Scottish Independence discussion area

stevedublin · 09-09-2014 01:57PM

kingchess wrote: »

it seems that Cameron,Miliband and Clegg are to make an emergency visit to Scotland tomorrow to show how united they all are and to rally the NO vote,.

They should be telling the Scots to vote Yes if they want a No vote.

Donkey Oaty · 09-09-2014 02:07PM

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

No one's going into coalition with UKIP.

No, but that was the craftiness of it - he just wanted to raise the mere theoretical possibility of Nigel Farage having a say in the future of a non-independent Scotland.

Similar subtle tactics on the No side - take a look at the picture that the Telegraph is using in this non-story about Queen Elizabeth:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11083874/Alex-Salmond-implies-Queen-backs-Scottish-independence.html

Fratton Fred · 09-09-2014 02:33PM

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

No, but that was the craftiness of it - he just wanted to raise the mere theoretical possibility of Nigel Farage having a say in the future of a non-independent Scotland.

Similar subtle tactics on the No side - take a look at the picture that the Telegraph is using in this non-story about Queen Elizabeth:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11083874/Alex-Salmond-implies-Queen-backs-Scottish-independence.html

What's crafty about a picture of Liz and Al?

Peppa Pig · 09-09-2014 02:34PM

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

No, but that was the craftiness of it - he just wanted to raise the mere theoretical possibility of Nigel Farage having a say in the future of a non-independent Scotland.

Similar subtle tactics on the No side - take a look at the picture that the Telegraph is using in this non-story about Queen Elizabeth:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11083874/Alex-Salmond-implies-Queen-backs-Scottish-independence.html

That's nothing. the good old Daily Mail is predicting armageddon, possibly.
Daily Mail

Donkey Oaty · 09-09-2014 02:38PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

What's crafty about a picture of Liz and Al?

They could have used a nice one where she isn't grimacing at him.

Assuming one exists.

Antar Bolaeisk · 09-09-2014 02:43PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

A United Ireland? How is that any different to a union?

How would the people of east Belfast have their interests better served by a Dublin parliament?

Surely if you support Scottish independence, then you should support independence for northern Ireland?

Besides, there's always the question of whether or not we'd want them back!

Donkey Oaty · 09-09-2014 02:54PM

Peppa Pig wrote: »

That's nothing. the good old Daily Mail is predicting armageddon, possibly.
Daily Mail

More scaremongering from the DM. Keep on printing this rubbish and us YES voters will be celebrating even earlier next Friday. Trust me, we'll win this in a canter, an absolute canter !

Interestingly, that is the "worst rated" comment on the DM story.

Nodin · 09-09-2014 03:00PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Not huffing, just laughing at the size of the chip on your shoulder.

You will never understand what it is to be British, because you are too narrow minded and obsessed with your own little world

You see being British as being an imperialist when in reality it is the opposite, it is a catch all name for people who live in a hugely multicultural state.

You can be British and English, Welsh or Scottish. I was watching cricket last week with British Indians. British because they were born in Britain and support the Scottish or English football teams, but Indian by heritage and therefore supporters of the Indian cricket team.

It's too much for you to understand, your world view was created listening to one hundred year old rebel songs and politics and you seem to have problem digesting the fact that not everything that happens in the world revolves around Ireland and it's struggle for freedom .

....dear me, somebody is a bit bitter.

Fratton Fred · 09-09-2014 03:01PM

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

They could have used a nice one where she isn't grimacing at him.

Assuming one exists.

I think that's her standard look. At her age her face doesn't move an awful lot!

Dyr · 09-09-2014 03:29PM

Nodin wrote: »

....dear me, somebody is a bit bitter.

You wouldnt understand bitter lad, with your fancy stouts and ales

Fratton Fred · 09-09-2014 04:23PM

Nodin wrote: »

....dear me, somebody is a bit bitter.

Hi Nodin.

Muahahaha · 09-09-2014 05:10PM

jank wrote: »

Just dismantling his point. Republicanism = good, monarchy = bad is something that most Irish people grow out of when they reach puberty and look at the world with knowing.

I don't think I'll ever grow out of the idea that all a nations citizens should be treated equally rather than the inequality that is inherent in monarchies. You try to accuse others of being immature by reducing it to a simple dichotomy of good & bad when it is far more complex than that.

But one thing I would ask you to answer, a thought experiment if you will. Lets assume we were on the first day after a revolution in which feudalism was overthrown and society was deciding what method of governance to follow. Do you think they would choose a democratic republic where all citizens are held as equal or would they choose a democratic monarchy where all citizens are equal, except for some who are more equal than others ? Which option do you think society would choose, given that they know nothing about either system having never yet experienced it.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

How many times does this need pointing out?

Scotland is not voting to remove the monarchy.

You can point it out all you like till you're blue in the face but the fact of the matter is that for some Scots they are voting out the Queen. Referendums are funny like that and people will attach all sorts of issues to the question. iirc we were told to vote Yes to Lisbon, 'Yes for Jobs', where was the jobs and what the bloody hell had Lisbon to do with some abstract notion of 'Jobs' ? During the Lisbon 1 campaign one group convinced a lot of people that a Yes vote would mean the introduction of abortion on demand and some people went and voted No on that basis. Again people were convinced to vote a certain way in a referendum as an answer to a question that wasnt even being asked.

So when you say Scotland isnt voting to remove the monarchy that is indeed correct. But what is also correct is that some Scottish people are going to vote Yes because to them doing so gives the Royal Family the biggest kick in the nads they've ever got. THat's the reality of some voters intentions and it is very much a part of the dynamic in this referendum.

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

Headline on the live updates from The Telegraph:

A bit out of context, to be fair - the report is actually this:

So he hasn't actually compared Alex Salmond to Hitler.

Yet.

Well given the Tory rag the Spectator has compared Alex Salmond to Robert Mugabe a Hitler reference wouldnt be all that out of place at this stage.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/01/how-is-alex-salmond-like-robert-mugabe/

Fratton Fred · 09-09-2014 05:28PM

Muahahaha wrote: »

I don't think I'll ever grow out of the idea that all a nations citizens should be treated equally rather than the inequality that is inherent in monarchies. You try to accuse others of being immature by reducing it to a simple dichotomy of good & bad when it is far more complex than that.

But one thing I would ask you to answer, a thought experiment if you will. Lets assume we were on the first day after a revolution in which feudalism was overthrown and society was deciding what method of governance to follow. Do you think they would choose a democratic republic where all citizens are held as equal or would they choose a democratic monarchy where all citizens are equal, except for some who are more equal than others ? Which option do you think society would choose, given that they know nothing about either system having never yet experienced it.

You can point it out all you like till you're blue in the face but the fact of the matter is that for some Scots they are voting out the Queen. Referendums are funny like that and people will attach all sorts of issues to the question. iirc we were told to vote Yes to Lisbon, 'Yes for Jobs', where was the jobs and what the bloody hell had Lisbon to do with some abstract notion of 'Jobs' ? During the Lisbon 1 campaign one group convinced a lot of people that a Yes vote would mean the introduction of abortion on demand and some people went and voted No on that basis. Again people were convinced to vote a certain way in a referendum as an answer to a question that wasnt even being asked.

So when you say Scotland isnt voting to remove the monarchy that is indeed correct. But what is also correct is that some Scottish people are going to vote Yes because to them doing so gives the Royal Family the biggest kick in the nads they've ever got. THat's the reality of some voters intentions and it is very much a part of the dynamic in this]

that's just your own interpretation, the monarchy has never been in question with this.

I agree with your first point, but we aren't starting some year one type regime. In the UK, the monarchy works fine, they do their job well and don't rock the boat too much. Most people's view in the UK would be more why change for the sake of it, rather than actively wanting to keep a monarchy.

Parliament has the real power and control and a quick look at the MPs shows that any one can get there if they want and there are no restrictions on who can become prime minister. Why go to all the hassle and expense of electing a ceremonial president, when a ceremonial monarchy does the same job.

Hagar7 · 09-09-2014 05:48PM

As much as I'd love no monarchy in Scotland,Lizzy will be with us for the forseable future.

Dozen Wicked Words · 09-09-2014 06:03PM

What ever way the vote goes now, the SNP will be happy. Independence obviously their preference but devo max is what they get now even if they "lose". That's what they wanted on the ballot in the first place, and secretly I'd guess was as good as they thought they could get. Definitely win win.

sabat · 09-09-2014 06:04PM

Hagar7 wrote: »

As much as I'd love no monarchy in Scotland,Lizzy will be with us for the forseable future.

Yes, but could you see a monarchy headed by Charles Windsor surviving a referendum on its future in Scotland in say 10 or 15 years time?

A Dub in Glasgo · 09-09-2014 06:05PM

It is not really devo max, it is a half baked solution dreamed up by Labour

Dozen Wicked Words · 09-09-2014 06:18PM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

It is not really devo max, it is a half baked solution dreamed up by Labour

Ah, what are the differences between the two then?

Donkey Oaty · 09-09-2014 06:20PM

Muahahaha wrote: »

Well given the Tory rag the Spectator has compared Alex Salmond to Robert Mugabe a Hitler reference wouldnt be all that out of place at this stage.

In fact, he has already been compared to Hitler by two Labour MPs, and he has also been compared to Slobodan Milosevic, King Jong-Il, Genghis Khan, Nero, Stalin and Nicolae Ceausescu.

Perceptive blog post about it here.

Donkey Oaty · 09-09-2014 06:31PM

And he has also been compared to Beyoncé by SNP deputy leader Nicola Sturgeon.

EunanMac · 09-09-2014 06:32PM

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

In fact, he has already been compared to Hitler by two Labour MPs, and he has also been compared to Slobodan Milosevic, King Jong-Il, Genghis Khan, Nero, Stalin and Nicolae Ceausescu.

Perceptive blog post about it here.

Dictator bingo ! - I love it, shows you are desperate and bereft of arguments the no side are when they are resorting to such ad hominems

Dozen Wicked Words · 09-09-2014 06:37PM

EunanMac wrote: »

Dictator bingo ! - I love it, shows you are desperate and bereft of arguments the no side are when they are resorting to such ad hominems

The article is over 2 years old, think it shows their bitterness at losing control in Scotland rather than desperation in this current debate (though they probably are)

I am pie · 09-09-2014 06:37PM

Has anyone on the No side ever stopped to wonder why so many Scots want out of the Union? Not sure they'd be sending up a few old etonians and making misty eyed references to cricket and the marvellous cultural melting pot the collapse of an empire left them with?

Nice to know that if Scotland left monarchy and the Union behind that multi culturalism would be done and dusted? Precisely what difference does the Queen and a London parliament make there? Scots will suddenly become xenophobic without the benefit of an empire that most of it's former constituents fought for freedom from? Not sure that really holds much water does it...

A Dub in Glasgo · 09-09-2014 06:40PM

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

Ah, what are the differences between the two then?

This talks about Devo Max as

'Devo-max is simply the maximum form of devolution short of
independence. What does this mean exactly, well, it goes something like
this: ‘the Scottish Parliament and Government would take on more responsibility for domestic matters and for raising, collecting and
administering all (or the vast majority of) revenues in Scotland and the
vast bulk of public spending. The UK Government and institutions would
continue to have responsibility for matters such as macroeconomic policy
and defence, but the Scottish Parliament and Government would have a
greater range of measures available to them to support sustainable
economic growth’'

The powers Brown outlined in his publically funded referendum broadcast last night is taken from Labour's proposals from March this year which falls well short of the above and is the weakest proposal of the 3 Unionist parties

http://www.scottishlabour.org.uk/campaigns/entry/devolution-commission

A Dub in Glasgo · 09-09-2014 06:41PM

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

And he has also been compared to Beyoncé by SNP deputy leader Nicola Sturgeon.

He has a great twitter account here

Fratton Fred · 09-09-2014 06:46PM

I am pie wrote: »

Has anyone on the No side ever stopped to wonder why so many Scots want out of the Union? Not sure they'd be sending up a few old etonians and making misty eyed references to cricket and the marvellous cultural melting pot the collapse of an empire left them with?

Nice to know that if Scotland left monarchy and the Union behind that multi culturalism would be done and dusted? Precisely what difference does the Queen and a London parliament make there? Scots will suddenly become xenophobic without the benefit of an empire that most of it's former constituents fought for freedom from? Not sure that really holds much water does it...

The original question is valid and one that the no side need to address.

The rest of your post just shows your own ignorance.

I am pie · 09-09-2014 06:49PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The original question is valid and one that the no side need to address.

The rest of your post just shows your own ignorance.

I am not ignorant enough to make assumptions about people on the internet, nor make blythe remarks about questions I can't answer after waffling on about the glories of the empire and making comically twee spurious, connections between multi culturalism and god knows what.

If my post is your interpretation of ignorance, ignorant I will remain and happily so.

twinytwo · 09-09-2014 06:51PM

have not read through the thread so apologies if this has been mentioned before...

There are serious issues for scotland if they achieve independence.

For example:

I would assume that they would have to reapply to join the EU which WILL be vetoed by Spain.

They will have to start a currency from scatch.. england wont let them use the pound, they cant use the euro.

As they are not part of the eu the free travel, i assume dosent apply.. (unless they let it) which would be bad for businesses.