drafting vs dumpline

Viewtodiefor · 23-10-2014 02:31PM

Cow Porter wrote: »

What's miss mash about this parlour. To me they look very open and clear in the pit for the amount of equipment in it.

Choice of activation of vacuum, when swing over the machine, lifting the cluster, button attached to the milk tubeif you want it or use the green button on the display.

Moorepark research lol, very patriotic but I often wondered........

Re pvc vacuum line, is there much weight in the air in it to be under strain?

Not about the weight of air more the line itself sagging and cracking . Well the way the lines are laid out and the actual meters and swing arms when looking down the pit don't look good. The troughs look light and who uses staggered rump rails these days?

kowtow · 23-10-2014 02:40PM

_Brian wrote: »

STOP, STOP, STOP

If you put any value on your heifers don't be putting an old machine together from bits and pieces and then expecting anything but trouble.

Sure, but if you are milking a single heifer while assembling the machine there is conceptually no difference to using a bucket milker, provided that the vacuum is demonstrably steady and within a reasonable range (in this case 44-45 for a mid level line)? In the end you have a vacuum, a bucket, and a pulsator.

Evidence suggests that I am worrying too much in any case given that she is milking perfectly, and her teats are in fine condition a few minutes after milking... I'm just interested in the detail of pulsation and precisely how it changes the vacuum at the teat end.

Cow Porter · 23-10-2014 02:46PM

Viewtodiefor wrote: »

Not about the weight of air more the line itself sagging and cracking . Well the way the lines are laid out and the actual meters and swing arms when looking down the pit don't look good. The troughs look light and who uses staggered rump rails these days?

milk and vacuum line are looped, more reserve for vacuum and only half the units milking into the one milk line. i.e. half units milking into a 3" line, other half into the other side. another thing is that the screen and keypad for the cluster you have in your hand is the one infront of you, allowing you to easily see the info while standing with the cow. what info you say?? milk and how much she is from reaching her daily average, conductivity, status (pregnant, inseminated, to be culled etc), days in milk, days bulled, feed and give her more feed, even last recorded scc! record info e.g med treatments, heat etc. and all easy to do, if you can work a mobile phone you can work this yoke.

pvc pipe doesn't sag too easy and supported anyway. nobody is going to be hanging off it.

troughs look a load of crap but are well designed and cow next door cannot bully the other cow when she hears that she is getting more. staggared rump rail helps here too and each cow has her own place. you don't need to jam in an extra cow cos they have too much room.

delaval use either a top or bottom staggared rump rail, trust me it works well, alot better than staraight pipe, only problem I see with it is its a longer pipe to keep clean lol

said it before and say it again, nothing against dairymaster, they are a huge irish success story, just not for our yard... but never say never. the stuff from the 80s and early 90s were bullet proof to be fair

kowtow · 23-10-2014 02:51PM

Cow Porter wrote: »

troughs look a load of crap but are well designed and cow next door cannot bully the other cow when she hears that she is getting more. staggared rump rail helps here too and each cow has her own place. you don't need to jam in an extra cow cos they have too much room.

delaval use either a top or bottom staggared rump rail, trust me it works well, alot better than staraight pipe, only problem I see with it is its a longer pipe to keep clean lol

Interested to see both staggered rail & troughs, have another thread up looking for experience of it, some say cow flow hindered and impossible to squeeze up a heifer behind another cow. I think it might be a good option to maximise use of a small cow standing.

_Brian · 23-10-2014 02:52PM

kowtow wrote: »

Sure, but if you are milking a single heifer while assembling the machine there is conceptually no difference to using a bucket milker, provided that the vacuum is demonstrably steady and within a reasonable range (in this case 44-45 for a mid level line)? In the end you have a vacuum, a bucket, and a pulsator.

Evidence suggests that I am worrying too much in any case given that she is milking perfectly, and her teats are in fine condition a few minutes after milking... I'm just interested in the detail of pulsation and precisely how it changes the vacuum at the teat end.

Ask someone out to set up the vacuum and the bucket properly. Have often done it for lads to keep them going. A bucket going poorly is still not good for cows.
It's not goo to cost much, particularly if the lad thinks he might get bigger work down the line when you scale up.
Did you not comment that you were seeing black rings on the teats after milking? I think this shows something is wrong.

Viewtodiefor · 23-10-2014 03:03PM

Cow Porter wrote: »

milk and vacuum line are looped, more reserve for vacuum and only half the units milking into the one milk line. i.e. half units milking into a 3" line, other half into the other side. another thing is that the screen and keypad for the cluster you have in your hand is the one infront of you, allowing you to easily see the info while standing with the cow. what info you say?? milk and how much she is from reaching her daily average, conductivity, status (pregnant, inseminated, to be culled etc), days in milk, days bulled, feed and give her more feed, even last recorded scc! record info e.g med treatments, heat etc. and all easy to do, if you can work a mobile phone you can work this yoke.

pvc pipe doesn't sag too easy and supported anyway. nobody is going to be hanging off it.

troughs look a load of crap but are well designed and cow next door cannot bully the other cow when she hears that she is getting more. staggared rump rail helps here too and each cow has her own place. you don't need to jam in an extra cow cos they have too much room.

delaval use either a top or bottom staggared rump rail, trust me it works well, alot better than staraight pipe, only problem I see with it is its a longer pipe to keep clean lol

said it before and say it again, nothing against dairymaster, they are a huge irish success story, just not for our yard... but never say never. the stuff from the 80s and early 90s were bullet proof to be fair

Jeeze frazzled would have a heart attack if you put him in that parlour!

Sure all the top of range keypads can give you all that info, can never see any value in staggered rail as you either have a too small a cow or two big a cow in it. Staggers troughs and straight rail or str8 troughs and staggerd rail would make sense.
Your vacuum reserve will depend on pump output not how long your vacuum line is. Whether it 2 feet or 200 feet reserve will be the same. Yes there might be more air in longer line but that does not increase your reserve.

Cow Porter · 23-10-2014 03:12PM

Viewtodiefor wrote: »

Jeeze frazzled would have a heart attack if you put him in that parlour!

Sure all the top of range keypads can give you all that info, can never see any value in staggered rail as you either have a too small a cow or two big a cow in it. Staggers troughs and straight rail or str8 troughs and staggerd rail would make sense.
Your vacuum reserve will depend on pump output not how long your vacuum line is. Whether it 2 feet or 200 feet reserve will be the same. Yes there might be more air in longer line but that does not increase your reserve.

He just might alright.

Gave nearly two years looking at parlours, gea are the only ones to have it clear, Gascoigne and delaval can tell you the info by a light displayed next to the symbol, like the one Westfalia had 10 years ago, also you cannot record yhe info on these.

Their rump rail and trough do work brilliantly. You may not think it but it is well though out with the cow first in mind. That engineer needs an award lol.

Reserve is reserve, response is determined by the regulator, ps dairymaster were using a Westfalia regulator up to very recently, even spotted it in moorepark open day

kowtow · 23-10-2014 03:13PM

_Brian wrote: »

Ask someone out to set up the vacuum and the bucket properly. Have often done it for lads to keep them going. A bucket going poorly is still not good for cows.
It's not goo to cost much, particularly if the lad thinks he might get bigger work down the line when you scale up.
Did you not comment that you were seeing black rings on the teats after milking? I think this shows something is wrong.

Not black rings, compression rings at the base of the teats - they can be felt rather than seen.

Once we've settled on what we are using we will test the whole parlour.. but we have plenty of rock steady vacuum, new regulator, new clusters - might be simplest to just put in the new pulsator which I know tests perfectly!

One of the reasons I am faffing around with pulsators is because we started out with master pulsation off the old Pearson pump - on to two relays in the parlour each driving a narrow pipe with 2/3 units attached. Whether or not the master pulsation is OK that whole set up makes for a very shaky vacuum so we binned it, now must decide what to replace it with.

We have a couple of pneumatic pulsators around for the time being as I mentioned but will probably put together something electronic over the next few weeks so as to stagger the demand on the pump.

It might seem a slow way of doing things - it is - but the benefit is that in the end we get exactly what we want, and we understand it.

Viewtodiefor · 23-10-2014 03:45PM

Cow Porter wrote: »

He just might alright.

Gave nearly two years looking at parlours, gea are the only ones to have it clear, Gascoigne and delaval can tell you the info by a light displayed next to the symbol, like the one Westfalia had 10 years ago, also you cannot record yhe info on these.

Their rump rail and trough do work brilliantly. You may not think it but it is well though out with the cow first in mind. That engineer needs an award lol.

Reserve is reserve, response is determined by the regulator, ps dairymaster were using a Westfalia regulator up to very recently, even spotted it in moorepark open day

Yes but your claiming higher reserve with a looped line

Cow Porter · 23-10-2014 03:48PM

Viewtodiefor wrote: »

Yes but your claiming higher reserve with a looped line

Surley there would be
? Or have I the technical incorrect word

Viewtodiefor · 23-10-2014 03:50PM

Cow Porter wrote: »

Surley there would be
? Or have I the technical incorrect word

How could there be? It's the pump which supplies the reserve

Cow Porter · 23-10-2014 03:56PM

Viewtodiefor wrote: »

How could there be? It's the pump which supplies the reserve

I'm no engineer but if a water line is looped surley there is more reserve and a more effective response to a pressure or vacuum drop

Viewtodiefor · 23-10-2014 04:05PM

Cow Porter wrote: »

I'm no engineer but if a water line is looped surley there is more reserve and a more effective response to a pressure or vacuum drop

No difference to a main line if it is sized correctly

mahoney_j · 23-10-2014 04:11PM

Viewtodiefor wrote: »

Not about the weight of air more the line itself sagging and cracking . Well the way the lines are laid out and the actual meters and swing arms when looking down the pit don't look good. The troughs look light and who uses staggered rump rails these days?

Jaysus your losing credibility now,troughs look light and who uses staggered rump rails,I'd nearly invite you down here as you really have no idea of what a Gea parlour looks like or functions.2 ft 7 centres staggered rump rails and mangers in front I challenge u to see a better and more comfortable standing and milking position.heifers can't get bullied by bigger cows and Milker hasn't to reach off in to put clusters on.ill take a few pics of my mish mosh parlour and let us know what u think

Timmaay · 23-10-2014 04:35PM

GEAs might be the rolls Royce of parlours but when I priced up a few barebones 10 unit parlours they were coming in at over 15k more than the cheapest quote I got that time (Gascoigne), and 10k more than a fullwood. I haven't bothered pricing up since but for the spec I have now for the 14unit I can only imagine the gap would be 25/30k, which is money that I'd be utterly mad to waste on a parlour.

Anyways ffs lads go create your own thread to annoy yourselves about which parlour is best

we have gone soo far off topic from a the original and more critical issue of drafting against a dumpline. To which the answer I have concluded for myself is you can live without both auto drafting and a dumpline but some well setup manual drafting (whether it's rope or air) is an utter must and gives a very good return for the few quid it will cost.

mahoney_j · 23-10-2014 04:44PM

Timmaay wrote: »

GEAs might be the rolls Royce of parlours but when I priced up a few barebones 10 unit parlours they were coming in at over 15k more than the cheapest quote I got that time (Gascoigne), and 10k more than a fullwood. I haven't bothered pricing up since but for the spec I have now for the 14unit I can only imagine the gap would be 25/30k, which is money that I'd be utterly mad to waste on a parlour.

Anyways ffs lads go create your own thread to annoy yourselves about which parlour is best we have gone soo far off topic from a the original and more critical issue of drafting against a dumpline. To which the answer I have concluded for myself is you can live without both auto drafting and a dumpline but some well setup manual drafting (whether it's rope or air) is an utter must and gives a very good return for the few quid it will cost.

Fair point Tim,Gea don't really do a no frills parlour,this was made obvious by their rep to me when I was getting quoted.they have taken over milfos now which cater for that end of market.

Timmaay · 23-10-2014 04:46PM

mahoney_j wrote: »

Fair point Tim,Gea don't really do a no frills parlour,this was made obvious by their rep to me when I was getting quoted.they have taken over milfos now which cater for that end of market.

Interesting, I was wondering what happened to milfos.

keep going · 23-10-2014 04:58PM

My feeling is drafting can do lots of things for you and is useful for a greater part of the year plus infected cows are safest milked last and can get more attention

mahoney_j · 23-10-2014 05:01PM

keep going wrote: »

My feeling is drafting can do lots of things for you and is useful for a greater part of the year plus infected cows are safest milked last and can get more attention

If money was getting tight and it was dump line or drafting ,drafting would win hands down.would get used for larger chunk of year

frazzledhome · 23-10-2014 05:04PM

mahoney_j wrote: »

Fair point Tim,Gea don't really do a no frills parlour,this was made obvious by their rep to me when I was getting quoted.they have taken over milfos now which cater for that end of market.

MJ are Westfalia and Gea some way comnected?

Greengrass1 · 23-10-2014 05:18PM

mahoney_j wrote: »

If money was getting tight and it was dump line or drafting ,drafting would win hands down.would get used for larger chunk of year

The way my parlour is built I dont no how I will be able to put in manual drafting it will have to be semi auto I say. Ive spent the yr thinking of ideas but the only way would involve me jumping up and down out if pit every row

Cow Porter · 23-10-2014 05:24PM

@timmay.... Sorry lol

frazzledhome wrote: »

MJ are Westfalia and Gea some way comnected?

GEA have several divisions, diessel which you see on back of milk trucks, process technologies in food plants, and farm technologies.

Under the farm technologies segment they own brands.

Westfalia surge is one brand, Milfos is another brand, fil markers is another, houle is a usa brand that do scrapers, de bore is I think a European or usa brand they bought that make cubicles etc.

Viewtodiefor · 23-10-2014 05:30PM

So lads which drafting is best?? Lol

mahoney_j · 23-10-2014 06:15PM

Cow Porter wrote: »

@timmay.... Sorry lol

GEA have several divisions, diessel which you see on back of milk trucks, process technologies in food plants, and farm technologies.

Under the farm technologies segment they own brands.

Westfalia surge is one brand, Milfos is another brand, fil markers is another, houle is a usa brand that do scrapers, de bore is I think a European or usa brand they bought that make cubicles etc.

That's Gea in a nutshell frazzled !!

Cow Porter · 23-10-2014 06:22PM

mahoney_j wrote: »

That's Gea in a nutshell frazzled !!

Farm technologies is one of the smallest if not the smallest division

http://www.gea.com/en/index.html

Viewtodiefor · 23-10-2014 06:29PM

frazzledhome wrote: »

MJ are Westfalia and Gea some way comnected?

Oh Frazz are yeah getting a hardon for all those frills??

mahoney_j · 23-10-2014 06:41PM

Viewtodiefor wrote: »

Oh Frazz are yeah getting a hardon for all those frills??

He was onto me the other day Is going for 80 point rotary fully loaded,trying to persuade him to hold fire till the robotic rotary is on line......

mahoney_j · 23-10-2014 06:42PM

Viewtodiefor wrote: »

Oh Frazz are yeah getting a hardon for all those frills??

He was onto me the other day Is going for 80 point rotary fully loaded,trying to persuade him to hold fire till the robotic rotary is on line......

Timmaay · 23-10-2014 06:46PM

Greengrass1 wrote: »

The way my parlour is built I dont no how I will be able to put in manual drafting it will have to be semi auto I say. Ive spent the yr thinking of ideas but the only way would involve me jumping up and down out if pit every row

I told ya before fire in a basic camera and monitor, alongside a rope similar to frazzs, job done!

Greengrass1 · 23-10-2014 06:50PM

Timmaay wrote: »

I told ya before fire in a basic camera and monitor, alongside a rope similar to frazzs, job done!

Sure thats to high tech for a farmer

Ye sorry I forgot about that. Ill get uncle to look at it aswell he might come up with something for it

drafting vs dumpline

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