Ukraine: As it happens.

gandalf · 22-09-2014 08:11AM

Egginacup wrote: »

mmmcake, this conflict was engineered and effected by the west. That's no secret. The ouster of the previous Kiev government was orchestrated by Washington. Again, no secret. The problem is, at least to most of the people on this forum who quack like ducks, that Putin has outmaneuvred Washington and NATO at every turn and that irritates the sh!t out of them.

Again I will ask the question please provide CREDIBLE proof.

You will hear gibberish about how Putin is a dictator who crushes press freedom, attacks his neighbours, persecutes homosexuals, etc. But you will not hear that these outrages are conducted by Israel, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, the US and many other regimes.

So basically what you are saying is Putin should be allowed get away with it because you reckon the other countries have been. That's a very playground orientated thought process you have.

You will read hubris, hypocrisy and contradictory lies on this thread, the like of which would make Goebbels blush.

Just thought I'd warn you.

POT KETTLE BLACK!

Egginacup · 22-09-2014 08:56AM

gandalf wrote: »

Again I will ask the question please provide CREDIBLE proof.

So basically what you are saying is Putin should be allowed get away with it because you reckon the other countries have been. That's a very playground orientated thought process you have.

POT KETTLE BLACK!

No I'm not saying that. You're the one putting words in people's mouths. First off let's address the press freedom and "persecution" of homosexuals issue, shall we? Either talk about it or don't bring it up again.

Are you saying that military action should be taken against Russia because of press censorship and/or treatment of homosexuals? Because if not then these topics should not be brought up in the context of the situation in Ukraine. They are irrelevant and are just bandied about by people on here who can't elaborate a cogent discussion as to why Putin should be sanctioned so they bring up a bunch of deflectionary crap to skew the debate.
Homosexuality has been decriminalised in Russia since the early 90's ....earlier than the US. And if you are going to express outrage at gay rights issues in Russia then you should actually concentrate on people being jailed or put to death for being gay in places like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain and multitudinous African states. Either get your priorities right or don't bring the issue up again.

The very same goes for press freedom. The US preaches about freedom of speech and lectures others yet people in the US who have exercised their right to free speech and free assembly to petition their government to seek redress for grievance have had their careers or lives wrecked or their heads bashed in. People like Phil Donohue, Dan Rather, Valerie Plame, Bradley Manning, any Occupy protester. So please don't bring up Putin's so-called iron fist as a bone of contention regarding Ukraine either.

gandalf · 22-09-2014 09:00AM

So no CREDIBLE PROOF then Egg, another clumsy sidestep as expected.

Egginacup · 22-09-2014 09:09AM

gandalf wrote: »

So no CREDIBLE PROOF then Egg, another clumsy sidestep as expected.

No not another clumsy sidestep. You shabbily qualify your demand for proof with "CREDIBLE" proof. No matter what proof you are given you will dismiss it as NON-credible. I provided proof in the past to your side-kick, Gatling. He refused to read it. In fact I can still see him with his fingers in his ears shouting "LaLaLaLa, I can't hear you!"

Egginacup · 22-09-2014 09:27AM

gandalf wrote: »

So no CREDIBLE PROOF then Egg, another clumsy sidestep as expected.

You could of course do some research of your own. Former CIA officer, Ray McGovern would know a lot more about how Washington orchestrated the coup than anyone else. Maybe you out to listen to him. Here's an article that will point you in the right direction. While you're at it, source all the quotes and dig up a little bit about the people mentioned. You'll quickly find that Victoria Nuland ("Fcuk the EU") is married to Robert Kagan, one of the psychopaths who along with Perle, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld and Cheney brought us the Iraq War.

http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/22758-meet-the-americans-who-put-together-the-coup-in-kiev

The people who know what's going on here have put in the time and effort to research it. It's only fair that you do the same rather than taking the short path of bite-sized propaganda snippets and then tabling a discussion.

gandalf · 22-09-2014 09:28AM

All bluster and no substance Egg.

gandalf · 22-09-2014 09:42AM

Egginacup wrote: »

You could of course do some research of your own. Former CIA officer, Ray McGovern would know a lot more about how Washington orchestrated the coup than anyone else. Maybe you out to listen to him. Here's an article that will point you in the right direction. While you're at it, source all the quotes and dig up a little bit about the people mentioned. You'll quickly find that Victoria Nuland ("Fcuk the EU") is married to Robert Kagan, one of the psychopaths who along with Perle, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld and Cheney brought us the Iraq War.

http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/22758-meet-the-americans-who-put-together-the-coup-in-kiev

The people who know what's going on here have put in the time and effort to research it. It's only fair that you do the same rather than taking the short path of bite-sized propaganda snippets and then tabling a discussion.

One link Egg that's it, oh dear you really should try harder. Also on boards.ie if you make a claim as a fact then the other participants in the debate have every right for YOU to back up those claims. Simply stating we have to search for them ourselves isn't good enough.

Now I suggest you get posting and when I have time I will look through them.

If you don't then I will continue to call you up on them at every opportunity.

Gatling · 22-09-2014 10:36AM

Did I read and see correct on the news over the weekend large protest in Russia demanding troops be withdrawn from Ukraine and Ukraine be left to decide its future .
Russian citizens demanding troops be withdrawn from there sovereign neighbors

Peist2007 · 22-09-2014 01:19PM

Gatling wrote: »

Did I read and see correct on the news over the weekend large protest in Russia demanding troops be withdrawn from Ukraine and Ukraine be left to decide its future .
Russian citizens demanding troops be withdrawn from there sovereign neighbors

I'm sure you did. If you realised that the news are painting a picture according to an agenda you could have saved yourself aout 1000 posts in this thread. Think of all the love you could have made in that time.

gandalf · 22-09-2014 01:20PM

What I find really interesting is the willingness that some have with the more "tinfoil hat" explanations of the events in the Ukraine.

From my perspective I find some of the theories being put forward as obviously outlandish and in some cases pure fantasy, but when you look at the history of conspiracy theories in the region you can understand why some especially those from the region hold more sway by them than others who haven't been exposed in this way would.

Conspiracy theories in Ukraine draw on inherited Soviet political culture and political technology imported from Russia where such ideas had gained ascendancy under President Vladimir Putin. Eastern Ukrainian and Russian elites believed that the US was behind the 2000 Serbian Bulldozer, 2003 Georgian Rose and 2004 Orange democratic revolutions.

The Kuchmagate crisis, impending succession crisis, 2004 presidential elections and Orange Revolution all of which took up most of Leonid Kuchma’s second term in office were the first significant domestic threats to Ukraine’s new, post-communist ruling elites and in response Ukraine's elites revived Soviet style theories of conspiracies and ideological tirades against the US and Ukrainian nationalism. Opposition candidate Viktor Yushchenko became the focal point against which the conspiracies and tirades were launched because his support base lay in ‘nationalist’ Western Ukraine and he has a Ukrainian-American spouse. The revival of Soviet style conspiracy theories has become important since Viktor Yanukovyc’s election as Ukrainian president in 2010 because this political culture permeates his administration, government and Party of Regions determining their worldview and influencing their domestic and foreign policies

http://www.taraskuzio.net/Comparative%20Politics_files/SovietCulture_Conspiracy_Yanukovych.pdf

Of course, by no means are conspiracy theories unique to Russia. As some scholars note, the U.S. could be called an "empire of conspiracy" due to the long-lasting tradition and an overwhelming corpus of conspiracy theories. Conspiracy theories, however, have been largely excluded from mainstream political discourse in the U.S., in part because of backlash to the outrageous anti-communist witch hunts of former U.S. Senator Joseph McCarthy.

Unfortunately, conspiracy theories are still a part of Russia's political discourse. The idea of "subversive agents' supported by the West was crucial for smearing dissident voices within the Soviet Union, while the conspiratorial perception of the U.S. was a central tenet of state ideology.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/russia-runs-on-conspiracy/507384.html

Gatling · 22-09-2014 01:40PM

Why do I get the feeling I'm not too popular amongst communist tin foil brigades

Egginacup · 22-09-2014 02:12PM

gandalf wrote: »

One link Egg that's it, oh dear you really should try harder. Also on boards.ie if you make a claim as a fact then the other participants in the debate have every right for YOU to back up those claims. Simply stating we have to search for them ourselves isn't good enough.

Now I suggest you get posting and when I have time I will look through them.

If you don't then I will continue to call you up on them at every opportunity.

What do you mean "One link"? How many do you want? 2? 3? 40?
What number of links do you suddenly change your mind from "dismiss" to "consider"?

Why don't you follow the link, read it and then follow further links contained therein?

sportloto86 · 22-09-2014 02:23PM

Gatling wrote: »

Why do I get the feeling I'm not too popular amongst communist tin foil brigades

Dear to correct. You are not popular amongst grown-up people who use their brains and logic and don't like bullies.

Egginacup · 22-09-2014 02:27PM

gandalf wrote: »

What I find really interesting is the willingness that some have with the more "tinfoil hat" explanations of the events in the Ukraine.

From my perspective I find some of the theories being put forward as obviously outlandish and in some cases pure fantasy, but when you look at the history of conspiracy theories in the region you can understand why some especially those from the region hold more sway by them than others who haven't been exposed in this way would.

http://www.taraskuzio.net/Comparative%20Politics_files/SovietCulture_Conspiracy_Yanukovych.pdf

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/russia-runs-on-conspiracy/507384.html

What we have on your part is a crashed plane whose fuselage shows signs of entry and exit hole damage. We have politicians saying they have proof that the Russians and/or Novorussian separatists were categorically responsible but they will not provide this proof. We have confiscated air traffic control comms by Kiev security forces and we have suppressed satellite, radar and comms data on the part of those who are making the accusations.

And this is good enough for you. Like I said before you'd make a lousy detective/investigator.
You can scream "CT" at anyone who has a problem with the above cloak and dagger motif all you want but it doesn't strengthen your position one iota. It doesn't convince anyone. All you are trying to do is ridicule people into not asking valid questions because you don't want to consider alternatives.

We also have a Western orchestrated coup. This is no secret but you don't want (or have the stomach) to believe it so again you go down the CT route and facts be damned.

Gatling · 22-09-2014 02:28PM

sportloto86 wrote: »

Dear to correct. You are not popular amongst grown-up people who use their brains and logic and don't like bullies.

I'm a bully seriously

Like really

Seriously

gandalf · 22-09-2014 02:38PM

Egginacup wrote: »

What do you mean "One link"? How many do you want? 2? 3? 40?
What number of links do you suddenly change your mind from "dismiss" to "consider"?

Why don't you follow the link, read it and then follow further links contained therein?

What number of links, well based on your history of providing actual proof on this thread probably none given the suspect sources of the information but I am willing to be swayed if you can actually post the information.

Yes one link for all your convictions is pathetic unless of course you have been programmed to accept what you are saying is the norm?

gandalf · 22-09-2014 02:51PM

Egginacup wrote: »

What we have on your part is a crashed plane whose fuselage shows signs of entry and exit hole damage. We have politicians saying they have proof that the Russians and/or Novorussian separatists were categorically responsible but they will not provide this proof. We have confiscated air traffic control comms by Kiev security forces and we have suppressed satellite, radar and comms data on the part of those who are making the accusations.

From my perspective and the perspective of a lot of others there is enough proof to show that Pro-Russian rebels were responsible for taking down MH17.

There is enough proof to show that Russia has gotten directly involved in an attack on a neighbouring sovereign state?

And this is good enough for you. Like I said before you'd make a lousy detective/investigator.

Well based on your ability to turn fantasy into reality I will take that as a compliment

You can scream "CT" at anyone who has a problem with the above cloak and dagger motif all you want but it doesn't strengthen your position one iota. It doesn't convince anyone. All you are trying to do is ridicule people into not asking valid questions because you don't want to consider alternatives.

I have no problem with people asking valid questions at all. What I do have a problem with is someone like you presenting something as a fact and then having no ability or intention in backing up those statements, typically deflecting the request for clarity in a totally unrelated direction. Now that I do have a problem with.

We also have a Western orchestrated coup. This is no secret but you don't want (or have the stomach) to believe it so again you go down the CT route and facts be damned.

What coup again you scream it but you don't prove it. Just because you want to emulate George Bush and keep spouting a lie with the faint hope that people will believe it is the truth doesn't mean it's going to happen. Post the proof of a coup.

As you can see from one of the links I posted about this is a common political tool in Russia and her satellites. Something happens you don't like it's Western Interference or a coup. Now are you capable of backing up what you are saying or not?

Peist2007 · 22-09-2014 02:52PM

Gatling wrote: »

Why do I get the feeling I'm not too popular amongst communist tin foil brigades

You're referring to people with a different opinion as "communist tin foil brigades". I think that's why you arent liked. I also think calling people the above shows you are an extremely narrow minded person. Further, you and your ilk are the bedrock on which the bullsh1t of the future will be spouted. They depend on unquestioning "Sure, i read it on BBC so it's true" types like yourself. You have chosen to insult those who merely ask to see evidence and then twist the debate to demand evidence yourself, when it was your side of the argument making all of the claims/accusations in the first place. In short, you are a stain and it is sad to see you operating so smugly. But it is true that ignorance is bliss

Peist2007 · 22-09-2014 03:01PM

gandalf wrote: »

I have no problem with people asking valid questions at all. What I do have a problem with is someone like you presenting something as a fact and then having no ability or intention in backing up those statements, typically deflecting the request for clarity in a totally unrelated direction. Now that I do have a problem with.

Rubbish. You shout conspiracy theory at anyone that doesnt agree with your opinion. In a situation where no one is being given any facts you are here every day spouting. I would love to have as little to do as you.

Peist2007 · 22-09-2014 03:36PM

comongethappy wrote: »

I don't understand?
Ukraine is in a state of war with part of its sovereign territory annexed by a stronger neighbour.

This is a fact.
One can support this or be against it.
Simple as that.

Yet here you are.

I think the above post describes what i have been getting at.

Egginacup · 22-09-2014 04:01PM

gandalf wrote: »

From my perspective and the perspective of a lot of others there is enough proof to show that Pro-Russian rebels were responsible for taking down MH17.

What proof? There is no proof. None. All you have is speculation. You don't have a shred of proof.

Please show this "proof" that shows that pro-Russian rebels were responsible for taking down MH17.

Your "proofs" are as flimsy, if not downright pathetic as those "proofs" that god exists, e.g. "if God didn't exist, nothing would exist. But many things exist, therefore God exists. QED." There's loads of crap like that.

Your take on the proof that pro-Russian rebels were responsible is akin to this rubbish. You state "pro-Russian rebels have previously shot down Ukrainian aircraft, ergo they are responsible."

When shown how staggeringly flawed your logic is you don't examine it and see it's flaw. Instead you demand an alternative so that you can scoff at an alternative and bring the debate back to your flawed, and ultimately worthless "proof".

BoJack Horseman · 22-09-2014 04:27PM

Peist2007 wrote: »

I think the above post describes what i have been getting at.

I read your post & I can't see what your getting at?

You described the conflict as being without facts.
That isn't the case.
The facts are plenty.
They just arent comfortable for Putin's fanclub here.

Elmer Blooker · 22-09-2014 05:08PM

gandalf wrote: »

What number of links, well based on your history of providing actual proof on this thread probably none given the suspect sources of the information but I am willing to be swayed if you can actually post the information.

Yes one link for all your convictions is pathetic unless of course you have been programmed to accept what you are saying is the norm?

You quoted The Moscow Times earlier today so you obviously consider it to be a reliable and informative source. You should find this an interesting read.
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/after-kiev-coup-the-west-will-focus-on-moscow/496915.html

In our reality, Ukraine has no sovereign authority because the U.S. effectively appointed the country's senior officials behind the scenes. Why else did the little-known Oleksandr Turchynov become acting president, while Vitaly Klitschko, who had actively pursued that post but was disliked by Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland, was sidelined? And on what grounds did Arseny Yatsenyuk, who was not popular among Ukrainians but was Nuland's clear favorite, become prime minister?

Peist2007 · 22-09-2014 05:19PM

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

I read your post & I can't see what your getting at?

You described the conflict as being without facts.
That isn't the case.
The facts are plenty.
They just arent comfortable for Putin's fanclub here.

I really couldnt be arsed going through the same crap with a new username. They always seem to crop up and start asking the same questions. Read back and you might appreciate the flaws of taking one warring side's version of events over another. Ps this applies to every single conflict the world over. Just one side seem to be getting better at hiding in plain sight. Practice makes perfect i guess

Ps i see you in politics forum talking about Russia taking over a smaller neighbour. Were you in a coma in February? Or do you think the Ukrainian coup had nothing to do with Russia's actions?

Gatling · 22-09-2014 05:30PM

Peist2007 wrote: »

You're referring to people with a different opinion as "communist tin foil brigades". I think that's why you arent liked. I also think calling people the above shows you are an extremely narrow minded person. Further, you and your ilk are the bedrock on which the bullsh1t of the future will be spouted. They depend on unquestioning "Sure, i read it on BBC so it's true" types like yourself. You have chosen to insult those who merely ask to see evidence and then twist the debate to demand evidence yourself, when it was your side of the argument making all of the claims/accusations in the first place. In short, you are a stain and it is sad to see you operating so smugly. But it is true that ignorance is bliss

So basically your only here to attack me because you and others posters are so paranoid about a cia conspiracy .
and everyone else who posts anything but Soviet propaganda are ignorant .

There is pig ignorance alright

BoJack Horseman · 22-09-2014 06:07PM

Peist2007 wrote: »

I really couldnt be arsed going through the same crap

You said we have no facts pertaining to the conflict.
I say there are plenty of facts.
Your welcome to argue that fantastical point if you can bring yourself to it.

you might appreciate the flaws of taking one warring side's version of events over another.

There is 1 country invading another.
In such things, personally I tend to side with the invaded country, the one being attacked..... Sticking up for the underdog.
You are welcome (as you do) to support the invader.

Ps i see you in politics forum talking about Russia taking over a smaller neighbour. Were you in a coma in February? Or do you think the Ukrainian coup had nothing to do with Russia's actions?

Again, one country has invaded another & annexed its territory.
That's the ball-game right there, there is zero ambiguity.

I encourage you to show us why you support the Kremlin in these actions.
(Unless throwing mud at others who don't support the Kremlin is the sum total of your wit).

Count Dooku · 22-09-2014 07:25PM

gandalf wrote: »

From my perspective and the perspective of a lot of others there is enough proof to show that Pro-Russian rebels were responsible for taking down MH17.

Holes from shrapnel on winglet clearly shows that plane been hit from back and only Ukrainians could do that. Everything else was pure propaganda and hysteria

sheesh · 22-09-2014 07:28PM

Count Dooku wrote: »

Holes from shrapnel on winglet clearly shows that plane been hit from back and only Ukrainians could do that. Everything else was pure propaganda and hysteria

what if the missle exploded from the back?

sheesh · 22-09-2014 07:48PM

Egginacup wrote: »

mmmcake, this conflict was engineered and effected by the west. That's no secret. The ouster of the previous Kiev government was orchestrated by Washington. Again, no secret. The problem is, at least to most of the people on this forum who quack like ducks, that Putin has outmaneuvred Washington and NATO at every turn and that irritates the sh!t out of them.

you are talking like everyone on the thread that you are disagreeing with are really pro USA which they are not. You say Putin has outmaneuvered the the US but he is the one that is spending millions supporting the separatists. The ruble is tanking and the sanctions still stand. I assume that he is offsetting the cost of the war against the expense of building a new black sea port. only time will tell. If it was orchestrated by Washington they have done it very cheaply and the have also got the EU on side which is a win.

Egginacup wrote: »

You will hear gibberish about how Putin is a dictator who crushes press freedom, attacks his neighbours, persecutes homosexuals, etc. But you will not hear that these outrages are conducted by Israel, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, the US and many other regimes.

Lets see political opponents imprisioned. high profile journalist that are critical of Putin turn up dead, he does persecutes homosexuals (he has passed laws on this) and alot of the media is state controlled.

people on this forum give out about this when the us do it too and Israel too.

Egginacup wrote: »

You will read hubris, hypocrisy and contradictory lies on this thread, the like of which would make Goebbels blush.

Just thought I'd warn you.

Yes you will, egginacup is responsible fo most of this though and nobody listens to what he says. He brings up things like the cuban missle crisis claims we supported the invasion of iraq. and basically tries to avoid explaining how someone who lives out side russia could possibly be pro russian in this conflict.

Elmer Blooker · 22-09-2014 08:06PM

sheesh wrote: »

you are talking like everyone on the thread that you are disagreeing with are really pro USA which they are not. You say Putin has outmaneuvered the the US but he is the one that is spending millions supporting the separatists. The ruble is tanking and the sanctions still stand. I assume that he is offsetting the cost of the war against the expense of building a new black sea port. only time will tell. If it was orchestrated by Washington they have done it very cheaply and the have also got the EU on side which is a win.

Lets see political opponents imprisioned. high profile journalist that are critical of Putin turn up dead, he does persecutes homosexuals (he has passed laws on this) and alot of the media is state controlled.

people on this forum give out about this when the us do it too and Israel too.

Yes you will, egginacup is responsible fo most of this though and nobody listens to what he says. He brings up things like the cuban missle crisis claims we supported the invasion of iraq. and basically tries to avoid explaining how someone who lives out side russia could possibly be pro russian in this conflict.

I would agree with what egginacup says - not all us are narrow minded xenophobes who would believe in anything they're told to believe in.
Interesting that you should mention Washington doing things on the cheap - just shows how naive you are! Still, it's good to have a Democrat in the White House - better health care and education for the poor and disadvantaged, isn't that right?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2765493/Projected-US-nuclear-weapons-spending-hits-1-TRILLION-jus

Ukraine: As it happens.

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