Is feminism a dirty word?

Shenshen · 04-10-2014 09:51AM

I think the problem with the word "feminism" is that it's a label anybody can use if they feel like it. So you end up with people who actually are blatant man-haters labelling themselves with the same word as people who are really concerned about gender equality and will speak up for both genders.

Growing up, the feminist movement I witnessed fought for the right of prostitutes to have their profession legally recognised, they fought for the rights of unmarried fathers to get legislation that will guarantee them access to their children and some rights in their upbringing, they fought for men getting the same rights to parental leave as women, they fought for tax laws to be changed so that if a couple decided the woman wants to go back to work and he would stay home to look after the kids that would not cost them extra, and they fought internationally for the practice of female and male circumcision to be abandoned.

Since then, I've been to a good few other countries and seen a good few other "flavours" of feminism - not all of them pleasant at all.

To me, the word will remain to mean a movement for gender equality, not a promotion of women over men. In my eyes, it's a movement that should liberate both males and females from outdated and damaging gender-specific roles.
But even that notion still has its opponents.

KomradeBishop · 04-10-2014 10:59AM

Where do people get their exposure to feminists, that ends up building a stereotype of them, as negative/sexist?

I tend to give benefit of the doubt, that it's more a vocal minority - probably mostly online - that ends up giving that bad impression, but it'd be interesting to hear how others develop their impression.

lazybones32 · 04-10-2014 11:12AM

Minera wrote: »

I recently watched the video of Emma Watson making a speech about He for She at the U.N. and one of her of her points albeit not the main one, was feminism or being a feminist has certain connotations attatched to it.

By that I mean are both men and women afraid of saying they support gender equality for fear of being labelled as anti men?

What do board.ie members think of this would you hesitate to say that you are for or against feminism or would you hesitate in giving your opinion others for fear of being ridiculed?

I never hesitate to say that I am anti-feminism (on-line or irl) and I'm sometimes met with the same shocked look until I explain myself.

Feminism is about advancing political issues that pertain to women and has nothing to do with equality. It is nothing to do whatsoever with equality but certain women want to enjoy the perceived benefits they think are the exclusive domain of men, without accepting the responsibility that comes with them.

I think a lot of the first-world women who subscribe to feminism do so because of their own insecurities and not because they are discriminated against in health, education, employment etc., because there are plenty of Public Bodies/Institutions willing to fight your corner if you do suffer discrimination in these areas.

I ask you OP, if you are a feminist and what discrimination you have personally experienced on account of your gender?

lazybones32 · 04-10-2014 11:15AM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Where do people get their exposure to feminists, that ends up building a stereotype of them, as negative/sexist?

I tend to give benefit of the doubt, that it's more a vocal minority - probably mostly online - that ends up giving that bad impression, but it'd be interesting to hear how others develop their impression.

Read feminist literature and experience it for yourself. The First-Wave feminists are the Founding Mothers of feminism and their bile is the basis for the current wave.

shruikan2553 · 04-10-2014 11:15AM

Many feminist groups seem to just be looking for some way to feel oppressed and that their failures are not their fault but are part of some conspiracy against them.

KomradeBishop · 04-10-2014 11:27AM

lazybones32 wrote: »

Read feminist literature and experience it for yourself. The First-Wave feminists are the Founding Mothers of feminism and their bile is the basis for the current wave.

Problem there, is how do you tell when some of the literature may just be a vocal minority?

Are there good examples of such literature - or other popular resources on feminism? (either on the crazy/sexist end, or on the reasonable/egalitarian end?)

Czarcasm · 04-10-2014 12:16PM

I think feminism has always been a good thing for women. I think some people have a problem with it because nowadays, with the Internet, we're being bombarded with some of the more asinine elements of society that claim their behaviour, or their thought processes or whatever, are based on their idea of feminism. Ideas have become very individualistic and selfish, and anyone can say what they like and call themselves feminist (the young girl with the funky ideas about only maintaining 10% of the male population in her new world, gets more worldwide coverage than women here in this country who still have fcukall say over their own reproductive rights). There's definitely something wrong there.

It's why I don't particularly care much for feminism, or any other kind of 'ism' for that matter. People are of course entitled to advocate for what and who they want, by whatever means necessary (peacefully would be nice), but because I cannot identify with any of these ideologies, I'll conserve my energy for those people in my local community whom I can actually help, as opposed to some cause on the other side of the planet that I have no clue about, and is unlikely ever to affect me personally.

I'm selfish and individualistic like that...

smurgen · 04-10-2014 12:21PM

Unless you've some sort of problem I don't think you really need to gravitate towards such groups or labels. I'm not fond of feminism the way I'm not fond of ladishness.I just don't get either. I see women as equal and I think they should be be treated the same as me. The same rewards for good behaviour and same punishment for bad behaviour.

lazybones32 · 04-10-2014 12:32PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Problem there, is how do you tell when some of the literature may just be a vocal minority?

Are there good examples of such literature - or other popular resources on feminism? (either on the crazy/sexist end, or on the reasonable/egalitarian end?)

Anything by Valerie Solanas ("eradicate men") or Germaine Greer ("taste your own menstrual blood") would be a decent starter for the more radicalised/militant view.

smurgen · 04-10-2014 12:35PM

lazybones32 wrote: »

Anything by Valerie Solanas ("eradicate men") or Germaine Greer ("taste your own menstrual blood") would be a decent starter for the more radicalised/militant view.

Those women have psychological problems and are not representative of most women I'd imagine.

steddyeddy · 04-10-2014 12:52PM

Minera wrote: »

I recently watched the video of Emma Watson making a speech about He for She at the U.N. and one of her of her points albeit not the main one, was feminism or being a feminist has certain connotations attatched to it.

By that I mean are both men and women afraid of saying they support gender equality for fear of being labelled as anti men?

What do board.ie members think of this would you hesitate to say that you are for or against feminism or would you hesitate in giving your opinion others for fear of being ridiculed?

Why not call it gender equality and not feminism? That implies duty to only one gender.

Carlos Orange · 04-10-2014 12:57PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Why not call it gender equality and not feminism? That implies duty to only one gender.

She was launching a campaign called He for She......

RDM_83 again · 04-10-2014 01:10PM

jill_valentine wrote: »

Have a look at any thread about feminism in AH and see how long it takes posters with chips on their shoulders - AH has a massive readership but you will see the same names every time - to take over and dissolve it into a conversation about men's rights or what feminism "actually" means, despite what the women and feminists there are actually telling them. They will do this without any self awareness whatsoever, even as they start talking about why it should be called "equalism"

Whats wrong with actually working out what Feminism actually means.
I mean when you talk about nearly any other major social movement its pretty easy to work out what sub-set someone is coming from and you can make a cohesive argument for and against.

The sheer broadness of the term feminism means that it essentially means nothing unless you pin down the specifics.

For example in a 1st or 2nd wave (or pre1970's/80's) context in western europe or the present day in other parts of the world, I could legitimately call myself a feminist because I believe in absolute equality between genders in terms of the law and franchise, the equality opportunity in terms of education and employment, and freedom from judgmentq for confirming to traditional gender roles.

At the same time I could be considered as an "anti-feminist" in that I don't believe that many of the issues raised by current Western feminism are coming from a desire to increase equality or protection of rights instead many of them seem to be about self-interest while ignoring issues that would be of greater importance to a true gender equality movement.

smurgen · 04-10-2014 01:36PM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Whats wrong with actually working out what Feminism actually means.
I mean when you talk about nearly any other major social movement its pretty easy to work out what sub-set someone is coming from and you can make a cohesive argument for and against.

The sheer broadness of the term feminism means that it essentially means nothing unless you pin down the specifics.

For example in a 1st or 2nd wave (or pre1970's/80's) context in western europe or the present day in other parts of the world, I could legitimately call myself a feminist because I believe in absolute equality between genders in terms of the law and franchise, the equality opportunity in terms of education and employment, and freedom from judgmentq for confirming to traditional gender roles.

At the same time I could be considered as an "anti-feminist" in that I don't believe that many of the issues raised by current Western feminism are coming from a desire to increase equality or protection of rights instead many of them seem to be about self-interest while ignoring issues that would be of greater importance to a true gender equality movement.

Very well put. I don't a quick read of the wiki page on feminism and one of the sections that caught my eye was the sections on transgender. It seems that a lot of.the militant feminist movements are very intolerant towards transgender folk. An interesting dynamic I never considered.

Pawwed Rig · 04-10-2014 03:07PM

Many who identify as Feminists indeed believe in equality and think feminism equals equality. They are unfortunately represented by the nuttier elements through the media and politics (Ivana Bacik and Una Mullally being good examples in Ireland) who push themselves forward as feminists but are effectively female supremacists who see all men as the root of all evil. People, such as they, actively seek inequality by advocating different treatments based on gender under the banner of feminism.
I would also add that gender studies courses in colleges push a solely feminist agenda dressing up what should be an analysis of each genders position pros and cons into a study on women alone. It is via these kind of courses that a 'groupthink' develops and spews many with disfunctional theories, which would be abhorrent to most right thinking people, into society further contaminating the feminist gene pool. People like those, who I discuss above imho, make feminism a dirty word and something I refuse to identify with whilst being a staunch defender of equality in all guises.

hatrickpatrick · 04-10-2014 03:28PM

I find the opposite, I hesitate to disassociate myself from feminism lest I be labelled anti-equality.

"Feminism" now stands for more than just equal rights, it also has a very nasty PC streak which seeks to impose restrictions on content and speech across the board (banning lads mags, banning page 3, trying to get "offensive" songs banned, pressuring companies to remove products which are "offensive" etc) - nothing whatsoever to do with equality and IMO a good enough reason to oppose the "feminist" label.

Czarcasm · 04-10-2014 03:58PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I find the opposite, I hesitate to disassociate myself from feminism lest I be labelled anti-equality.

"Feminism" now stands for more than just equal rights, it also has a very nasty PC streak which seeks to impose restrictions on content and speech across the board (banning lads mags, banning page 3, trying to get "offensive" songs banned, pressuring companies to remove products which are "offensive" etc) - nothing whatsoever to do with equality and IMO a good enough reason to oppose the "feminist" label.

I don't think most people would label you anti-equality Patrick for wanting to dissociate yourself from what again most people would see as advocating censorship rather than gender equality.

That's what I meant earlier about all these 'isms' having lost all their meaning really, because there's no cohesion any more, and anyone can advocate for what they like and call themselves feminist. I mean, just in the example above -

There are women that love glamour modelling and have made good careers for themselves from it, and then there are women that would want to take those choices away from women. Both advocates can call themselves feminists!

It's all very confusing to me personally as I think feminism is about advocating for support for women and women's freedom to choose their own path in life and offer them opportunities to reach those goals, but more and more it seems to have become - if you're not with us, you're against us, and so we end up with a situation like Patrick above, who identifies as feminist, because he's too afraid to say he doesn't support some women who have some funky ideas he doesn't agree with, and then you have the likes of a guy who self identifies as feminist because he advocates for an end to the practice of male circumcision, and I'm just left feeling a bit....

"Huh??"

Adamantium · 04-10-2014 04:00PM

Why is it called feminism of it's about equality?

I also have to laugh at the #HeforShe tagline, what happened to being a strong independent woman who needs no man? Logic fails me, or her in this case. Time for women to start looking inward and take responsibility.

Frankly if you typed what she said into a text to speech program, the content of what she spoke isn't anything different from what has already been said in a 1000 different lifetimes, it's the accent that people fawned over.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o0euhM6bjg

RDM_83 again · 04-10-2014 04:16PM

smurgen wrote: »

Very well put. I don't a quick read of the wiki page on feminism and one of the sections that caught my eye was the sections on transgender. It seems that a lot of.the militant feminist movements are very intolerant towards transgender folk. An interesting dynamic I never considered.

I don't know I certainly wouldn't lump the majority of feminists with the lunatic fringe of actual misandrists (many of whom might actually simply be misanthropes anyway), I might disagree with some of the methods and goals of modern mainstream feminism however you can't compare them to the rad-fem fringe.
However its up to the more mainstream feminism to disassociate themselves and say "these people do not speak for me", something thats remarkably absent compared to how other groups that have a similar extremist fringe consistently do RE: Northern Irish Nationalists or moderate Left wing political movements.

Minera wrote: »

What do board.ie members think of this would you hesitate to say that you are for or against feminism or would you hesitate in giving your opinion others for fear of being ridiculed?

IMO you have to be extremely careful how phrase any criticism of feminism because its ridiculously easy to cause unintentional offense or come across as "having a chip in your shoulder", both of which will be used to invalidate any of your points.

On a converse note I presume since this site is about 70% male userbase (i think), feminism particularly in its current mode with its emphasis on calling men to action to 'reforming' male attitudes/behavior and its tendency to portray men as a monolithic group, its never going to be particularly well received by this audience and suffer from a kneejerk reaction (which I know I have occasionally been guilty off myself).

RayM · 04-10-2014 04:27PM

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

They are unfortunately represented by the nuttier elements through the media and politics (Ivana Bacik and Una Mullally being good examples in Ireland) who push themselves forward as feminists but are effectively female supremacists who see all men as the root of all evil. People, such as they, actively seek inequality by advocating different treatments based on gender under the banner of feminism.

I'm not that familiar with Una Mullally's opinions (I generally find her writing a bit annoying, whatever the topic), but I've never seen anything to suggest that Ivana Bacik is a 'female supremacist'. It actually sounds like a really ludicrous thing to say.

Pawwed Rig · 04-10-2014 04:35PM

RayM wrote: »

I'm not that familiar with Una Mullally's opinions (I generally find her writing a bit annoying, whatever the topic), but I've never seen anything to suggest that Ivana Bacik is a 'female supremacist'. It actually sounds like a really ludicrous thing to say.

Mullally thinks all men are to blame for rape
Bacik wants custodial sentences for women to be removed. Men can still goto jail though.

Mariasofia · 04-10-2014 04:37PM

get_me_beer wrote: »

career victims of the evil " patriarchy "

feminism is poison

Lol...... a username like get_me_beer is only asking for trouble in a feminism thread..... :-D

Minera · 04-10-2014 04:44PM

lazybones32 wrote: »

It is nothing to do whatsoever with equality but certain women want to enjoy the perceived benefits they think are the exclusive domain of men, without accepting the responsibility that comes with them.

I think a lot of the first-world women who subscribe to feminism do so because of their own insecurities and not because they are discriminated against in health, education, employment etc., because there are plenty of Public Bodies/Institutions willing to fight your corner if you do suffer discrimination in these areas.

I ask you OP, if you are a feminist and what discrimination you have personally experienced on account of your gender?

Yes I am a feminist, but not for the reasons you have outlined. I am a feminist because I want to change the views and attitudes of both men and women towards typical gender stereotyping. I wont discuss discrimination I have experienced as I don't want the thread to dissolve into this is what was done to me by the opposite sex

P. Breathnach · 04-10-2014 04:50PM

Feminism is not a doctrine: it is a movement driven by a sentiment. So of course it can include people with whose views one disagrees as well as people with whom one agrees.

It is wrong to pick on particular feminists or on particlar things said or done in the name of feminism and use them to denigrate feminism generally. That's akin to condemning all Muslims because of the acts of fundamentalist extremists, or all supporters of a football team because of a hooligan element among them.

I am a (male) feminist. I ackowledge that there are some extremists in the movement, and some nutters. But they are a small minority, and unrepresentative of the great majority.

And as for opposing feminism because it's called feminism and not something else: words fail you.

Minera · 04-10-2014 04:53PM

get_me_beer wrote: »

germaine greer was asked to participate in an anti FGM campaign a few years ago , she refused stating " it might stigmatise islam "

And I think this is what needs to change just as much as sexism!

crockholm · 04-10-2014 04:53PM

There is a feminist political party in Sweden called feminist initiative-they got 3.1% of the vote in last months general elections,thankfully the threshold to form part of the govt. is 4% so all the loony parties don't get a say in running the country. Unsurprisingly the party leader is a hard left/commie who is also a tax evader/cheat and one of the co founders(since gone off on her own "queer feminism"tangent) Believes that "Women who have sex with men are traitors to their gender".

If the prospect of them getting to Power doesn't curdle the spunk inside of you,what would?

GarIT · 04-10-2014 04:57PM

P. Breathnach wrote: »

And as for opposing feminism because it's called feminism and not something else: words fail you.

Why is it ok to call an equality movement a name that at least makes it appear to be focused on one gender when you can get fired for calling a colleague a policeman even if it's a male?

Minera · 04-10-2014 04:58PM

get_me_beer wrote: »

" gender stereotyping " is a made up contrived idealogical term

women and men are different and its one of the things which makes life wonderful , the thought of blurring the lines between the genders is a horrifc one to many people , those parents who raise their kids as neither a boy or a girl are engaging in child abuse

Why?

RayM · 04-10-2014 05:00PM

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Mullally thinks all men are to blame for rape
Bacik wants custodial sentences for women to be removed. Men can still goto jail though.

She doesn't think all men are to blame for rape... but the way she writes makes it very easy for people who believe that feminism = 'hatred of men' to wilfully misinterpret her views.

Apart from an article from six years ago - when she agreed with the findings of a report suggesting non-custodial sentences for women convicted of less serious crimes, as opposed to just building more women's prisons - I can't find anything to suggest that Ivana Bacik wants custodial sentences for women to be removed. Her views on penal reform are generally worth reading.

dr.bollocko · 04-10-2014 05:00PM

Feminism is always going to be a dirty word on an Internet discussion board populated by majority young males. it's depressing but there it is. There are places, even on boards, where wagons aren't circled every time the topic comes up. Not here. But places.

Is feminism a dirty word?

Comments