Living abroad: right to vote in next referendum

eire4

The Corinthian wrote: »

Pity no one other than you has suggested this would be how such a system would be implemented.

Were the government to introduce such a proposal, then all expats would be liable to declare their earnings abroad. That does not mean that they would have to pay if they don't earn enough, or anything - let alone that in not doing so they would be excluded from voting. That's your own invention; even the Americans don't do that - what they do is demand that you declare your income and if you qualify to pay, you pay and if not you don't. But if you don't declare it, you're in trouble and if you doc qualify to pay and don't pay, you're in trouble. And that trouble ends up meaning that you won't get your passport renewed, won't be able to vote from abroad and will end up being targeted for tax evasion if you repatriate. Nothing about having to pay tax to get the vote.

What you've introduced instead is a straw man that suits your argument. Some implementation that makes no sense and does not exist anywhere, so you can claim it could never be implemented.

Well this is nonsense to begin with. Of all expats, perhaps 1% may be in a position to help create jobs. Perhaps less. Most are not in any position to do so - how does a guy working in an Irish Pub in Kathmandu use his 'business connections' to create jobs in Ireland? Or another on a factory floor in BMW Bavaria leverage his vast network of high powered captains of industry to invest in Ireland? It's laughable.

And why would they? After all, you've not explained why having a vote would motivate us to do this? Why is such a vote so important to us doing any of this? Gratitude? Magically we'd feel included and show our patriotism? Wake up and smell the coffee, please.

You're using magical thinking in essence:

1. Some expats have business connections that can lead to jobs being created in Ireland.
2. They have the vote.
3. Magical stuff.
4. Jobs are created in Ireland.

All your arguments appear to be based on little else that straw men and magical thinking. You have failed to establish any tangible benefits. You have failed to explain why the vote would bring tangible benefits about. You have failed to address the flaws in such a plan, such as the possible introduction of expat taxation or even who would get a vote or not. You've repeatedly avoided the moral question of whether it makes sense to give the vote to those who will not suffer the consequences of such a vote.

You have nothing but a fantasy, because you personally want a right that you don't have because you emigrated. I emigrated too, but I don't share your sense of self entitlement.

One of the aspects that I find most interesting in this debate is how angry some who oppose the idea of emigrants voting are. I have no idea why this issue brings up such anger but it is interesting to note.


To address you last point which sadly sees you once agin resort to insults. My support for emigrant voting rights is in line with the current situation in well over 100 countries around the world including most of the EU which has some form of emigrant voting rights in most countries.
As for me personally again please cut out the insults you know nothing about my motivations. You have the opposite view to me on emigrant voting rights and I respect that no problem on my end.


As for emigrants who may be in a position to create jobs. Say 1% is correct well then I think that should be encouraged. But it is well beyond just straight up economic benefits. There are so many talanted Irish people in many different fields who's talents, abilities and connections can enhance life in Ireland. Be it in the worlds of culture, sport, entertainment etc there is much to be gained. Not everything has to be about massive high profile projects. Every little bit can help.


As for the taxation issue. As long as the right to vote is not tied to a person having to pay income tax be he a current resident or an emigrant then sure I am fine. My reading of your previous comments on the taxation issue lead me to believe you were of the belief that Irish born citizens currently living abroad would have to pay income tax before they could vote and I am strongly against the undemocratic idea that income tax payment be a requirement to vote for any Irish person be they living in Ireland or abroad.

eire4

It would seem there is some momentum in favour and toward granting voting rights to emigrants. The below is from RTE.


An Oireachtas committee has recommended that voting rights should be extended to Irish citizens living abroad.
The Joint Committee on European Affairs also recommended that an electoral commission be set up to establish how best such voting rights could be implemented.
Earlier this month, Minister of State for the Diaspora Jimmy Deenihan said that Irish citizens abroad should be able to vote in Irish Presidential elections.
The Constitutional Convention last year voted in favour of recommending the extension of voting rights in Presidential elections for Irish citizens who are resident outside of the State.
Now a cross-party committee has backed those calls.
During the course of its hearings, the committee was told Ireland is among a minority of EU member states that has not extended voting rights to citizens abroad.
It also heard there was a consensus from the academic literature that a case may eventually be taken to the European Court of Justice challenging the restriction.
The report was due to be published this morning and will be forwarded to the Taoiseach and the EU Commission

Godge

eire4 wrote: »

No I certainly do not have a magical veto on Irish government policy. I simply stated the point that to suggest that a persons ability to vote in elections in Ireland should be tied to whether they paid income tax or not is a very dangerous and highly undemocratic road to start upon as it would kick many current Irish residents off the electoral rolls never mind trying to extend such an undemocratic idea to emigrants. Now is it possible an Irish government could introduce such a proposal sure it could happen. Good luck to them trying to stay in government and push that through though. .

Nobody at all has suggested putting such a test on residents. For a start, residents pay VAT, car tax, etc. For second, residency implies a commitment.

Emigrants have neither, they don't want residency, so making them pay tax gives them half the commitment of residents.

eire4 wrote: »

As for benefits I would point to the business connections that can lead to jobs being created in Ireland. There is much talent and experience and knowledge in many areas be it business, arts, sports, entertainment which Irish emigrants could share and use to help to develop and grow various different fields. Currently the Irish government travels with the begging bowl out looking mostly for economic help from Irish emigrants but I believe this approach could be much more successful if we included our emigrants in Ireland and gave them a voice and I also believe there are benefits that could expand into other areas in Ireland not just economic as important as that obviously is.

So the intelligent Irish emigrants should help us poor thick Paddys left behind.

The Corinthian

eire4 wrote: »

One of the aspects that I find most interesting in this debate is how angry some who oppose the idea of emigrants voting are.

I find it interesting that you repeatedly seek to change the subject, fail to respond to points and that is what frustrates other posters.

As for emigrants who may be in a position to create jobs. Say 1% is correct well then I think that should be encouraged. But it is well beyond just straight up economic benefits. There are so many talanted Irish people in many different fields who's talents, abilities and connections can enhance life in Ireland. Be it in the worlds of culture, sport, entertainment etc there is much to be gained. Not everything has to be about massive high profile projects. Every little bit can help.

More vague, fuzzy benefits that are ultimately meaningless. You still fail to offer any solid argument.

As for the taxation issue. As long as the right to vote is not tied to a person having to pay income tax be he a current resident or an emigrant then sure I am fine. My reading of your previous comments on the taxation issue lead me to believe you were of the belief that Irish born citizens currently living abroad would have to pay income tax before they could vote and I am strongly against the undemocratic idea that income tax payment be a requirement to vote for any Irish person be they living in Ireland or abroad.

So you are OK with paying Irish income tax even though you don't live in Ireland? I'm not and I think you'll find most expats are not either.

You're really wasting people time here. You keep on talking about benefits and have failed to cite a solid one. Neither have you explained why the vote is necessary for such theoretical benefits. And then there are all the other points and flaws cited in previous posts that you still have failed to address without resorting to vagaries and straw men.

Are you actually going to do so or can we assume that we're going to go round in circles with all this nonsense.

eire4

Godge wrote: »

Nobody at all has suggested putting such a test on residents. For a start, residents pay VAT, car tax, etc. For second, residency implies a commitment.

Emigrants have neither, they don't want residency, so making them pay tax gives them half the commitment of residents.




So the intelligent Irish emigrants should help us poor thick Paddys left behind.

OK so your in favour of making the payment of income tax for one group of people a requirement for them to be allowed to vote. Personally I am against discriminating in this manner against one group of people. I would wonder is that even constitutional.




No unlike yourself I have never felt the need to insult and disparge. I simply feel there is much to be gained for us be engaging with our disapora in a positive way. There are many hightly talanted Irish people living in Ireland and outside Ireland.

eire4

The Corinthian wrote: »

I find it interesting that you repeatedly seek to change the subject, fail to respond to points and that is what frustrates other posters.

More vague, fuzzy benefits that are ultimately meaningless. You still fail to offer any solid argument.

So you are OK with paying Irish income tax even though you don't live in Ireland? I'm not and I think you'll find most expats are not either.

You're really wasting people time here. You keep on talking about benefits and have failed to cite a solid one. Neither have you explained why the vote is necessary for such theoretical benefits. And then there are all the other points and flaws cited in previous posts that you still have failed to address without resorting to vagaries and straw men.

Are you actually going to do so or can we assume that we're going to go round in circles with all this nonsense.

No I have answered questions. We just disagree its really that simple. I was making an observation on how angry some including yourself seem to be at the proposal of this thread in terms of emigrant voting rights.


To be clear I am not in favour of the payment of income tax been a requirement for any group of Irish people before they are allowed to vote. I would never support discrimination of that nature aimed at any section of Irish people.


As for your final comments. I have indeed answered what benefits I believe these voting rights would help enhance and why we should move in this direction. You strongly disagree with my opinions and that is fine.


It would seem there is some movement going in the direction of voting rights for those living abroad so it will be interesting to see how things move along in that regard.

The Corinthian

eire4 wrote: »

No I have answered questions. We just disagree its really that simple.

You've not though. For example, on the topic of benefits from such a move, you've repeatedly been asked for a solid answer on what these would be and how giving the vote would be linked to them, by me and others in this thread. All you've done is repeat the same vague, fuzzy response. You've not answered the question.

And this has been the case for pretty much all the questions.

I was making an observation on how angry some including yourself seem to be at the proposal of this thread in terms of emigrant voting rights.

Actually it's frustration at being given the runaround by you.

To be clear I am not in favour of the payment of income tax been a requirement for any group of Irish people before they are allowed to vote. I would never support discrimination of that nature aimed at any section of Irish people.

And that is a straw man, because no one has discussed that. What has discussed is the danger of expat taxation being introduced through such a vote. Not the same thing as has already been explained - yet you persist with your straw man.

As for your final comments. I have indeed answered what benefits I believe these voting rights would help enhance and why we should move in this direction. You strongly disagree with my opinions and that is fine.

No you have not. What you responded was:

As for emigrants who may be in a position to create jobs. Say 1% is correct well then I think that should be encouraged. But it is well beyond just straight up economic benefits. There are so many talanted Irish people in many different fields who's talents, abilities and connections can enhance life in Ireland. Be it in the worlds of culture, sport, entertainment etc there is much to be gained. Not everything has to be about massive high profile projects. Every little bit can help.

That's meaningless waffle about vague talent and jobs, despite your job creation benefit having been exposed as nonsense as over 99% of expats are in no position to do so, even if they wanted to (another point you've failed to answer).

And that they could "enhance life in Ireland"? What does that even mean - again all you do is spew out vagaries and magical thinking.

You've answered nothing.

exiztone

eire4 wrote: »

One of the aspects that I find most interesting in this debate is how angry some who oppose the idea of emigrants voting are. I have no idea why this issue brings up such anger but it is interesting to note.

I'm noticing this as well. I thought this was a non-issue, but scrolling through this thread I'm seeing people are ardently against it. Until reading boards.ie, it never even occured to me that I 'abandoned' the country. Are posters like Godge representative of the larger collective voice of the country? Are emigrants demonised then shunned for wanting to stay in touch with the country? Again, I didn't know this was a common opinion. I don't want to start a whole thing about this, but it seems a bit unfair. If you can't find work, is it really more patriotic to remain behind and claim the dole?

With that in mind, they might have a valid point about being out of touch with the country. I thought I was reasonably up to date with the goings on of the country. I come back a couple of times a year and try to read Irish newspapers online. Yet, this sentiment is a bit of surprise to me. I suppose it was never expressed to me within my own circles.

I saw sensible arguments about the large number of Irish passports and not paying tax. I can only speak for myself here: I may live abroad but I still feel part of Irish society. I moved abroad a few years ago but still feel quite connected to my home. My family and friends are there. It's kind of difficult to explain and like other people have said, we can't apply the same sentiment to every single emigrant. That said, I don't see any harm in giving the vote to emigrants. Most other EU countries do it. At least it could be given for the presidential election and maybe even referendums. It's just a personal preference to participate in this way. You might disagree with that, and that's fine. If the majority of citizen-residents are against reenfranchising emigrants, I respect that.

The Corinthian

exiztone wrote: »

Are emigrants demonised then shunned for wanting to stay in touch with the country?

No, but - as an emigrant myself - I can certainly empathize with resentment at giving a say to people when they won't have to pay for the consequences of that say. No one is being demonized or shunned, but it is a bit rich for us to want to have our cake and eat it too.

That said, I don't see any harm in giving the vote to emigrants. Most other EU countries do it.

Then read through the thread again; a number of reasons have been given why giving the vote to emigrants might cause harm. Eire4 has managed to avoid addressing any of these while only making a vague and fuzzy case in favour of such voting rights.

exiztone

The Corinthian wrote: »

Then read through the thread again; a number of reasons have been given why giving the vote to emigrants might cause harm.

Yeah, you might be right about it. I suppose I can vote again if I move back home, no harm really.

I was reading in the news recently that there might be a referendum next year regarding emigrants voting in the presidential elections. If it goes ahead, I guess we'll be seeing campaigns from both sides. It might be interesting to see how each camp will choose to argue.

Out of interest though. Do you believe that it will be impossible/insane to legitimately extend the vote to emigrants? It will be interesting to come back to this thread in a year's time and consider the discussion after the fact. You'll probably be able to say "I told you so"... but then again, it could be Eire4.

oscarBravo

The problem with allowing expats to vote in parliamentary elections is that our electoral system isn't designed for it (and the Constitution doesn't envisage it).

As for referendums, I can (for the sake of example) imagine a scenario where we're having a referendum on abortion rights, and a well-funded Christian conservative movement in the US mobilises the diaspora to vote against it - with no consequences for themselves.

The idea of being allowed to change the constitution of a country you don't live in doesn't sit all that well with me.

The Corinthian

exiztone wrote: »

Out of interest though. Do you believe that it will be impossible/insane to legitimately extend the vote to emigrants?

TBH, I could be convinced if given cogent arguments in favour that both deal with avoiding the potential problems associated with setting up such a right (e.g. who is even eligible?) and makes a reasonable case for why it would make sense to extend this right to expats in the first place.

Thing is that we've heard neither here, just a lot of fuzzy, magical waffle. So as things stand, it is pretty impossible/insane to legitimately extend the vote to emigrants.

Additionally, I could see it being used as a pretext to introduce emigrant taxation, which I absolutely have no intention of paying - it's bad enough that I was paying taxes in Ireland for substandard government services, but to emigrate, pay taxes in the country I moved to and then being expected to also pay taxes for substandard government services I don't even get, would be taking the piss completely.

And before you ask "why do you think the government would introduce such a money-grabbing measure of dubious democratic legitimacy?" Ask yourself; what do you think the automatic right to maintenance in the cohabitation act was really about?

The Corinthian

oscarBravo wrote: »

As for referendums, I can (for the sake of example) imagine a scenario where we're having a referendum on abortion rights, and a well-funded Christian conservative movement in the US mobilises the diaspora to vote against it - with no consequences for themselves.

Indeed, look at the reaction we got to some of the US based supporters of Libertas a few years back. I'd rather have no vote that see them get one too.

munchkin_utd

The Corinthian wrote: »

TBH, I could be convinced if given cogent arguments in favour that both deal with avoiding the potential problems associated with setting up such a right (e.g. who is even eligible?) and makes a reasonable case for why it would make sense to extend this right to expats in the first place.

Thing is that we've heard neither here, just a lot of fuzzy, magical waffle. So as things stand, it is pretty impossible/insane to legitimately extend the vote to emigrants.
<snip>

a ) (re, how can it work) - quite simple and just like other states, anyone who was once on the voting register and/or has a pps number can keep their vote or re-register to regain it. I'd lean towards the second measure maybe with a proof of schooling in the 26counties (ala german rule to get the vote abroad) as you'd have a few hundred thousand from the north suddenly registering in Louth if you could just register and then transfer it abroad without a decent residence check.

b ) why does it make sense. Well, why do all other EU countries allow emmigrants (and some like germany who do limit it to only emigrants, and not simple passport holders) do it? Why was there near actual riots by the Romanian population across Europe to get to vote last weekend?
Its actually nothing more than a measure to increase inclusion of those who have left their homeland. You can't realy monitise it, but it is telling that every other country in the EU allows emigrants the vote but Ireland has to see a pay back in pounds, and now euros before seeing it as a positive thing.
It's also following a precident that already diplomats and other irish civil servants can vote abroad since relatively recently.

Theres an argument that allowing votes to emmigrants might twist the result of an election as a single vote may change everything. Thats true, but, if its so important that everyone have their vote, then why were elections always held on a Thursday when young voters would be away off in college. Thats 10s of thousands of votes missing from many elections over the years and no doubt influenced a close call or two.
Of course the validity of the actual register in the first place is dubious, as theres many working and living elsewhere in the 26counties and up north still illegally registered in their home place. I know of one lad who left in 1995 and is still registered to vote at his parents place, but he isnt the only one, theres 10s of thousands across the country you can be sure.
Adding emmigrants on top of that isn't a case of 2 wrongs making a right, but if its such a matter of importance that one vote made by someone living outside of the constituency cannot be allowed to skew an election, then its a little rich to say that adding a few emmigrants to the voting register would break the already broken system which already is skewed by having many non residents voting in the wrong constituency.

eire4

oscarBravo wrote: »

The problem with allowing expats to vote in parliamentary elections is that our electoral system isn't designed for it (and the Constitution doesn't envisage it).

As for referendums, I can (for the sake of example) imagine a scenario where we're having a referendum on abortion rights, and a well-funded Christian conservative movement in the US mobilises the diaspora to vote against it - with no consequences for themselves.

The idea of being allowed to change the constitution of a country you don't live in doesn't sit all that well with me.

I could definitely see a scenario like what you present occuring if a referendum on a topic like abortion was up for a vote. Although it is also possible that if such a scenario did occur it could very well rebound against such a group as I imagine a great many Irish people would not like to be told what to do by an organization of the nature that you describe. It certainly is an interesting possible scenario.
Personally even allowing fo the type of scenario you present being possible I am still in favour of emigrant voting rights in a referedum like that.

Godge

eire4 wrote: »

I could definitely see a scenario like what you present occuring if a referendum on a topic like abortion was up for a vote. Although it is also possible that if such a scenario did occur it could very well rebound against such a group as I imagine a great many Irish people would not like to be told what to do by an organization of the nature that you describe. It certainly is an interesting possible scenario.
Personally even allowing fo the type of scenario you present being possible I am still in favour of emigrant voting rights in a referedum like that.

Why?

The number of people in the US eligible for Irish citizenship and therefore the vote in a referendum outweigh the electorate in Ireland so it wouldn't matter what Irish people living in Ireland decide, the Christian right in America would determine our laws.

This goes to the fundamental point of my objection to voting rights for those who do not live here. There are no consequences for them, the consequences are for us who live here.

What if there was a referendum to increase taxation on workers in Ireland so that pensions could be paid to all Irish citizens around the world. Again, because there are so many citizens outside the country, this referendum could be passed and those of us working here would have to pay.

I would guess that you have a particular view about one or two social issues and you believe that the backward Irish living here should be overruled by the enlightened emigrants.

eire4

Godge wrote: »

Why?

The number of people in the US eligible for Irish citizenship and therefore the vote in a referendum outweigh the electorate in Ireland so it wouldn't matter what Irish people living in Ireland decide, the Christian right in America would determine our laws.

This goes to the fundamental point of my objection to voting rights for those who do not live here. There are no consequences for them, the consequences are for us who live here.

What if there was a referendum to increase taxation on workers in Ireland so that pensions could be paid to all Irish citizens around the world. Again, because there are so many citizens outside the country, this referendum could be passed and those of us working here would have to pay.

I would guess that you have a particular view about one or two social issues and you believe that the backward Irish living here should be overruled by the enlightened emigrants.

There is no question of every single person eligible to get an Irish passport being eligible to vote and over whelm any vote with sheer weight of numbers. There are estimated to be according to the Irish government to be about 800,000 Irish born citizens living abroad.


As for taxes that is the province of the Dail not the holding of referendums. As I proposed from a Dail representation standpoint I would suggest a seperate emigrant constituency that emigrants would vote for with say 3 seats so again nothing that could over whelm the Dail with numbers.


As for your guess about my opinions on any social issues if you have something to ask ask it. I have no interest in insulting other fellow Irish as a group by calling them unenlightened or backward. If that is how you feel of course that is your right but for me I think Ireland for being such a small country has a very intelligent and talanted population.

MouseTail

We have very clear legislation on electoral spending here, and broadcast coverage, but we cannot of course legislate for that abroad. I would fear for a scenario that Oscar bravo outlines, shudder at the thought of bottomless pocket right wing groups getting their mitts on campaigning for votes abroad on referenda like gay marriage, abortion, position of women in the home, blasphemy etc.

Godge

MouseTail wrote: »

We have very clear legislation on electoral spending here, and broadcast coverage, but we cannot of course legislate for that abroad. I would fear for a scenario that Oscar bravo outlines, shudder at the thought of bottomless pocket right wing groups getting their mitts on campaigning for votes abroad on referenda like gay marriage, abortion, position of women in the home, blasphemy etc.

It doesn't matter which side the groups abroad are on. We didn't get our independence just to hand the balance of power over to 800,000 people living abroad. We should be big enough and brave enough to make our own decisions without outside interference.

The Corinthian

munchkin_utd wrote: »

a ) (re, how can it work) - quite simple and just like other states, anyone who was once on the voting register and/or has a pps number can keep their vote or re-register to regain it. I'd lean towards the second measure maybe with a proof of schooling in the 26counties (ala german rule to get the vote abroad) as you'd have a few hundred thousand from the north suddenly registering in Louth if you could just register and then transfer it abroad without a decent residence check.

Honestly, that's by far the most realistic argument on that issue that's been made in this discussion to date and would have to admit that it comes pretty close, if not fully addresses, those points I made against eire4 on it.

b ) why does it make sense. Well, why do all other EU countries allow emmigrants (and some like germany who do limit it to only emigrants, and not simple passport holders) do it?

In fairness, the keeping up with the Jones' (or Müller's) argument isn't a terribly strong one.

Why was there near actual riots by the Romanian population across Europe to get to vote last weekend?

TBH, just because people riot over something doesn't make them right.

The question of whether it is morally right to give emigres a say in decisions that will not affect us, but affect those we left behind, still needs to be addressed, for example.

You can't realy monitise it

Well you can. You can tax the emigres, like the Americans (and Eritreans) do. For personal reasons, this is one reason why I oppose such a move. I left in part because I was fed up of living in a Mickey Mouse country where the my fellow citizens were more interested in parish pump politics than the greater, long-term good. I carried out the ultimate 'spoilt vote', I voted with my feet and left.

That too was my democratic right, and I don't want that that choice overturned because the gombeenmen in Lenster house want to grab a few more shekels to pay for their mistakes and salaries.

munchkin_utd

The Corinthian wrote: »

<snip>
TBH, just because people riot over something doesn't make them right.

The question of whether it is morally right to give emigres a say in decisions that will not affect us, but affect those we left behind, still needs to be addressed, for example.
<snip>

just to address this specific issue, the progressive euro leaning candidate (who by the way has transformed his corner of Romania into a corruption free, quite nice place to live) won over the incumbent candidate, who is closely linked to corruption and mismanagement - most likely because of the votes cast abroad.

In the case of Romania, its been a positive thing that the emigrants few votes tipped a close election to install a candidate that will likely leave Romania in a much better position in the future.

I do find it slightly insulting though to hear that people consider those who have left have no interest in seeing Ireland get the best government and best policies to make the country a better place to live.
I'd say that those abroad have every bit as much interest as those at home, because if Ireland is less prosperous, or less attractive tax/health/cost of living/crimewise etc. ,then the option of moving back to friends and family is gone or much less a realistic option.

Heres a small quote from that guy from Romania that those crazy emigrants helped vote in :

What should your country look like?
In concrete terms, my vision is that of a strong and prosperous country, where everyone does his job, where projects are completed to standard, where the laws are valid for everyone, where politicians and institutions serve the people. Together, we can build the Romania we're hoping for.

seriously, without the folks abroad voting this lad wouldnt be President elect!

MouseTail

So in Romania the emigrants votes abroad skewed an election, and voted in a candidate that the residents of that country didn't want. He does not have a domestic mandate?

The Corinthian

munchkin_utd wrote: »

just to address this specific issue, the progressive euro leaning candidate (who by the way has transformed his corner of Romania into a corruption free, quite nice place to live) won over the incumbent candidate, who is closely linked to corruption and mismanagement - most likely because of the votes cast abroad.

Well you've not addressed the specific issue, as this was not whether emigres would do a better job of exercising our democratic powers than those back home, but whether it was morally right to give emigres a say in decisions that will not affect us, but affect those we left behind, in the first place.

If you want want to give democratic power to those better able to make the right decisions, then you're probably not discussing democracy at all, but technocracy.

Indeed, if that's what we want we'd be better off just handing power over to Berlin, as they'd likely do a better job at governing Ireland than we would.

Slot Machine

This simple question keeps coming up and it keeps being ignored: why should people who are not a part of Irish society and so will not be effected by the consequences of their vote be allowed one?

irelandrover

Slot Machine wrote: »

This simple question keeps coming up and it keeps being ignored: why should people who are not a part of Irish society and so will not be effected by the consequences of their vote be allowed one?

Because a lot of people only move abroad for a few years. Changes to the constitution are permanent and normally on pretty important topics.

Therefore these people will be affected by the consequences of the vote

The Corinthian

irelandrover wrote: »

Because a lot of people only move abroad for a few years. Changes to the constitution are permanent and normally on pretty important topics.

And a lot move abroad forever. How do you tell the difference? Do you put in a cut-off point where you lose the vote? What is that cut-off?

For example, I left Ireland a few months before the credit crisis hit. I missed out on crisis that followed, recession, much of the austerity and so on. Ireland's now exiting that recession. Six years of public policy I could have influenced without having to suffer the consequences of that influence. Six years of not actually being part of Irish society, beyond posting on Boards.ie.

And will I come back? Probably not. Neither will other Irish expats who swore they'd return, then met a local guy/girl, got married and started a family. Life, as the expression goes, its what happens while you're making plans.

irelandrover

The Corinthian wrote: »

And a lot move abroad forever. How do you tell the difference? Do you put in a cut-off point where you lose the vote? What is that cut-off?

For example, I left Ireland a few months before the credit crisis hit. I missed out on crisis that followed, recession, much of the austerity and so on. Ireland's now exiting that recession. Six years of public policy I could have influenced without having to suffer the consequences of that influence. Six years of not actually being part of Irish society, beyond posting on Boards.ie.

And will I come back? Probably not. Neither will other Irish expats who swore they'd return, then met a local guy/girl, got married and started a family. Life, as the expression goes, its what happens while you're making plans.

For the record I also live abroad and moved in 2007. I don't think I should be allowed vote in general elections/local elections/ presidential elections.

However I do think that expats should be allowed vote in referendums for a number of years after they leave Ireland. Probably 5 years. 5 years because I feel that if you are abroad longer then that the likelihood of returning to Ireland drops significantly. Obviously the length of time is up for debate.

eire4

The Corinthian wrote: »

Well you've not addressed the specific issue, as this was not whether emigres would do a better job of exercising our democratic powers than those back home, but whether it was morally right to give emigres a say in decisions that will not affect us, but affect those we left behind, in the first place.

If you want want to give democratic power to those better able to make the right decisions, then you're probably not discussing democracy at all, but technocracy.

Indeed, if that's what we want we'd be better off just handing power over to Berlin, as they'd likely do a better job at governing Ireland than we would.

I thought we already turned things over to Berlin after the bailout:)

eire4

Godge wrote: »

It doesn't matter which side the groups abroad are on. We didn't get our independence just to hand the balance of power over to 800,000 people living abroad. We should be big enough and brave enough to make our own decisions without outside interference.

We have turned over some over some of that decision making power to the EU over the years with various different treaties. Do you think we should leave the EU because outsiders are making decisions for us?

Godge

eire4 wrote: »

We have turned over some over some of that decision making power to the EU over the years with various different treaties. Do you think we should leave the EU because outsiders are making decisions for us?

Not the same.