NI and the number who consider themselves "Irish" could be far higher.

While it may seem unfair to you, in one sense the current system is a much fairer in relation to how the state views its citizens, it treats us all equally badly, otherwise your relegating a huge number of citizens to a lower status because they weren't born in the "right" part of Ireland (even post 1999 this fact is recognized but particularly before hand with the strongly worded articles 2 + 3)

That said the list idea do seem have its merits and I don't see why it couldn't be quickly and uncontroversially rolled out for the Senate (which is massively undemocratic anyway, I think I still have two votes in it :pac: )

Why would you stand for us to be treated badly at all? Tbh, I didn't consider the north and am only talking about emigrants having the vote, not the rights of the children of emigrants or Irish citizens in the North or any other groups people have brought into the debate.

The North, imo, is a separate matter as they're not emigrants. Perhaps a thread on "who has the right to vote" can be started. We could debate whether criminals could vote as well. That's an interesting one.

But they are Irish citizens by birth. As are those born to an Irish parent, grandparent or, in some cases, great grandparent abroad. The state doesn't differentiate by the childs place of birth.

I know they are.

Being born in Ireland does not guarantee a child citizenship.

Eh...I know that.

So, you want to give the vote to emigrants, such as yourself, you haven't lived here in a decade. But not to Irish citizens living ten minutes from the border

I never said I didn't? NI has always been exceptional. The fact that they were granted citizenship at all makes it exceptional. It's a different matter entirely.

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Get rid of the granny and great granny citizenship rules and I'm all for allowing Irish emigrants and those born to Irish parents abroad the vote. Citizens up north should be able to vote in referendums and presidential elections.

People who have a link to the country and who are relatively clued in on the goings on here.

Irish Americans et al; f*ck no. That's my fear that this will all lead to.

So you're FOR giving the vote to Irish emigrants? You did a good job of pretending you didn't agree with me there...

I think it depends on what people's life was like growing up here.

It's like what one of the other posters on here said, you could be practically driven out of this country to find work abroad, not due to lack of work, but lack of connections.

Just some places in this country are way too cliquey, snobby, ignorant for it own good.
I mean Irish begrudgery is what brings this country down a lot. I believe the people have so much more to give, but when someone is criticised or ostracized for bettering themselves, I mean you cannot blame them for bitching about this country when they are abroad, because there is nothing worse knowing that you just don't fit in with the social norms anymore.

Just speaking from experience here.

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

We had a referendum to change that; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-seventh_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

That amendment (well insertion really) doesn't impact the vast vast majority of the group I am talking about though

rosedream wrote: »

I think it depends on what people's life was like growing up here.

Agreed. People often describe an Ireland on here I don't recognise. My part of the country is so far from a dump it's scary. I'm from a nice part of Dublin by the sea and then I moved into the city when I was 20. Bar a few of my teenage years when things didn't go so well, I was happy there and only left to finish my final year of uni (I did a PLC that only went as far as a Higher National Diploma)..then met someone...then met someone else...then came home..then left to travel...then came back to a crisis...then left with the intention of only going for a year or so...and here I am. This wasn't what I'd planned at all.

The funny thing is, unlike other countries, many people aren't willing to move around and find a place they prefer. They'd rather leave the country and label the whole country a dive than give another part of the country a go. I'd go loo-la if I was stuck in Ballydung but I'd be happy as a pig in **** in Dublin or Cork city.