Living abroad: right to vote in next referendum

Godge

eire4 wrote: »

I am afraid you need to read more carefully!
So as to avoid needlessly making the above mistake or maybe that was just the progression for you from telling me shut up when you discussed mature debate.


Speaking of sidestepping the issue. I will ask again. This principle of having to show you can provide benefits to the state before being allowed to vote which you it seems support. Do you propose having this principle extended to other sections of Irish citizens such as the unemployed, the poor or those who receive more in benefits?
Also why do any section of Irish citizens have to provide benefits to the state before being allowed to vote?

These are very clear questions which I ask again.

This is the third time that I will point you to the very clear answers to the very clear questions.

Maybe you will now answer the very clear question about tangible material benefits to the State that giving the vote to emigrants will give us.

Godge wrote: »

Again, you deliberately misunderstand or twist my words.

I have made it clear that those who are citizens and resident in this country have demonstrated their commitment to the state through their residency.

The question of commitment only arises in respect of those who chose to leave for whatever reason. Paying taxes is a demonstration of that commitment.

As for benefits, you are the one who keeps telling us that there are benefits to Ireland to giving the vote to emigrants but so far all you have identified is benefits to the emigrants and nothing for those who stayed.

The Corinthian

eire4 wrote: »

I suggest you read again.

What can I read agan which appears before I caught you out? All you've posted now is what you wrote after I pointed out that the 'insults' had nothing to do with me and when you presented them first you did so when discussing my supposed 'insults'. That some may have been Godge does not change the fact that none were mine, despite being the subject of your attack.

So I can read well enough to see that you've not only lied, but now you're attempting to further deceive.

These are very clear questions which I ask again.

No, Godge, I and others have repeatedly asked about the promised tangible benefits for several pages. Answer that and stop trying to change the subject.

eire4

The Corinthian wrote: »

What can I read agan which appears before I caught you out? All you've posted now is what you wrote after I pointed out that the 'insults' had nothing to do with me and when you presented them first you did so when discussing my supposed 'insults'. That some may have been Godge does not change the fact that none were mine, despite being the subject of your attack.

So I can read well enough to see that you've not only lied, but now you're attempting to further deceive.

No, Godge, I and others have repeatedly asked about the promised tangible benefits for several pages. Answer that and stop trying to change the subject.

Let me help you out a little by posting the original again for your benefit:



"there are too many people who abandoned this country"
"Non-residents have shown their lack of commitment by leaving "
"those who deserted Ireland" are some selections courtsey of Godge that I was pointing out as abusive and unacceptable.


For yourself I find it ironic you talk about having a mature debate and then tells me to shut up.


Very clearly there I identify the top insults against Irish emigrants as coming from Godge and the last one coming from you directed at me. Which has tended to be the breakdown with the insults from yourself and Godge. Yours mostly directed against me although we have now clarified that you also believe that those who emigrated from Ireland "abandoned" Ireland to use the pejorative phrase. So you have also now joined into Godge's invective towards Irish emigrants as well as directing pretty personal invective toward myself.




To return to your question I have repeatedly in posts answered your question of benefits to Ireland that I believe would result from returning the right to vote to Irish emigrants but given you asked so nicely I will again. Ireland has long sought and received economic benefits from its emigrants and contniues to do so today. This is only natural however asking for help and at the same time not allowing emigrants to vote is hardly the best way to encourage and motivate emigrants. Engage positively with our emigrants and we will see more positive outcomes for all our citizens at home and abroad. Now obviously only a smaller porotion of emigrants are in a position to make a positive financial impact which is also why it is important for emigrant voting. Right now through their economic abilities some Irish emigrants have an undemocratic advantage given the political access this money can buy. Giving the vote to Irish emigrants regardless of economic status gives all a voice. In addition there are very many highly talanted people in many fields from arts and entertainment to music to sports etc. Engaging with them and giving them back their voice in Ireland through the vote only enriches our country socially which is impotant also.


Now I will return again to my question which yourself and Godge have still not answered at all.


You both seem very focused on a certain section of Irish citizens having to provide benefits to the state before they can be allowed to vote. Do you propose to extend this principle of having to provide benefits to the state to be allowed to vote to other groups of Irish citizens say the unemployed, the poor, those who receive more in welfare then they pay in taxes?


Also why should a group of Irish people have to provide benefits to the state before being allowed to vote?




Irish people who have left Ireland have a stake in their country be it in terms of major social decisions or EU or other treaties that may get made via referendums. Be it welfare or education decisions. Be it consular polices and services. Many Irish leave on temporary work visas. One year work visas in places like Australia or the US are not uncommon. The central bank themselves say over 100,000 have returned since 2008. All people with a stake in our nation who are denied their voice in our democracy when abroad.

eire4

According to a UCC survey 71% of those living in Ireland supported an emigrant vote. When you combine this with the recent recommendation of the Joint Committee of EU affairs that emigrants should be granted the vote in both Dail and Presidential elections there is certainly momentum toward granting emigrant votes. It was noted that it was important that those living outside the state were given a stake in the affairs of their homeland.

Godge

eire4 wrote: »

Now I will return again to my question which yourself and Godge have still not answered at all.


You both seem very focused on a certain section of Irish citizens having to provide benefits to the state before they can be allowed to vote. Do you propose to extend this principle of having to provide benefits to the state to be allowed to vote to other groups of Irish citizens say the unemployed, the poor, those who receive more in welfare then they pay in taxes?


Also why should a group of Irish people have to provide benefits to the state before being allowed to vote?

.

That has been answered by me many many times.

The Corinthian

I'm not wasting any more time with your clearly deliberate obfuscation.

In short, you feel entitled to the right to vote. You have failed to give any tangible benefits (other than to yourself) in your having that vote, and have failed to address any other the other criticism that make such a right problematic, if not downright stupid. You've scored a clear fail here.

As you are only timewasting at this stage I think the discussion is pretty much over.

eire4

The Corinthian wrote: »

I'm not wasting any more time with your clearly deliberate obfuscation.

In short, you feel entitled to the right to vote. You have failed to give any tangible benefits (other than to yourself) in your having that vote, and have failed to address any other the other criticism that make such a right problematic, if not downright stupid. You've scored a clear fail here.

As you are only timewasting at this stage I think the discussion is pretty much over.

I guess this means your not going to answer the questions I asked? Pity I was very interested in your opinion.


In short this is not about me this is about Irish emigrants living abroad being allowed to vote in Ireland. Clearly my answers do not satisfy you. Sadly you once again resort to personal insults.

The Corinthian

Nice sidestepping and soapboxing :rolleyes:

munchkin_utd

theres an article in today Irish Times on why the vote should be extended to emmigrants, and an update on the current situation that should see a government decision in the immediate future on the issue of a vote in Presidental Elections.
http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/why-the-government-should-call-a-referendum-on-a-vote-for-irish-emigrants-1.2033076?page=1

munchkin_utd

another update on the matter from the Irish Times :

Referendum on emigrant vote ‘unlikely’ this year - Deenihan
Diaspora strategy to include initiatives to help Ireland connect with communities overseas

A referendum on whether to permit Irish citizens living overseas to vote in presidential elections is “unlikely” to be held this year, Minister of State for the Diaspora Jimmy Deenihan has said.
The decision on whether to hold a referendum was due to be made before Christmas, but the matter has not yet been discussed by Cabinet.

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/generation-emigration/referendum-on-emigrant-vote-unlikely-this-year-deenihan-1.2066892

Its probably not the highest concern on their agenda to get the referendum on voting from abroad, but the idea of reaching out to the diaspora and young people with an irish heritage in a similar way to Israel does with their exchange programmes is a great idea - but something for a different thread.

pajor

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Its possible to fly back and vote but that is breaking the law.

Had been wondering about this. Ah well.

Fred Swanson

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VinLieger

IF it were to happen it needs to be limited to people who were previous residents for a certain amount of time maybe 7 years? and have been registered while being resident in the country.
Also there needs to be a limitations on how long you can avail of it so as those who have zero intention of returning do not have a say. 5 years should be plenty and would give them a chance at at least one GE and possibly a presidential while living abroad.

The residential limitation is a deffinite requirement due to how many potential passport holders and citizens there are worldwide and this number actually dwarfs the current population of Ireland itself and opens up the door to grandchildren of Irish citizens with zero knowledge or intention to ever live here being given the ability to affect our national decisions.

MouseTail

pajor wrote: »

Had been wondering about this. Ah well.

You retain the legal right to vote for 18 months after emigration.

http://gettheboat2vote.com/

dizzymenace

i have a similar question. i'm going on erasmus on the 16th so i'll be doing a work placement for three weeks. is there any way i can vote, im not living abroad, it's just bad luck

oscarBravo

dizzymenace wrote: »

i have a similar question. i'm going on erasmus on the 16th so i'll be doing a work placement for three weeks. is there any way i can vote, im not living abroad, it's just bad luck

Probably not - it may have been possible to register for a postal vote, but it's almost certainly too late.

Fred Swanson

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InTheTrees

SO if Irish Citizenship doesn't entitle you to a vote then its down to residency in Ireland?

Do non Irish citizens who are permanent residents in Ireland get to vote?

I think its ridiculous that Irish Citizens are denied a vote on a social issue just because they're living abroad.

MouseTail

InTheTrees wrote: »

SO if Irish Citizenship doesn't entitle you to a vote then its down to residency in Ireland?

Do non Irish citizens who are permanent residents in Ireland get to vote?
.

Not on referenda
British citizens resident here can vote in Dail, European and local elections.
EU citizens resident here can vote in European and local elections
Non EU citizens can vote in local elections

delta_bravo

InTheTrees wrote: »

I think its ridiculous that Irish Citizens are denied a vote on a social issue just because they're living abroad.

It's the constitution rather than a social issue you're voting on. its not ridiculous you can't vote on it as you're not living here currently.

InTheTrees

delta_bravo wrote: »

It's the constitution rather than a social issue you're voting on. its not ridiculous you can't vote on it as you're not living here currently.

I think it is ridiculous.

A constitutional issue should be open for all citizens. fair enough that non-residents cant vote on local TD's. But constitutional issues should be open to all citizens.

johnnyskeleton

InTheTrees wrote:

I think its ridiculous that Irish Citizens are denied a vote on a social issue just because they're living abroad.

InTheTrees wrote: »

I think it is ridiculous.

A constitutional issue should be open for all citizens. fair enough that non-residents cant vote on local TD's. But constitutional issues should be open to all citizens.

You are not denied a voice and it is open to you to vote. But you have to go to the polling station in which you are registered. In the same way that students have to go home to vote etc.

I appreciate that there is significant time and expense to come back for the referendum, especially from Australia/USA etc. But you can make a rational choice as to how much your democratic voice means to you.

Suggesting that it would be a good thing to extend postal votes to Irish citizens abroad is one thing (there is a system for doing this if you are temporarily posted abroad AFAIK, but not if you are permanently resident abroad), but I don't think it is accurate to say that you are denied a vote.

Apart from anything else, postal voting is expensive and is paid for by the Irish tax payer.

Fred Swanson

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johnnyskeleton

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

That's a more difficult problem in that you have to be resident the year before to get on to the register.

I'd happily see the residency requirement removed for Irish citizens living abroad as regards constitutional referenda.

eire4

Had to shake my head at the arrogance and hypocrisy of Enda Kenny this week saying he would have the Irish government send ministers to Britain to try and persuade Irish voters there to vote to keep Britain in the EU. While of course at the same time continuing to block Irish born citizens living abroad from voting in Irish elections.

eire4

eire4 wrote: »

Had to shake my head at the arrogance and hypocrisy of Enda Kenny this week saying he would have the Irish government send ministers to Britain to try and persuade Irish voters there to vote to keep Britain in the EU. While of course at the same time continuing to block Irish born citizens living abroad from voting in Irish elections.

It's not hypocritical unless Kenny advocates people who are resident in Ireland but eligble to vote in the UK to get the train/plane over for the day to vote.

If anything, it completely backs up his own position on 'non-resident voting', that for you to be allowed to vote in a country's business, that you must be resident in that country.

Plenty of Irish (myself included) are in the UK, eligible to vote there and not at home.

eire4

Deleted User wrote: »

It's not hypocritical unless Kenny advocates people who are resident in Ireland but eligble to vote in the UK to get the train/plane over for the day to vote.

If anything, it completely backs up his own position on 'non-resident voting', that for you to be allowed to vote in a country's business, that you must be resident in that country.

Plenty of Irish (myself included) are in the UK, eligible to vote there and not at home.

I would say when Enda Kenny is part of a government denying Irish born citizens living abroad the right to vote in their own country but telling them how to vote in the country they do live in that is pretty hypocritical.

eire4

eire4 wrote: »

I would say when Enda Kenny is part of a government denying Irish born citizens living abroad the right to vote in their own country but telling them how to vote in the country they do live in that is pretty hypocritical.

You may say that, but it's patently incorrect.

Kenny and his government suggest that residency is what matters when it comes to votes, and not citizenship.

He is appealing to the Irish citizens resident in the UK to exercise their right to vote (based upon that residency) in a manner that benefits Ireland.

It is certainly not hypocritical. As I suggested, what would be hypocritical would be if Kenny encouraged Irish residents who were still eligible to vote in the UK to organise their opportunity to vote in the referendum.

You must have been registered to vote in the UK in the last 15 years and be eligible to vote in UK Parliamentary general elections and European Parliamentary elections.

eire4

Deleted User wrote: »

You may say that, but it's patently incorrect.

Kenny and his government suggest that residency is what matters when it comes to votes, and not citizenship.

He is appealing to the Irish citizens resident in the UK to exercise their right to vote (based upon that residency) in a manner that benefits Ireland.

It is certainly not hypocritical. As I suggested, what would be hypocritical would be if Kenny encouraged Irish residents who were still eligible to vote in the UK to organise their opportunity to vote in the referendum.

You have your opinion and I have mine. It is quite clear to me that a man who denies Irish born citizens living abroad to vote in Ireland yet is happy to tell the same people how to vote in another country where they do live is classic hypocrisy.


I could care less what Enda Kenny suggests is relevant when it comes to voting in Ireland. It is merely his opinion it does not make it so. As for his what benefits Ireland that is also a matter of opinion not fact just because Enda Kenny says it is so.

oscarBravo

eire4 wrote: »

You have your opinion and I have mine.

You do know it's possible for someone else's opinion to be right and yours wrong, yeah?

It is quite clear to me that a man who denies Irish born citizens living abroad to vote in Ireland yet is happy to tell the same people how to vote in another country where they do live is classic hypocrisy.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

If Enda Kenny tells people not to drink and drive, but drinks and drives, then that's classic hypocrisy. If Enda Kenny demands that British people in Ireland be allowed to vote in UK elections while denying Irish people in the UK the right to vote in Irish elections, that's classic hypocrisy. If Enda Kenny suggests that Irish people in the UK should vote in a way that he perceives to be good for Ireland, while complaining about British people in Ireland voting in ways that are good for the UK, that's classic hypocrisy.

What's not classic hypocrisy is the two utterly orthogonal concepts that you insist on conflating. You can have an opinion that it's classic hypocrisy, but it's an opinion that's wrong.