Formula 1 2014: Round 15 - Japanese Grand Prix (NO FOOTAGE OF THE CRASH ALLOWED)

06-10-2014 12:33PM

OSI wrote: »

Wasn't there someone saying last season that the younger drivers have little respect for the danger of the sport now because it's been so safe (relatively) since the loss of Senna, and this was leading to them making riskier moves and dangerous mistakes? Can't remember who said it, but I do remember thinking it was a valid point.

Can't remember anyone specifically saying it but I think I made the point as well. Dan Wheldon dying a few years was a shock for the likes of Button and Davidson who came up through the ranks with him because while Senna and Ratzenberger was fresh in the minds of those around them there's now a generation of drivers who came up with a generation ahead of them who all survived. One wonders with the younger drivers how much of it is bravado but seeing the way they race in some of the lower Formulas is a bit worrying. I haven't seen much old F3 and the like but clips I've seen of crashes they were generally amateurish stuff whereas now there seems to be a lot more risk-taking or at least a lot less quarter given.

06-10-2014 12:34PM

Poly wrote: »

With the technology in the cars now, surely they can remotely control the cars speed when under caution, I've been to go-cart tracks where they can do it.

The software they use can't differentiate between a backmarker and a competitor for DRS detection, ya really want to give them a remote for controlling the cars? :pac:

06-10-2014 01:20PM

Whatever about the safety and no driver having died in F1 in 20 years as Lauda said yesterday -

"We get used to it if nothing happens, and then suddenly we’re all surprised. We always have to be aware that motor racing is very dangerous."

A number of factors came together yesterday

- bad weather causing conditions where acqua-planing was likely
- Sutil crash
- tractor brought out to move car from Sutil crash
- Bianchi not seeing the double yellow flags waved (he did not slow down) - "Two yellow flags waved simultaneously denotes a hazard that wholly or partly blocks the racing surface. This informs the driver that there may be marshals on the track and to prepare to stop, if necessary."
- Maybe didn't see flags due to the darkness (race delayed by 2 hours)
- Bianchi crash at same corner as Sutil and collides with tractor

Myrddin · 06-10-2014 01:32PM

They say hindsight is 20x20 vision & all that, but it's an important factor in learning from mistakes too. This accident was the culmination of several events that took place (rain, light fading, visibility) etc & I don't think there's solely one aspect that's to blame. But, in hindsight, should the race have been ran earlier? Yes, I think it should. I know that a lot of money/tv scheduling/ticket sales/spectators etc would all be put out by this change, but the fact is, if the race was ran two hours beforehand, it's likely that Jules would be on his way to Russia now.

In future, I think these Asian races have to suit our time schedules over here less & less, to stop putting pressure on drivers in terms if weather & dying light. Is it nice getting up at 6am on a Sunday to watch a race live? No of course not, but I can say one thing, I'd happily get up even earlier if it makes things any easier, or any safer for the people involved in F1. It's a sport/entertainment...we don't want to see people hurt like this. Yes by its very nature, F1 is dangerous, & that will never change...but do we have to add fuel to the fire by putting our own comforts & things like money in front of that safety?

This all sounds very knee-jerk I'd imagine, & yes these incidents are extremely rare. But that doesn't lessen the fact that Jules is in a very bad way right now. Would it really have mattered if I had to get up at 4am to watch this race? Would it really have mattered if half the people going missed a part of the race to have it start earlier? Would it really have mattered if whatever was scheduled on the tv had to be changed slightly? No, not compared to driver safety...nothing else matters.

flazio · 06-10-2014 02:08PM

When Suzuka was the season closer back in the 90s I used to love sneaking into the front room to watch the race in the early hours. Made me feel like a real fan.

06-10-2014 02:53PM

The vehicles and race timing have been flagged numerous times before so talking about them isn't knee-jerking IMO.

recyclebin · 06-10-2014 03:01PM

Why is the guy waving a green flag right at the incident?

06-10-2014 03:17PM

that was a terrrible crash. went though the tractor.

_rebelkid · 06-10-2014 03:24PM

The fact that Jules is still alive is testament to the safety improvements in the sport. That crash not 10 years ago, would have been fatal.

For anyone that doesn't want to watch it, the force was sufficient to lift the rear of the recovery tractor.

wotswattage · 06-10-2014 03:26PM

You see these types of barriers on motorway maintenance vehicles and I'm sure I've seen them on safety vehicles for oval tracks in the states too (though I can't find any evidence of the oval track ones). Rather than fitting them to the diggers themselves they could be placed on the side of a blocker vehicle which could move along with the digger.

PS Wishing Jules a full + speedy recovery

Tippex · 06-10-2014 03:30PM

I can say I am glad the FIA / FOM have not shown the footage. I have just seen what was recorded by someone in the crowd and it is horrendous.
I totally agree with the mods here about not allowing the links to the images or footage.

I really hope Jules pulls through this and if he does based on the footage I am amazed that he has the chance to pull through.

_rebelkid · 06-10-2014 03:33PM

To be honest, I don't think the tractor being in track was the problem. If it wasn't there, Bianchi was going through the Marshall post and fencing, and would have kept going such was the momentum. The yellow flags started just at the entry to Dunlop. That is where Bianchi started to lose it I feel. He was further right than Sutil, and Sutil lost it on exit of the first apex of Dunlop. Bianchi would have been lifting there, possibly braking. Whatever the case, the area he went through was a point where a river forms across the track. That caught Sutil out, and more than likely caught Jules, even more so with the rapid increase in rain.

Redo91 · 06-10-2014 03:37PM

NO ASKING FOR VIDEO LINKS

06-10-2014 03:47PM

_rebelkid wrote: »

To be honest, I don't think the tractor being in track was the problem. If it wasn't there, Bianchi was going through the Marshall post and fencing, and would have kept going such was the momentum. The yellow flags started just at the entry to Dunlop. That is where Bianchi started to lose it I feel. He was further right than Sutil, and Sutil lost it on exit of the first apex of Dunlop. Bianchi would have been lifting there, possibly braking. Whatever the case, the area he went through was a point where a river forms across the track. That caught Sutil out, and more than likely caught Jules, even more so with the rapid increase in rain.

I haven't seen the video but the marshal post walls are perfectly adequate for slowing down a car just as much as any other wall/barrier.

_rebelkid · 06-10-2014 03:56PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I haven't seen the video but the marshal post walls are perfectly adequate for slowing down a car just as much as any other wall/barrier.

Just looking again at the map, he actually would have bounced off a barrier, and may have gone through the fence out onto the chicane behind.

Tippex · 06-10-2014 03:57PM

Redo91 wrote: »

Where did you guys find the footage? I can't come across it anywhere.

It was up on youtube but FOM have done a great job and it is down as quick as it was put up.

I have to say that I was totally shocked at what I saw. The JCB had sutil's car raised and was starting to reverse and Bianchi's car came in like a missile straight under the back of the jcb hitting it hard enough that it lifted the jcb.

To be honest it is not something I would recommend for someone to actually go looking for.

Bianchi's car was never hitting the wall where it went off the track it was going straight through the gap. If the JCB was'nt there I honestly don't know what he would have hit but whatever it would have been he was hitting it head on.

SnowDrifts · 06-10-2014 03:57PM

That really was some impact. Wasn't expecting Bianchi's car to be travelling at such speeds when it hit the tractor. With the FIA's desire to replace gravel traps with tarmac run off's, I wonder would this be an argument against it. Gravel slows cars down when the track is saturated just as well as in the dry.

06-10-2014 04:09PM

_rebelkid wrote: »

Just looking again at the map, he actually would have bounced off a barrier, and may have gone through the fence out onto the chicane behind.

Which map? I'd be surprised if they have the barriers set up that poorly.
Also surprised at how he seems to be going completely straight the whole way, I assumed he would've been spinning after aquaplaning so much earlier.

TouchingVirus · 06-10-2014 04:28PM

He gave that tractor such a bang it's not difficult to see why he is in so much trouble right now. It's very sad and I'm sure there are lessons to be learned from it. I only hope that he pulls through and this isn't another "learn after somebody passes away" thing like so many other learning experiences in F1. #ForzaJules

iano.p · 06-10-2014 04:42PM

Hope to god he makes a full recovery. Why was the marshals up on the stand waving the green flag.

v3ttel · 06-10-2014 04:46PM

Wow, the impact is unbelievable. What the hell is the marshal doing waving a green flag about 10 meters away from the recovery vehicle? He continues to flutter even a couple of seconds after Bianchi's impact There has to be a serious investigation into that. It was supposed to be double waved yellows I thought?

Hope to God that he is ok and will make a full recovery. #ForzaJules

muckwarrior · 06-10-2014 04:51PM

A lot of people talking about somehow making emergency vehicles safer if impacted, but that wouldn't address the fact that a car could still mow down a marshall. What's needed is a mechanism to somehow reliably slow down the cars in a certain area to the extent that there's no risk of a car losing control. As always, easier said than done.

Myrddin · 06-10-2014 04:57PM

v3ttel wrote: »

Wow, the impact is unbelievable.

It really is bad isn't it

cherryghost · 06-10-2014 05:10PM

Just seen the crash, jesus christ, so unlucky. Thoughts with the family and friends.

macpac26 · 06-10-2014 05:12PM

Deeply disturbing accident

Absolutely horrible.

Thoughts with Jules and his family #ForzaJules

06-10-2014 05:13PM

Tippex wrote: »

Bianchi's car was never hitting the wall where it went off the track it was going straight through the gap. If the JCB was'nt there I honestly don't know what he would have hit but whatever it would have been he was hitting it head on.

surely that gap was only there to let the jcb access and it wasn't there beforehand?

v3ttel · 06-10-2014 05:20PM

Myrddin wrote: »

It really is bad isn't it

Afraid so. It shows what an amazing job the barriers do to to absorb all that energy in normal circumstances.

I hope lessons can be learned from this so the recovery vehicles can effectively become mobile techpro barriers in future when on track (easy to say in hindsight) and that Bianchi makes a full recovery.

#ForzaJules

_rebelkid · 06-10-2014 05:32PM

muckwarrior wrote: »

A lot of people talking about somehow making emergency vehicles safer if impacted, but that wouldn't address the fact that a car could still mow down a marshall. What's needed is a mechanism to somehow reliably slow down the cars in a certain area to the extent that there's no risk of a car losing control. As always, easier said than done.

Le Man's Code 60 zones worked well. Drivers have to engage pit limiter at a certain point before and incident, and can disengage after. F1 tracks are a lot shorter though. But the premise works.

Frank Bullitt · 06-10-2014 05:38PM

Saw the accident this morning, I am astonished he wasn't killed outright!

ScumLord · 06-10-2014 05:40PM

I don't know that they could realistically make the recovery vehicles mobile crash barriers. From what I've heard in the past the service roads aren't all that wide and you'd need to add a metre or two of protection to a service vehicle to make it any ways safe and even then I'd have my doubts it would work without it being done at the manufacturers level.

I've always wondered why they don't use those large construction cranes you see on large building projects. Especially in the older tighter tracks where space is at a premium. As they don't have to lift all that much weight they could possibly make the arms much longer. On some tracks maybe 3 or 4 strategically place cranes could cover the majority of the track?

I suppose people might think they'd look ugly but there wouldn't be any need for them to be tall, they'd just need to be tall enough to clear whatever walls are on the track. Still, it would more than likely cost a few million per track.

Maybe they just wouldn't be able to cover enough of the track to make them financially viable. F1 is a TV spectacle which is what forces tracks to do dangerous work during a race where in a smaller league without TV coverage constraints they could easily just stop the race while they do the dangerous work and continue after the tracks safe again.

Formula 1 2014: Round 15 - Japanese Grand Prix (NO FOOTAGE OF THE CRASH ALLOWED)

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