Scottish Independence discussion area

anishboi

Can't seem to find a good discussion thread anywhere, so as time is getting closer, I'll get the ball rolling here.

What are your views for/against Scottish independence?

If you don't have a view, do you think it'll happen?

Personally, I think Alex Salmond seems to be turning heads at an extremely fast rate, but I'm neutral on the matter.

Lapin

Sammond choosing St George's Day to make his first pro independence speech on English soil was harmlessly cheeky !

Personaly I think the Scots would be mad to break up the Union.

The UK as a united entity is a much stronger than a splinered cluster of 4 seperate nations.

Scottish independence will also have a detrimental impact on the Labour Party's representation at Westminster, resulting in the Conservitaves and Lib Dems gaining a greater balance of power there.

Not good for democracy.

I don't think it will happen anyway.

turnikett1

voila

I am 100% for Scottish independence... Shame it probably won't happen though.

Red Nissan

I asked my wife, "be independent from England?" she asked, "yes." "Ah yes, they should, they always were anyway!"

wretcheddomain

Lapin wrote: »

Scottish independence will also have a detrimental impact on the Labour Party's representation at Westminster, resulting in the Conservitaves and Lib Dems gaining a greater balance of power there.

Only once in Labour history did they require Scottish seats to gain power at parliament; what you've said is a commonly propagated myth that needs to be tackled.

anishboi

I don't think people can say "it definitely won't happen" anymore, this time last year maybe yes you could but the yes campaign has gained so much ground since then....

All it really needs is one more persuasive Salmond speech to bring the polls to 50/50

Titzon Toast

I race online with a load of Scottish lads every night. According to them, it really is 50/50 as to whether they'll split or not.
I know that's not really an accurate measurement of how things are gonna pan out, but I found it interesting that they're not all just gonna jump ship for the sake of it.
It's gonna be interesting to watch that's for sure.

Lapin

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Only once in Labour history did they require Scottish seats to gain power at parliament; what you've said is a commonly propagated myth that needs to be tackled.

If the Scottish got independence tomorrow, 41 Labour MPs would transfer north of the border from Westminster with twelve from the government parties going to Edinburgh.

Thats a serious difference, especially when the greater number is from the opposition benches.

My name is URL

The way people just assume that there's no chance of it happening is mad. It'd be hilarious if those who didn't want independence became utterly complacent in expecting their side to win, and just didn't bother voting on the day.

Spring Onion

anishboi wrote: »

I don't think people can say "it definitely won't happen" anymore, this time last year maybe yes you could but the yes campaign has gained so much ground since then....

All it really needs is one more persuasive Salmond speech to bring the polls to 50/50

I think it has gained ground in the same way that fool Sean Gallagher did well in the presidential polls. When push came to shove, people opted for who they could trust. I think the Scottish result will be 60/40 No.

darkpagandeath

What's the EU said on their end I assume If they vote for independence they will not be automatically invited to the EU and many many targets and such like will be needed to be met if joining is even an option. Same with the currency has it not already been said the pound is not an option. Wont the EU be making it really difficult to join as they Don’t want EU countries splitting up.

Paramite Pie

I think it will be a close call, but I do think Scotland will remain in the Union.

I do think Scotland will choose Independence someday and I do think Scotland could be economically viable. But there's too much doubt in the current economy and most people will vote safe.:)

darkpagandeath wrote: »

What's the EU said on their end I assume If they vote for independence they will not be automatically invited to the EU and many many targets and such like will be needed to be met if joining is even an option. Same with the currency has it not already been said the pound is not an option. Wont the EU be making it really difficult to join as they Don’t want EU countries splitting up.

When Ireland achieved Independence, we had arrangements made to use the British pound for an interim period until a new currency was established. Scotland could certainly make arrangements, but Westminster won't consider it until the vote is actually passed. Any doubt is a yes vote for the Union.

The Ultimate Warrior

The Ultimate Warrior wrote: »

Is it not the case that Scottish WOMEN were found to be overwhelmingly in favour of a NO to independence.

Is it not the case; warriors that in the meantime Scottish MEN leant toward a YES -

IS IT NOT THE CASE that British media reports on the gender diifference clearly dictating the poll focused on Scottish MEN suffering from BRAVEHEART SYNDROME -- whilst nothing was suggested of a more commonplace PRINCESS SYNDROME that will dictate the outcome.

I'd have more luck translating Rab C Nesbitt than any of the above

darkpagandeath

Paramite Pie wrote: »

I think it will be a close call, but I do think Scotland will remain in the Union.

I do think Scotland will choose Independence someday and I do think Scotland could be economically viable. But there's too much doubt in the current economy and most people will vote safe.:)



When Ireland achieved Independence, we had arrangements made to use the British pound for an interim period until a new currency was established.

Yes I understand that but they are not just leaving the Uk they will be leaving the EU as well wont they. And as I said the pound has been taken off the table has it not. Due to not being able to set the interest rates and so on ?

Courtesy Flush

The Scots dont have the balls to leave the UK
They will sing songs about freedom and independence but they wont vote for it

Iwasfrozen

Paramite Pie wrote: »

I think it will be a close call, but I do think Scotland will remain in the Union.

No, Barroso shot this one down. Scotland would have to totally reapply from scratch.

Red Nissan

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

I'd have more luck translating Rab C Nesbitt than any of the above

Ach yes are proply a sasnak, away wi ye.

kingchess

I think the yes vote is gaining a lot of ground,the pro union crowd can only promise more of the same, and a lot of scots are left leaning and hate the tories, the uk goverement has said that they can not continue to use the pound if they leave(currency union) but the snp says all this can be settled after independence.

kingchess

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No, Barroso shot this one down. Scotland would have to totally reapply from scratch.

and I think that barroso was proved wrong after that statement,anyway,if scotland has to apply from scratch where will the poor spanish fleet get their fish from? I doubt that Europe would kick them out as it would be against the ethos of the european union -hell they even want the Ukraine-

SEPT 23 1989

Not really independence now is it?

Iwasfrozen

kingchess wrote: »

and I think that barroso was proved wrong after that statement,anyway,if scotland has to apply from scratch where will the poor spanish fleet get their fish from? I doubt that Europe would kick them out as it would be against the ethos of the european union -hell they even want the Ukraine-

When was he proven wrong? Barroso is the man in charge of ensuring the correct adherence to EU treaties. If he was wrong on this issue it would seriously undermine his position and question his capability to stay on in that role.

I don't think he was though, I was watching italk on euronews lately and the question was brought up to one of the vice presidents of the EU parliment and he confirmed what Barroso said.

Here's the link:
http://www.euronews.com/2012/11/28/obsession-with-austerity-is-dangerous-eu-vice-president/

preston johnny

If the Scots want to guarantee a victory in the referendum. they should let the English vote

awec

I still don't understand what the SNP mean by independence.

It seems every time I hear it on the news I'm hearing Salmond or some other SNP politician arguing about some perk / benefit of being in the UK that Scotland should keep even after independence.

It's like the want out, but want to keep one foot in. Or something.

Gott

After I moved to Scotland I was pleasantly surprised to see that Irish people get a vote.

I've tried to keep an open mind but I keep coming back to Yes. The Tory government has presided over an explosion of poverty, opening of food banks, and a widening wealth gap and are doing nothing to tackle it. Scots have always been far more socially minded than their southern neighbours (historically Labour have been very strong, and the SNP espouses similar principles to old Labour) and I think the opportunity to have a government that leans that way appeals to them.

I have tried to give Better Together the benefit of the doubt but they are clueless how to sell the union positively. As the three main parties are involved they all have differing views on how the union should be run and haven't offered any unified vision for a post indyref still-in-the-union Scotland. This has resulted in their policies being, at best, vague. Two of my close friends are unionists and when quizzed on "why are we Better Together?" their responses have boiled down to "Because we ARE Better Together!" without saying why.

Yes canvassers on the other hand tend to be quite persuasive (the idea that the Yes front is anti-English is ludicrous though as with all things some lunatics exist) and can give calm, rational explanations of why Scotland will be a stronger separate nation. Alex Salmond is also very charismatic and is playing shrewd tactics (reaching out to women voters - less likely to vote Yes - by promoting women into his cabinet, for example), something that will enhance its chances.

The whole thing about the EU - Barroso is trying to appease the Spanish who are sh1tting themselves that Catalonia will follow Scotland's example and leave; quite a few EU theorists and legal experts have come out and said things to the effect that Scotland would have an expedited rejoining process, if forced out at all before the 2016 independence day. Scots are currently EU citizens and to strip them of that right would cause a lot of legal heartache for the EU.

The Bank of England - which is meant to be independent from the British government - have quietly mentioned that a deal could be done for a currency union. This caused serious embarrassment for the Tories who a few weeks previous had screeched about how Scotland wouldn't keep the pound.

Iwasfrozen

awec wrote: »

I still don't understand what the SNP mean by independence.

It seems every time I hear it on the news I'm hearing Salmond or some other SNP politician arguing about some perk / benefit of being in the UK that Scotland should keep even after independence.

It's like the want out, but want to keep one foot in. Or something.

It's a tactic. SNP know there are key issues affecting their campaign so if they can say we will keep these benefits post independence it helps them sell the idea to the public.

Like any other election once the vote is made the promises are worthless anyway.

darkpagandeath

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

When was he proven wrong? Barroso is the man in charge of ensuring the correct adherence to EU treaties. If he was wrong on this issue it would seriously undermine his position and question his capability to stay on in that role.

I don't think he was though, I was watching italk on euronews lately and the question was brought up to one of the vice presidents of the EU parliment and he confirmed what Barroso said.

Here's the link:
http://www.euronews.com/2012/11/28/obsession-with-austerity-is-dangerous-eu-vice-president/

Miguel Angel Martinez: “Yes, anyway, the answer is quite simple and that is to say, if a new state appears on the European stage – a new state that is not a member, by definition, since it has split automatically it becomes a third country. Therefore, membership or not would, in my opinion be judged in the same way that we judge accession of any other candidate countries. You know that I am responsible for candidate countries, a country which may be called Scotland or Catalonia would have to go through the same process that currently Turkey and other countries have to go through.”

seems as we have said they will defiantly have to reapply

The whole thing about the EU - Barroso is trying to appease the Spanish who are sh1tting themselves that Catalonia will follow Scotland's example and leave; quite a few EU theorists and legal experts have come out and said things to the effect that Scotland would have an expedited rejoining process, if forced out at all before the 2016 independence day. Scots are currently EU citizens and to strip them of that right would cause a lot of legal heartache for the EU.

How so they will have left the EU they will no longer be a part of an EU country, No way to sugar coat that one. They will be an independent nation.

Gott

preston johnny wrote: »

If the Scots want to guarantee a victory in the referendum. they should let the English vote

The English in Scotland indicate a large preference for staying in the Union. The more pertinent question is can they be arsed turning out to vote in September.

The Diabolical Monocle

Och thas ne gonney happen


It'll be a 'no'.

But the number will be scary enough to gain them some respect/act as a warning not to take the piss.

kingchess

barrose and his claim was ridiculed by an european court judge amongst others,and people reckoned he was playing to his own domestic audience.if he is right or wrong I do not know but I think that scotland will stay inside the EU but re-write a few treaties,beats throwning them out and re-writing every treaty.funny if they stay in and the rest of the uk votes to leave the EU??

bnt

I think it's all about the economics: no amount of nationalism, or lofty ideals, will keep the wolf from the door if the numbers don't add up.

In particular, I think Scotland really does need its own currency, independent of the Euro or Sterling. The Eurozone experiment has demonstrated that it's a bad idea to have a currency union without a fiscal union (policies for tax, spending etc.) . The Governor of the Bank of England, got this point right in the speech he gave back in January.

Iwasfrozen

kingchess wrote: »

barrose and his claim was ridiculed by an european court judge amongst others,and people reckoned he was playing to his own domestic audience.if he is right or wrong I do not know but I think that scotland will stay inside the EU but re-write a few treaties,beats throwning them out and re-writing every treaty.funny if they stay in and the rest of the uk votes to leave the EU??

It's not just Barroso I've linked you to an interview given by one of the vice presidents of the EU parliament.

What European court judge ridiculed his claim? Who are the others, do you have any links?

It would not be necessary to re-write anything, the moment Scotland leaves the UK it creates a new country called Scotland. That country is not a member of the EU and would have to re-apply.

awec

Gott wrote: »

The Bank of England - which is meant to be independent from the British government - have quietly mentioned that a deal could be done for a currency union. This caused serious embarrassment for the Tories who a few weeks previous had screeched about how Scotland wouldn't keep the pound.

The Bank of England said Scotland would have to cede some national sovereignty for a currency deal to work.

That seems totally counter intuitive to the idea of independence. :pac:

Just one of those things I don't get. The SNP want independence, but not on currency. Or maybe partly on currency, they haven't really specified from what I can see.

Son Of A Vidic

If the Scots reject independence, then let me never hear them sing Flower of Scotland again.

Gott

awec wrote: »

The Bank of England said Scotland would have to cede some national sovereignty for a currency deal to work.

That seems totally counter intuitive to the idea of independence. :pac:

Just one of those things I don't get. The SNP want independence, but not on currency. Or maybe partly on currency, they haven't really specified from what I can see.

Just as we did when we joined the euro, I agree. However at present what the Yes side are angling for is similar to the old Dominion status in the British empire, plus external relations powers.

Some have accused Yes Scotland of wanting to have their independence cake and eat it while retaining the pound and the Queen, but then that leaves aside the fact that they're planning to establish a Scottish Defence Force and remove the Trident missiles (which, all told, contribute 15,000 jobs directly and indirectly, so that's a big one), this would be a tremendous break from the UK.

kingchess

SORRY cant find the links,but what would the EU do if scotland did not reapply-the spanish fleet would have no access to scottish waters for one,the EU needs scotland and their oil in the EU ,and they can not legally remove EU citizenship from them ,and barose and others are politicians saying one thing with their eyes on their own future in their home countries,

Iwasfrozen

kingchess wrote: »

SORRY cant find the links,but what would the EU do if scotland did not reapply-the spanish fleet would have no access to scottish waters for one,the EU needs scotland and their oil in the EU ,and they can not legally remove EU citizenship from them ,and barose and others are politicians saying one thing with their eyes on their own future in their home countries,

There's no such thing as an EU citizenship, it was one of the sticking points of the Nice treaty. There are only member countries, when Scotland breaks away from the UK it will legally be creating a new country named Scotland. This country has to re-apply for membership if they want it.

I've said this before Barosso is the man in charge of ensuring the correct application of EU treaty law. If he was wrong on this issue it would undermine his capability to stay in his position. Besides the man is Portugese, not Spanish.

As for fishing and oil, there is no reason agreements couldn't be made with Scotland being outside the EU, Norway and Switzerland both trade with the EU.

SEPT 23 1989

kingchess wrote: »

SORRY cant find the links,but what would the EU do if scotland did not reapply-the spanish fleet would have no access to scottish waters for one,the EU needs scotland and their oil in the EU ,and they can not legally remove EU citizenship from them ,and barose and others are politicians saying one thing with their eyes on their own future in their home countries,

wave after wave of heavy bombing runs

Iwasfrozen

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

wave after wave of heavy bombing runs

Burn that oil out of the sea.

Gott

kingchess wrote: »

SORRY cant find the links,but what would the EU do if scotland did not reapply-the spanish fleet would have no access to scottish waters for one,the EU needs scotland and their oil in the EU ,and they can not legally remove EU citizenship from them ,and barose and others are politicians saying one thing with their eyes on their own future in their home countries,

Giant slant drills to steal the oil from under Scotland's noses.

Didn't realise Barroso was Portuguese, there's my ignorance of the EU showing.

discus

Living in semi rural scotland here at the minute. The NO voters seem to be keeping their heads down at the minute, while the YES voters are all over social and local media. People here seem to be very irrationally emotive about it. Most people point to thr tories and Cameron as the reason to split. They don't realise that the financial nexus that is london city is what gives the currency (and the union) the power and status in international relations.

I expect they WILL get independance, and when the trident missiles, royal navy bases, royal marine bases, british army bases and shio building industries move down south, the scottish will realise where they now lie in the scheme of things. A population with growing public health problems, a huge social welfare bill and a currency that will either be stillborn or suffer hugely for the next few years.

They may even learn Irelands lesson, that the same people will still lead them.... someone has to collect the taxes and meet budget constraints. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss!

kingchess

sorry-found one, link but do not know how to link it.you can google scottish independence-barroso,its an article in the scotsman newspaper ,I broke my leg a month ago and had too much free time on the internet,got interested in scottish independence vote and read a lot of threads about it, started off thinking the scots would be mad to leave the UK but now-if I was a scotsman I would be leaning towards a yes for independence

Gott

discus wrote: »

Living in semi rural scotland here at the minute. The NO voters seem to be keeping their heads down at the minute, while the YES voters are all over social and local media. People here seem to be very irrationally emotive about it. Most people point to thr tories and Cameron as the reason to split. They don't realise that the financial nexus that is london city is what gives the currency (and the union) the power and status in international relations.

I expect they WILL get independance, and when the trident missiles, royal navy bases, royal marine bases, british army bases and shio building industries move down south, the scottish will realise where they now lie in the scheme of things. A population with growing public health problems, a huge social welfare bill and a currency that will either be stillborn or suffer hugely for the next few years.

They may even learn Irelands lesson, that the same people will still lead them.... someone has to collect the taxes and meet budget constraints. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss!

The most honest no voter I've met said "yes, we are unashamedly sponging off London, and I'm voting no because I want to continue basking in its reflected glory."

Better question perhaps is not should Scotland be independent, but should London decide to go it alone as Europe's Singapore?

Under glorious President for Life Boris Johnson, of course.

Red Nissan

discus wrote: »

Living in semi rural scotland here at the minute. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss!

It's romantic though to be independent, the Romans were seemingly fearful of Scotland and almost every military conflict has had a massive Scottish influence, and my wife is a McCoy of clan of the same name.

But if I had my Irish Independence over again, and if it wasn't a forced armed conflict, I'd vote to stay in the union.

Scotland is very well positioned to go it alone, some of us in Cork have already declared independence you know.

razorblunt

Word on the ground here, it's a no.
Interested to see STV tv listings for the night before the big day.

anishboi

It's funny the way that Salmond wants to become independent, yet keep the pound, trade and even the queen.

Even he might subconsciously still feel british?

When he mentioned that about keeping the queen, I was wondering what the whole point in independence was. I thought the reason he wanted to split was because he wanted Scotland to become a republic?

SEPT 23 1989

anishboi wrote: »

It's funny the way that Salmond wants to become independent, yet keep the pound, trade and even the queen.

Even he might subconsciously still feel british?

When he mentioned that about keeping the queen, I was wondering what the whole point in independence was. I thought the reason he wanted to split was because he wanted Scotland to become a republic?

its a half arsed independence

kingchess

she is also queen of scotland I think,and they are voting to break the union only of great britain

anishboi

The main dilemma is the whole EU thing. They won't necessarily be allowed to stay in the EU. The people at Brussels will surely take into account the knock on effect that would have...

Catalonia in Spain and Flanders in Belgium will come knocking, plus the huge queue of countries in Eastern Europe waiting to get in...

Before you know it EU27 becomes EU50.

Red Nissan

Gott wrote: »

Under glorious President for Life Boris Johnson, of course.

I say, he'd make a go of it for sure, MY impression of him is favourable.

Red Nissan

anishboi wrote: »

The people at Brussels will surely take into account the knock on effect that would have...

The whole UK is only partly EU anyway, Scotland has a key defense strategy situation, it'd get absorbed into the EU and NATO quicker than you can say "I object!"

Fratton Fred

kingchess wrote: »

she is also queen of scotland I think,and they are voting to break the union only of great britain

A Scottish king inherited the English crown a century before the two parliaments became joined.