Living abroad: right to vote in next referendum

iwanttovote · 09-10-2014 08:20PM #1

I am interested in next year's referendum about legalising gay marriage. A bit of Googling showed me that since I am living abroad, I won't have any right to participate in this referendum.

I feel this is completely unfair and discriminatory. This is not like the local elections, or even to some extent the national elections, where it may be considered reasonable to forfeit your vote due to you not directly paying income tax. This is an important social referendum which will have long-term consequences on the country. I am still a citizen of Republic of Ireland and I feel it is my obligation to vote.

I chose to emigrate five years ago due to an absence of the industry I wanted to work in. This does not suddenly stop me being Irish or stop all the important social/religious issues I grew up (and will face when coming back) any less significant.

How can I guarantee my vote?

ted1 · 09-10-2014 08:23PM

iwanttovote wrote: »

I am interested in next year's referendum about legalising gay marriage. A bit of Googling showed me that since I am living abroad, I won't have any right to participate in this referendum.

I feel this is completely unfair and discriminatory. This is not like the local elections, or even to some extent the national elections, where it may be considered reasonable to forfeit your vote due to you not directly paying income tax. This is an important social referendum which will have long-term consequences on the country. I am still a citizen of Republic of Ireland and I feel it is my obligation to vote.

I chose to emigrate five years ago due to an absence of the industry I wanted to work in. This does not suddenly stop me being Irish or stop all the important social/religious issues I grew up (and will face when coming back) any less significant.

How can I guarantee my vote?

Move home. If your not in the country the law doesn't apply to you.
Failing that get a state job abroad, then you'll have a postal vote.

iwanttovote · 09-10-2014 08:27PM

ted1 wrote: »

Move home. If your not in the country the law doesn't apply to you.
Failing that get a state job abroad, then you'll have a postal vote.

I completely disagree with this attitude.

Where I live I don't even have the right to vote in national referendums. I'm politically voiceless due to the fact that I wanted try something different for a number of years before returning home.

ted1 · 09-10-2014 09:04PM

iwanttovote wrote: »

I completely disagree with this attitude.

Where I live I don't even have the right to vote in national referendums. I'm politically voiceless due to the fact that I wanted try something different for a number of years before returning home.

Because you live abroad, what happens in this country is of very little effect to you.

come back to Ireland be part of society, and then have your say. if your not in you can't win.

Godge · 10-10-2014 12:40AM

ted1 wrote: »

Because you live abroad, what happens in this country is of very little effect to you.

come back to Ireland be part of society, and then have your say. if your not in you can't win.

Agree, there are too many people who abandoned this country who want to run it from a remote distance.

Banjoxed · 10-10-2014 09:54AM

Godge wrote: »

Agree, there are too many people who abandoned this country who want to run it from a remote distance.

Curious though that Ireland is in a club of two along with Malta on votes for citizens abroad. Official Ireland wouldn't be as blasé as it is about emigration if citizens kept their vote on the same basis as every other normal democracy.

Annasopra · 10-10-2014 08:34PM

Its possible to fly back and vote but that is breaking the law.

ThisRegard · 10-10-2014 08:38PM

iwanttovote wrote: »

I completely disagree with this attitude.

Where I live I don't even have the right to vote in national referendums. I'm politically voiceless due to the fact that I wanted try something different for a number of years before returning home.

But how does the state know you'll ever return to live in the county at all?

I don't think it's right that people not living in the country get to vote on anything that affects the country, be it elections of any type or referendum. And I say that as someone who lived outside of the state for a while.

Sub_Merged · 11-10-2014 06:46AM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Its possible to fly back and vote but that is breaking the law.

Im not doubting you, but what law? if you're still on the voting register...

Fred Swanson · 12-10-2014 02:10AM

This post has been deleted.

hoodwinked · 12-10-2014 12:12PM

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

i looked this up recently as i am moving out of the electoral area of the person i want to vote for, i wanted to register at my parents address to vote, i was told by this person that i cannot as it is fraudulent, if i were to do this i could be in legal trouble if i was caught.

if the rules bolded below do not apply to you, you are committing fraud by saying you are resident when you are not and voting when you are not eligible to vote.

To be eligible to be included in the Register of Electors, you must:

Be at least 18 years old on the day the Register comes into force (15 February)
Have been ordinarily resident in the State on 1 September in the year preceding the coming into force of the Register.

Students living away from home while attending college have the choice of being registered at either their home address or their student residential address.

You must be registered at one address only and you must live at that address on 1 September before the register comes into force. If you live away from the address at which you are registered, you will need to contact the registration authority and give them your new address.

If you leave your address but you plan to return there within 18 months, you can continue to be registered there, as long you do not register at any other address.

also it specifically states:

Overseas voters

If you are an Irish citizen living abroad you cannot be entered on the Register of Electors. This means that you cannot vote in an election or referendum here in Ireland. (The only exception to this is in the case of Irish officials on duty abroad (and their spouses) who may register on the postal voters list).

From http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/elections_and_referenda/voting/registering_to_vote.html

MouseTail · 12-10-2014 07:20PM

This discussion formed part of the Constitutional Convention (they voted in favour). You can view updates and submissions at constitution.ie. There may very well be a referendum on this, but if there is, I can't see it being carried.

eire4 · 12-10-2014 08:48PM

iwanttovote wrote: »

I am interested in next year's referendum about legalising gay marriage. A bit of Googling showed me that since I am living abroad, I won't have any right to participate in this referendum.

I feel this is completely unfair and discriminatory. This is not like the local elections, or even to some extent the national elections, where it may be considered reasonable to forfeit your vote due to you not directly paying income tax. This is an important social referendum which will have long-term consequences on the country. I am still a citizen of Republic of Ireland and I feel it is my obligation to vote.

I chose to emigrate five years ago due to an absence of the industry I wanted to work in. This does not suddenly stop me being Irish or stop all the important social/religious issues I grew up (and will face when coming back) any less significant.

How can I guarantee my vote?

I hear you. There have been a number of threads touching on this topic. Personally unlike it seems quite a number of others here I would be in favour of Irish born citizens being allowed to vote in all elections and referendums.
Ireland is one of only a handful of countries who deny natural born citizens living abroad some form of right to vote.
For me I find it very hypocritical of Ireland always putting out the begging bowl to successful emigrants looking for money investment etc yet otherwise its sit down and shut up. You have no say here.
Reality is there could easily be an emigrant constituency set up in the Dail say with 3 seats that those living abroad could vote for. That way those living abroad get a say in Ireland but in no way distort the process. This would I believe be a real rallying point and incentive for some of the many highly talanted and successful Irish born living abroad to really come together and look at ways to help build a positive and successful Ireland.

I would be supportive of Irish born citizens living abroad being allowed to vote in Presidential elections and referendums as well.

Fred Swanson · 12-10-2014 08:59PM

This post has been deleted.

eire4 · 12-10-2014 09:03PM

Godge wrote: »

Agree, there are too many people who abandoned this country who want to run it from a remote distance.

Abandoned wow that is a very pejorative way to describe emigrants. Firstly please explain exactly what you mean rather then putting out blanket emotional statements like that. How exactly did many emigrants "abandon" Ireland? What exactly are they supposed to be doing in Ireland instead of emigrating?

Secondly It is clear that the current Irish government was very happy to see so many leave. We even had a minister encouraging people to emigrate in a letter. So if there was any abandoning going on here I would suggest it was on the part of the Irish government.

eire4 · 12-10-2014 09:30PM

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Wow how dare Irish citizens for wanting to vote for non mainstream parties. Do you actually have any facts to back up this statement that Irish emigrants vote as you suggest they do?
For instance here is one Ballotbox.ie which is a site supporting voting rights for Irish citizens living abroad. During the last presidential election they ran a race on their site and Michael D Higgins won with 41%.

In any case according to the most recent polls it seems 24% of the Irish electorate are inclined to vote Sinn Fein right now. The same as Fine Gael with no other party matching those numbers. Should we strike all those daring not to vote for mainstream parties from the electoral register?

Last time I checked the mainstream to use your word parties have not exactly covered themselves in glory when it comes to governing this country.

It has been estimated that there are in the region of 800,000 Irish born citizens currently living abroad.

iwanttovote · 13-10-2014 02:45PM

I think we should recognise that a lot of emigrants left Ireland, not because they are 'traitors' as some would suggest, but because of political, economical and social issues. We could make the argument that many of the people who stayed did so because they could, not because they are more patriotic than others. Their lifestyle choices may not have been ridiculed and scrutinised or their jobs may have been more secure. Obviously this doesn't apply to every single person in the country, but I think we can generalise a little.

The diaspora are as Irish as anybody else and should have some say in the direction that their country will take in the future. If we ignore their voices then the status quo is never challenged.

irelandrover · 13-10-2014 02:51PM

ted1 wrote: »

Because you live abroad, what happens in this country is of very little effect to you.

come back to Ireland be part of society, and then have your say. if your not in you can't win.

If this is the case then why is it only Irish citizens that can vote in referendum.

Foreign people living in Ireland who pay taxes and form part of society are not allowed to vote. Seems a huge double standard to me.

oscarBravo · 13-10-2014 03:30PM

iwanttovote wrote: »

I think we should recognise that a lot of emigrants left Ireland, not because they are 'traitors' as some would suggest...

Nobody has suggested that.

Del2005 · 13-10-2014 03:41PM

I've no problem with giving non residential citizens the vote once they pay some of their income taxes here. They want a say in how they want the country run then they need to be paying in, can't have a vote without the pain.

MouseTail · 13-10-2014 04:11PM

The famous no representation without taxation. One of the biggest arguments against the extension of the vote.

irelandrover · 13-10-2014 04:25PM

Del2005 wrote: »

I've no problem with giving non residential citizens the vote once they pay some of their income taxes here. They want a say in how they want the country run then they need to be paying in, can't have a vote without the pain.

Again, if this is your stance are you in favour of giving foreign citizens living in Ireland the right to vote?

iwanttovote · 13-10-2014 04:28PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

Nobody has suggested that.

Nobody on this thread thus far, but there seems to be a sentiment all the same and it goes hand in hand with the disenfranchisement of emigres.

Check out the Irish times article: Ireland Abandoners: Did it raise your ire, or a valid point? (I can't link to it because I'm a new user).

oscarBravo · 13-10-2014 04:30PM

iwanttovote wrote: »

Nobody on this thread thus far, but there seems to be a sentiment all the same and it goes hand in hand with the disenfranchisement of emigres.

Check out the Irish times article: Ireland Abandoners: Did it raise your ire, or a valid point? (I can't link to it because I'm a new user).

Does it call them traitors?

iwanttovote · 13-10-2014 04:34PM

Del2005 wrote: »

I've no problem with giving non residential citizens the vote once they pay some of their income taxes here. They want a say in how they want the country run then they need to be paying in, can't have a vote without the pain.

Many emigrants had done so for years as well as copious amounts of other taxes. If you take a break from labouring at home to go and try something new, should all their previous financial contributions to the state be annulled until their point of return? The point is, I'm not referring to local elections where it may affect a particular residence in the short term. I'm referring to national referendums which shape the direction of the country in the long term. All Irish citizens should be allowed to determine the future of their country.

iwanttovote · 13-10-2014 04:36PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

Does it call them traitors?

It definitely insinuates it.

eire4 · 13-10-2014 07:37PM

MouseTail wrote: »

The famous no representation without taxation. One of the biggest arguments against the extension of the vote.

And one of the biggest red herrings. Firstly anyone buying a product or service in Ireland is paying tax. But I assume your talking about income tax.

So based on what your suggesting then all the poor, unemployed, those who maybe cannot work because of an injury or disability, the homeless all these people should be not allowed to vote because they don't pay income tax. No thanks not the kind of idea I would be supporting.

How about people who do pay income tax but for various reasons receive more in welfare payments of different kinds. Should they be kicked off the voting rolls as well?

No thanks I think I would prefer to live in and push for an inclusive Ireland including our Irish born emigrants rather then the above.

eire4 · 13-10-2014 07:38PM

iwanttovote wrote: »

It definitely insinuates it.

and saying someone abandoned the country is hardly a neutral statement either.

Einhard · 13-10-2014 07:41PM

Godge wrote: »

Agree, there are too many people who abandoned this country who want to run it from a remote distance.

And there's a lot of people who had to leave this country because, in a very real sense, they were abandonded by this country. Seems people who are forced to leave are doubly damned- damned as dole scroungers etc if they say, damned as abandoning the place if they leave. Pretty sh1tty attitude in my opinion.

Del2005 · 13-10-2014 08:39PM

irelandrover wrote: »

Again, if this is your stance are you in favour of giving foreign citizens living in Ireland the right to vote?

If they qualify then yes, how they qualify is the problem. As they are actually living in the country they should have a more of a say than people not living here.

iwanttovote wrote: »

Many emigrants had done so for years as well as copious amounts of other taxes. If you take a break from labouring at home to go and try something new, should all their previous financial contributions to the state be annulled until their point of return? The point is, I'm not referring to local elections where it may affect a particular residence in the short term. I'm referring to national referendums which shape the direction of the country in the long term. All Irish citizens should be allowed to determine the future of their country.

Still think that if you want to vote after you've left the country there should be some responsibility on you to the country, by making it compulsory to pay income tax it means that people are contributing fully to the country.

eire4 · 13-10-2014 11:31PM

Del2005 wrote: »

If they qualify then yes, how they qualify is the problem. As they are actually living in the country they should have a more of a say than people not living here.

Still think that if you want to vote after you've left the country there should be some responsibility on you to the country, by making it compulsory to pay income tax it means that people are contributing fully to the country.

Ok so basically what your saying is that the poor the unemployed, those with disabilities that prevent them from working the homeless etc all these people who don't pay income tax have to be kicked of the voting rolls and have their right to vote taken away from them.

Now so far your saying all the above Irish residents are not allowed vote. How about those who do pay some income tax but receive back more in benefits from the government. Do you want to take away their right to vote also?

To say I disagree with the above policy would be an understatement. We have massive problems with our democratic process as it is and the over centralisation of power for instance. But if we enacted your policy and kicked all those people off the voting rolls where do we stop. Is there going to be a certain level of tax or income required before your allowed to vote next.

In my opinion instead of making our democracy less representative then it already is we need to look to expland it and encouraging the termendous potential that the many Irish born citizens living abroad hold is a positive way forward I believe. I feel that the different experiences and knowledge many emigrants have gained could be very valuable in helping rebuld our country in a positive way.

Living abroad: right to vote in next referendum

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