drafting vs dumpline

_Brian · 23-10-2014 10:04AM

Viewtodiefor wrote: »

Sure dairymaster do 2x2 pulsation aswell I priced it and its the same price as 4x0!

Its just one of those debates that rage on and on, mostly fueled by companies pushing 4x0 pulsation...

I spent a good few years working on machines and testing various aspects and without a doubt 2x2 pulsation is superior.. Overall better results from SCC and teat health.
Simple things like the vacuum stability in the claw/milkpipe with 2x2 is much better.

You'll generally find that companies compensate 4x0 by reducing the pulsation ratios down to and below 60:40 where a good plant running 2x2 can run ratios of 70:30 without problems.

Cow Porter · 23-10-2014 10:30AM

Viewtodiefor wrote: »

That's strange mj as they have a 27% market share in Germany in just six years and wouldn't that be the home of gea?

where do you get your info ??

Harty et al ????

Viewtodiefor · 23-10-2014 10:46AM

mahoney_j wrote: »

When I was pricing 3 years ago ,2x2 was not a runner for them and aside from that too much plastic and very hard to nail them on a price any time I went back price dropped and I bet quality of materials did as well.27% share in Germany where did that figure come from??.was there a few years back and a lot of lely robots,Gea/westfallia and boumatic.never saw or heard of a dairy master.thats not to say there not there though.sure down around dairy masters base its nearly all de laval.

Check this out mj. Personally I think their quality is as good as any out there. I really can't see much difference in any of them, I have gascoigne claw pieces and have had cows break them with one kick! And they claim to have a good claw piece with not much so called plastic, gea have lots of plastic also including a plastic vacuum line

Viewtodiefor · 23-10-2014 10:47AM

mahoney_j wrote: »

When I was pricing 3 years ago ,2x2 was not a runner for them and aside from that too much plastic and very hard to nail them on a price any time I went back price dropped and I bet quality of materials did as well.27% share in Germany where did that figure come from??.was there a few years back and a lot of lely robots,Gea/westfallia and boumatic.never saw or heard of a dairy master.thats not to say there not there though.sure down around dairy masters base its nearly all de laval.

http://www.inarchive.com/page/2012-02-06/http://www.farmersjournal.ie/site/farming-Dairymaster-overnight-success-after-40-years-13592.html

5live · 23-10-2014 10:58AM

mahoney_j wrote: »

When I was pricing 3 years ago ,2x2 was not a runner for them and aside from that too much plastic and very hard to nail them on a price any time I went back price dropped and I bet quality of materials did as well.27% share in Germany where did that figure come from??.was there a few years back and a lot of lely robots,Gea/westfallia and boumatic.never saw or heard of a dairy master.thats not to say there not there though.sure down around dairy masters base its nearly all de laval.

Much as i'd like it to be true, it's not:D

There is a less than 25% Delaval round their base and we are very well looked after. Bounding me, its all Delaval and new Delaval going in in those places but Dairymaster are still the dominant make around.

Dairymaster do 2x2 but push unbelievably hard to go 4x0 to reduce the service and training times for staff to one single type of pulsation.

Timmaay · 23-10-2014 10:59AM

quader wrote: »

Timmaay I was quoted 5100 for a 12 units ids

Yeh 5500 for 14 ids here. Doesn't seem to be any diff in quality between them and crowleys.

Viewtodiefor · 23-10-2014 11:07AM

_Brian wrote: »

Its just one of those debates that rage on and on, mostly fueled by companies pushing 4x0 pulsation...

I spent a good few years working on machines and testing various aspects and without a doubt 2x2 pulsation is superior.. Overall better results from SCC and teat health.
Simple things like the vacuum stability in the claw/milkpipe with 2x2 is much better.

You'll generally find that companies compensate 4x0 by reducing the pulsation ratios down to and below 60:40 where a good plant running 2x2 can run ratios of 70:30 without problems.

Vacuum stability is a myth peddled by the 2x2 die hards. What affects your teat end condition is the rest phase and 4x0 beats 2x2 hands down on this.

Cow Porter · 23-10-2014 11:09AM

Viewtodiefor wrote: »

Check this out mj. Personally I think their quality is as good as any out there. I really can't see much difference in any of them, I have gascoigne claw pieces and have had cows break them with one kick! And they claim to have a good claw piece with not much so called plastic, gea have lots of plastic also including a plastic vacuum line

What's the advantage of a stainless steel vacuum line?

Viewtodiefor · 23-10-2014 11:12AM

Cow Porter wrote: »

What's the advantage of a stainless steel vacuum line?

If you look at all parlours installed over the last 40years they had galv vacuum lines and they are all still working and haven't fall end down or cracked. If you have PVC then you have a risk of cracking sagging and air leakage, at least if its steel of some sort then you know it's going to last, granted the PVC is very easy fit but you are relying totally on a very good installer as you won't get away with many mistakes on it in years to come.

Viewtodiefor · 23-10-2014 11:14AM

5live wrote: »

Much as i'd like it to be true, it's not:D

There is a less than 25% Delaval round their base and we are very well looked after. Bounding me, its all Delaval and new Delaval going in in those places but Dairymaster are still the dominant make around.

Dairymaster do 2x2 but push unbelievably hard to go 4x0 to reduce the service and training times for staff to one single type of pulsation.

Would they not make more money servicing 2x2 with the extra labour and parts ? You would imagine

quader · 23-10-2014 11:29AM

Timmaay wrote: »

Yeh 5500 for 14 ids here. Doesn't seem to be any diff in quality between them and crowleys.

At least ids were willing to come out and see the job crowley not really interested dairymaster want 6500

5live · 23-10-2014 11:30AM

Viewtodiefor wrote: »

Would they not make more money servicing 2x2 with the extra labour and parts ? You would imagine

Its like the Ryanair business model.

Single aircraft type so less training and servicing times and a single type of spares for all planes.

If Dairymaster only had 4x0, they wouldn't need 2x2 spares in stock or training to service them.

Viewtodiefor · 23-10-2014 11:34AM

5live wrote: »

Its like the Ryanair business model.

Single aircraft type so less training and servicing times and a single type of spares for all planes.

If Dairymaster only had 4x0, they wouldn't need 2x2 spares in stock or training to service them.

Is that not better from a farmers point of view? Less cost in servicing?

_Brian · 23-10-2014 11:52AM

Viewtodiefor wrote: »

Vacuum stability is a myth peddled by the 2x2 die hards. What affects your teat end condition is the rest phase and 4x0 beats 2x2 hands down on this.

Not really..
Rest phase is dictated by the pulsation ratio rather than pulsation type, you can vary the pulsation ratio equally on 4x0 and 2x2, 4x0 is typically set to lower ratios to reduce the milk flow in any one pulse, where 2x2 can run effectively at higher ratios and still provide stable conditions in the claw and at teat ends..

But its interesting that everywhere in the machine system there are efforts made to create vacuum stability, with larger lines, increased vacuum reserves, shorter milk tubes and better responding regulators.. But right at the interphase between the cow and the machine you're saying vacuum stability doesn't matter ?, I find that a strange opinion.

We tested this exact scenario and the vacuum is more stable with 2x2, and I'd expect it is affected more with higher yielding cows capable of higher milk flow in peak milk.

i'm a long time out of machines now but its interesting that the same debates are ongoing.

Like I said before, this debate is unlikely to ever have an answer to suite everybody.

mahoney_j · 23-10-2014 12:02PM

Viewtodiefor wrote: »

Check this out mj. Personally I think their quality is as good as any out there. I really can't see much difference in any of them, I have gascoigne claw pieces and have had cows break them with one kick! And they claim to have a good claw piece with not much so called plastic, gea have lots of plastic also including a plastic vacuum line

Have you been in a Gea parlour or full wood????.ive had lots of lads to see my parlour since it was installed and virtually everyone was well impressed with build quality quality of materials used ,layout and functionality of equipment in comparison to a dairy master parlour of similar spec and virtually all wanted away from 4x0 pulsation.ad for lots of plastic in a Gea ,there isn't I have one.joiners are all ss couplings ,any dm I saw there plastic and feedback from guys using them is that they warp from everyday hotwash and need replacing every 3 years .

Timmaay · 23-10-2014 12:12PM

quader wrote: »

At least ids were willing to come out and see the job crowley not really interested dairymaster want 6500

The crowd who I got a price off just resell the crowleys. They are based in cavan. From seeing their work in a friends parlour a few days ago I'd be perfectly happy to go with them.

Viewtodiefor · 23-10-2014 12:20PM

_Brian wrote: »

Not really..
Rest phase is dictated by the pulsation ratio rather than pulsation type, you can vary the pulsation ratio equally on 4x0 and 2x2, 4x0 is typically set to lower ratios to reduce the milk flow in any one pulse, where 2x2 can run effectively at higher ratios and still provide stable conditions in the claw and at teat ends..

But its interesting that everywhere in the machine system there are efforts made to create vacuum stability, with larger lines, increased vacuum reserves, shorter milk tubes and better responding regulators.. But right at the interphase between the cow and the machine you're saying vacuum stability doesn't matter ?, I find that a strange opinion.

We tested this exact scenario and the vacuum is more stable with 2x2, and I'd expect it is affected more with higher yielding cows capable of higher milk flow in peak milk.

i'm a long time out of machines now but its interesting that the same debates are ongoing.

Like I said before, this debate is unlikely to ever have an answer to suite everybody.

Can you tell me what exactly shuts off the vacuum to the teat end in the rest phase?

kowtow · 23-10-2014 12:28PM

Viewtodiefor wrote: »

Can you tell me what exactly shuts off the vacuum to the teat end in the rest phase?

I might well be wrong but as far as I can see it's atmospheric pressure. The liner 'relaxes' inside the shell when the pulsation 'breathes out', but the liner entrance is narrower at the short milk tube, and the vacuum in the line behind constricts the neck of the short milk cutting or severely reducing it the vacuum at the mouth of the liner.

Try sticking your thumbs in with the pulsation turned off, its a surprisingly gentle experience.

_Brian · 23-10-2014 12:31PM

Viewtodiefor wrote: »

Can you tell me what exactly shuts off the vacuum to the teat end in the rest phase?

Its a matter of differential pressure..
With vacuum always supplied via the claw to the inside of the milk liner.
During the rest phase the space between the liner and the shell is vented allowing atmosphere in, this actually contains two phases C & D, C would cover the time taken to vent and D represents the time when the liner is completely closed. The C & D phase combined make up 30-40% of the whole pulse, the shorter the C phase the better as this increases the D completely rest phase.
The pressure differential of atmosphere on one side and a vacuum on the other cause the milk liner to close in and so shut off the vacuum from the teat end.

The milk liner remains in place because a small amount of vacuum is always retained in the upper section of the milk liner near the udder.

Viewtodiefor · 23-10-2014 01:05PM

_Brian wrote: »

Its a matter of differential pressure..
With vacuum always supplied via the claw to the inside of the milk liner.
During the rest phase the space between the liner and the shell is vented allowing atmosphere in, this actually contains two phases C & D, C would cover the time taken to vent and D represents the time when the liner is completely closed. The C & D phase combined make up 30-40% of the whole pulse, the shorter the C phase the better as this increases the D completely rest phase.
The pressure differential of atmosphere on one side and a vacuum on the other cause the milk liner to close in and so shut off the vacuum from the teat end.

The milk liner remains in place because a small amount of vacuum is always retained in the upper section of the milk liner near the udder.

You are correct but what you left out is that the liner never completely closes off the vacuum in the d phase and this results in vacuum being applied to the teat end in the rest phase. So this leaves the question how do the teat get a true rest phase? Well what actually happens is the milk going out of the claw piece up the milk tube to the milk line actually blocks off the vacuum getting to the teat end. This is why 4x0 in my opinion is better for the cows teat as it shuts off vacuum completely to the cow. Having an alternating pulse of two teat milking and two at rest cannot achieve this.

kowtow · 23-10-2014 01:28PM

Viewtodiefor wrote: »

This is why 4x0 in my opinion is better for the cows teat as it shuts off vacuum completely to the cow. Having an alternating pulse of two teat milking and two at rest cannot achieve this.

So the bigger slug of milk from simultaneous pulsation does the job?

Out of interest we have a problem, potentially, with too much vacuum at the teat end - we're experimenting with pulsation at the moment to cure it. Haven't put a tester on it yet but we have reduced the overall vacuum level to 44 or less. My instinct is that the pulsator is not allowing the (new) liners to relax enough and shut off the vacuum.

Would love to hear peoples ideas on this.

Viewtodiefor · 23-10-2014 01:34PM

mahoney_j wrote: »

Have you been in a Gea parlour or full wood????.ive had lots of lads to see my parlour since it was installed and virtually everyone was well impressed with build quality quality of materials used ,layout and functionality of equipment in comparison to a dairy master parlour of similar spec and virtually all wanted away from 4x0 pulsation.ad for lots of plastic in a Gea ,there isn't I have one.joiners are all ss couplings ,any dm I saw there plastic and feedback from guys using them is that they warp from everyday hotwash and need replacing every 3 years .

Mj I never said your westfalia was in any way bad I'm sure it works perfectly fine. I've spoken to loads of lads with all different types of parlour and in general they are very happy. I do think gea could have a better finish on their parlours they look a little bit mis mash. You keep harping on about dairymaster as if you have an axe to grind?? From what I can see and lads I've spoken to their parlours are excellent also and very user friendly. You actually have to lift a gea claw for vacuum but the dairymaster one comes on and drops into your hand as soon as the swing over arm crosses centre of pit. Dairymaster also do not use plastic couplings they use stainless trick over ends to join their lines

Viewtodiefor · 23-10-2014 01:46PM

kowtow wrote: »

So the bigger slug of milk from simultaneous pulsation does the job?

Out of interest we have a problem, potentially, with too much vacuum at the teat end - we're experimenting with pulsation at the moment to cure it. Haven't put a tester on it yet but we have reduced the overall vacuum level to 44 or less. My instinct is that the pulsator is not allowing the (new) liners to relax enough and shut off the vacuum.

Would love to hear peoples ideas on this.

Why do you think you have too high teat end vacuum? What type of relays have you?

mahoney_j · 23-10-2014 01:49PM

Viewtodiefor wrote: »

Mj I never said your westfalia was in any way bad I'm sure it works perfectly fine. I've spoken to loads of lads with all different types of parlour and in general they are very happy. I do think gea could have a better finish on their parlours they look a little bit mis mash. You keep harping on about dairymaster as if you have an axe to grind?? From what I can see and lads I've spoken to their parlours are excellent also and very user friendly. You actually have to lift a gea claw for vacuum but the dairymaster one comes on and drops into your hand as soon as the swing over arm crosses centre of pit. Dairymaster also do not use plastic couplings they use stainless trick over ends to join their lines

No axe to grind with dm,my comments re them are what I found when researching parlours and from lads that had them.i find your comment re Gea finish to be mish mash very hard to believe and don't believe you've seen a completed one,your comment re vacume coming on on claw proves it.its incorrect.dont want to drag this thread onto parlour types but your comments re 4x0 and obvious dm preference lead me to believe you are some way involved with them,appologies if this is incorrect but it's the impression I'm getting.you talk to virtually any independent parlour engineer they are all of the impression that 2x2 is superior to 4xo

kowtow · 23-10-2014 01:57PM

Viewtodiefor wrote: »

Why do you think you have too high teat end vacuum? What type of relays have you?

We're very slowly putting back together an old parlour out of various bits ready for next year, but as it happens we already have a couple of heifers going through whose calves couldn't suck for one reason or another.

It might well be small teats, but on one in particular we get a ring around the back teats by the time she is milked out. She has no problem letting her milk down, rushes into the parlour and stands quietly to be milked.

We started with very old fashioned pulsation from the pump itself, to two relays, have since switched over to a bucket pulsator which is a bit long in the tooth.. am about to switch again to a new bucket pulsator to see if it makes a difference. The vacuum certainly *feels* more uncomfortable and persistent on the thumbs than - say - a dairy master cluster, but it might well be the shape of the liners not matching the thumbs... is not the most reliable test.

In due course we'll put a tester on it but am quite enjoying

Viewtodiefor · 23-10-2014 02:00PM

mahoney_j wrote: »

No axe to grind with dm,my comments re them are what I found when researching parlours and from lads that had them.i find your comment re Gea finish to be mish mash very hard to believe and don't believe you've seen a completed one,your comment re vacume coming on on claw proves it.its incorrect.dont want to drag this thread onto parlour types but your comments re 4x0 and obvious dm preference lead me to believe you are some way involved with them,appologies if this is incorrect but it's the impression I'm getting.you talk to virtually any independent parlour engineer they are all of the impression that 2x2 is superior to 4xo

Maybe mosh mash was wrong words just think they don't look as well as they should. So how does the vacuum come on ? Anyone I've seen its when you lift the claw. But what are they basing their impressions on? I'm not involved with anyone just from reading more park research articles I'm more and more convinced its better than 2x2.

_Brian · 23-10-2014 02:01PM

Viewtodiefor wrote: »

You are correct but what you left out is that the liner never completely closes off the vacuum in the d phase and this results in vacuum being applied to the teat end in the rest phase. So this leaves the question how do the teat get a true rest phase? Well what actually happens is the milk going out of the claw piece up the milk tube to the milk line actually blocks off the vacuum getting to the teat end. This is why 4x0 in my opinion is better for the cows teat as it shuts off vacuum completely to the cow. Having an alternating pulse of two teat milking and two at rest cannot achieve this.

We'll have to disagree on that one..

Best practice is to have the milk smoothly exiting the claw continuously to avoid vacuum fluxuations.
this is why its advised to avoid long milk tubes with dips in them and to keep air bleeds in claws free so the air will help move the milk up the tubes.

Many, many more teat problems are repaired by changes AWAY from 4x0 to 2x2. I'm not saying 4x0 is awful, but it just isn't as efficient as 2x2.

kowtow wrote: »

So the bigger slug of milk from simultaneous pulsation does the job?

Out of interest we have a problem, potentially, with too much vacuum at the teat end - we're experimenting with pulsation at the moment to cure it. Haven't put a tester on it yet but we have reduced the overall vacuum level to 44 or less. My instinct is that the pulsator is not allowing the (new) liners to relax enough and shut off the vacuum.

Would love to hear peoples ideas on this.

How are you seeing a problem and why would you blame the machine?

Sooo many possibilities.
44 is quite low for a machine that's not low line and remember if you go too low thats bad too as it can result in liner slippage which also causes problems.

I've seen new liners pulled straight to the second ring, this tensions them too much.

Your pulsation could be gone wrong, this can result in short or no rest phases.
Is there a breather line fitted? could this be stuffed dirt/dust/mice/leaves

Damaged/leaking pulsation tubing affects the pulsation but also lets dirt into the pulsation system.

Airbleeds in claws are important, they move milk along and release vacuum in the claw to facilitate removal of the cluster, if the air bleed is blocked then the cluster needs to be dragged off resulting in milk "impacts" at teat tips which damages then quickly.

Niples in the shells/claw can get damaged or full of crap reducing air flow.

There are many problems that you just can't identify without testing it properly.

_Brian · 23-10-2014 02:06PM

kowtow wrote: »

We're very slowly putting back together an old parlour out of various bits ready for next year, but as it happens we already have a couple of heifers going through whose calves couldn't suck for one reason or another.

It might well be small teats, but on one in particular we get a ring around the back teats by the time she is milked out. She has no problem letting her milk down, rushes into the parlour and stands quietly to be milked.

We started with very old fashioned pulsation from the pump itself, to two relays, have since switched over to a bucket pulsator which is a bit long in the tooth.. am about to switch again to a new bucket pulsator to see if it makes a difference. The vacuum certainly *feels* more uncomfortable and persistent on the thumbs than - say - a dairy master cluster, but it might well be the shape of the liners not matching the thumbs... is not the most reliable test.

In due course we'll put a tester on it but am quite enjoying

STOP, STOP, STOP

If you put any value on your heifers don't be putting an old machine together from bits and pieces and then expecting anything but trouble.

It takes no time at all for blackspot to appear on a heifer and then you'll quickly be out the money to have a test or service done.

Milking machines are simple to put going, but that's not meaning its going properly. A bad machine essentially eats the milk from a cow's teat.

Viewtodiefor · 23-10-2014 02:15PM

Think al ot

_Brian wrote: »

We'll have to disagree on that one..

Best practice is to have the milk smoothly exiting the claw continuously to avoid vacuum fluxuations.
this is why its advised to avoid long milk tubes with dips in them and to keep air bleeds in claws free so the air will help move the milk up the tubes.

Many, many more teat problems are repaired by changes AWAY from 4x0 to 2x2. I'm not saying 4x0 is awful, but it just isn't as efficient as 2x2.

I Think it was more the teat problems were caused by incorrect machine set in older machines than the 4x0 pulsation. Why is over milking bad for a cow? Because the vacuum is not being shut off correctly. Yes it's good to have proper milk flow but that does nothing for the cow as she is not getting a proper rest on her teats therefor 4 milking together means milk flowing into bowl then up line creating a proper rest phase then vacuum applied again and the cycle begins again. Vacuum flucation is irrelevant as the teat are being properly rested on each closing of the liner. Of course 2x2 milks successfully aswell I'm not arguing that just I think there is no proof it is better.

How are you seeing a problem and why would you blame the machine?

Sooo many possibilities.
44 is quite low for a machine that's not low line and remember if you go too low thats bad too as it can result in liner slippage which also causes problems.

I've seen new liners pulled straight to the second ring, this tensions them too much.

Your pulsation could be gone wrong, this can result in short or no rest phases.
Is there a breather line fitted? could this be stuffed dirt/dust/mice/leaves

Damaged/leaking pulsation tubing affects the pulsation but also lets dirt into the pulsation system.

Airbleeds in claws are important, they move milk along and release vacuum in the claw to facilitate removal of the cluster, if the air bleed is blocked then the cluster needs to be dragged off resulting in milk "impacts" at teat tips which damages then quickly.

Niples in the shells/claw can get damaged or full of crap reducing air flow.

There are many problems that you just can't identify without testing it properly.

Cow Porter · 23-10-2014 02:23PM

Viewtodiefor wrote: »

Maybe mosh mash was wrong words just think they don't look as well as they should. So how does the vacuum come on ? Anyone I've seen its when you lift the claw. But what are they basing their impressions on? I'm not involved with anyone just from reading more park research articles I'm more and more convinced its better than 2x2.

What's miss mash about this parlour. To me they look very open and clear in the pit for the amount of equipment in it.

Choice of activation of vacuum, when swing over the machine, lifting the cluster, button attached to the milk tubeif you want it or use the green button on the display.

Moorepark research lol, very patriotic but I often wondered........

Re pvc vacuum line, is there much weight in the air in it to be under strain?

drafting vs dumpline

Comments