Scottish Independence discussion area

Happyman42 · 09-09-2014 10:56AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Something you will never understand or appreciate.

Barely There wrote: »

When you've managed to figure out why the question concerns you so much, you'll be a good way down the path to becoming am more enlightened member of the planet's population.

You guys aren't huffing already are yis? A bit defeatist with 10 days to go.

Hoop66 · 09-09-2014 10:56AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Funny you should mention the English campaigning for a yes vote. My Scottish friend who lives in Dublin argues that the best reason to vote no, is because the English want the Scots to vote yes!

Really? None of my English friends want a yes vote. Probably because it'll likely lead to more Tory government of England.

If I lived in England I'd want a no vote. If I was in Scotland I'd be seriously divided - on the one hand it would be great to have a modern, functioning, participatory democracy, but on the other hand it's likely the same old cunts will get power.

A Dub in Glasgo · 09-09-2014 10:57AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Which, of course, they would not be.

So your real question should be why do different countries have different voting eligibility criteria?

If/when Scotland becomes independent, will all these non Scots who are voting in the referendum be eligable to vote?

I do not know, that is for the constitution to sort out

Saadyst · 09-09-2014 11:00AM

The smallness and pettiness of this referendum is astounding, considering the scale of the question. It's being run almost as a regular election. I wonder if there would be any chance of it succeeding if Labour were in power. It's what scares me as a Scot - is this a protest vote and is it just short term thinking.

I know it's what Salmond is using to get the votes secured. I see that almost as a betrayal to the country - focusing on the small points rather than the grander question.

Hoop66 · 09-09-2014 11:01AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

If/when Scotland becomes independent, will all these non Scots who are voting in the referendum be eligable to vote?

I don't see why not. I, a British citizen, am eligible to vote in elections here in Ireland. So presuming they meet the residence criteria, why shouldn't they?

Fratton Fred · 09-09-2014 11:04AM

Happyman42 wrote: »

You guys aren't huffing already are yis? A bit defeatist with 10 days to go.

Not huffing, just laughing at the size of the chip on your shoulder.

You will never understand what it is to be British, because you are too narrow minded and obsessed with your own little world

You see being British as being an imperialist when in reality it is the opposite, it is a catch all name for people who live in a hugely multicultural state.

You can be British and English, Welsh or Scottish. I was watching cricket last week with British Indians. British because they were born in Britain and support the Scottish or English football teams, but Indian by heritage and therefore supporters of the Indian cricket team.

It's too much for you to understand, your world view was created listening to one hundred year old rebel songs and politics and you seem to have problem digesting the fact that not everything that happens in the world revolves around Ireland and it's struggle for freedom .

Fratton Fred · 09-09-2014 11:06AM

Hoop66 wrote: »

I don't see why not. I, a British citizen, am eligible to vote in elections here in Ireland. So presuming they meet the residence criteria, why shouldn't they?

You aren't in presidential elections or referendums.

Donkey Oaty · 09-09-2014 11:06AM

Headline on the live updates from The Telegraph:

David Cameron invokes the defeat of Hilter in bid to get Business leaders to campaign for a 'no' vote

A bit out of context, to be fair - the report is actually this:

Sky News reports that the Prime Minister told a drinks reception of 200 of Britain’s most influential business leaders that the United Kingdom had fought and won the Second World War together and it must remain undivided.

So he hasn't actually compared Alex Salmond to Hitler.

Yet.

A Dub in Glasgo · 09-09-2014 11:06AM

Saadyst wrote: »

The smallness and pettiness of this referendum is astounding, considering the scale of the question. It's being run almost as a regular election. I wonder if there would be any chance of it succeeding if Labour were in power. It's what scares me as a Scot - is this a protest vote and is it just short term thinking.

I know it's what Salmond is using to get the votes secured. I see that almost as a betrayal to the country - focusing on the small points rather than the grander question.

Can't be as the people in Scotland have been told relentlessly, 'it is forreeevveerr'

It is about structural change about how the people of Scotland are Governed and do they have the responsibility and accountibility to make decisions (with the cost that goes with it)

This is not voting for the SNP or Labour, in fact I see the SNP fracturing should independence happen.

kingchess · 09-09-2014 11:06AM

jank wrote: »

China is a republic (and North Korea), yet its political system is more akin to feudalism than anything else. Sweden and the Netherlands are constitutional monarchies. Which country do you think gives the individual more power and say in the political process.

they may call themselves a Republic but they are not,in a Republic the people are sovereign-all power comes from the people,and in a Parliamentary Democracy such as the UK the Parliament is Sovereign and can pass any law, which can not be challenged in court.the difference is more to do with legal terms than anything else and do not really make much difference to the average joe soap.

Michael D Not Higgins · 09-09-2014 11:08AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So will they all become Scottish citizens? What about the 800,000 thousand Scots living elsewhere in the UK? Will they automatically get a Scottish passport?

I'm assuming it will work like NI in that they will get a choice of continuing with a British passport or opt for a Scottish passport. For those born after independence, I'm sure the usual passport criteria will apply.

Happyman42 · 09-09-2014 11:14AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Not huffing, just laughing at the size of the chip on your shoulder.

You will never understand what it is to be British, because you are too narrow minded and obsessed with your own little world

You see being British as being an imperialist when in reality it is the opposite, it is a catch all name for people who live in a hugely multicultural state.

You can be British and English, Welsh or Scottish. I was watching cricket last week with British Indians. British because they were born in Britain and support the Scottish or English football teams, but Indian by heritage and therefore supporters of the Indian cricket team.

It's too much for you to understand, your world view was created listening to one hundred year old rebel songs and politics and you seem to have problem digesting the fact that not everything that happens in the world revolves around Ireland and it's struggle for freedom .

Ah Fred, I thought you had more in the arsenal than that pettyiness ^

I think everybody in the debate has an understanding of 'Britihness' it is just that more and more people are seeing that it is more important to part of the construct that is a 'nation', than a construct that is an uneven 'Union'.

In an Ireland context, republicans have been saying that our future is better in a united nation, for a long time. Republicans understand fully what it is to be British, the good and the bad.

Skylinehead · 09-09-2014 11:17AM

LordSutch wrote: »

Defence = No British Army, No RAF, No Royal Navy . . . .

Hardly a major issue, it's not like the Russians are on the doorstep waiting to invade the second they say Yes.

Fratton Fred · 09-09-2014 11:21AM

Hoop66 wrote: »

Really? None of my English friends want a yes vote. Probably because it'll likely lead to more Tory government of England.

If I lived in England I'd want a no vote. If I was in Scotland I'd be seriously divided - on the one hand it would be great to have a modern, functioning, participatory democracy, but on the other hand it's likely the same old cunts will get power.

I have been getting mixed responses to be honest, ranging from we are better together, please vote no, to lets rebuild Hadrian's wall.

kingchess · 09-09-2014 11:23AM

what ever way you cut it,it seems a large minority-maybe a majority-of scots do not want to be British, ,that is democracy for you.

Fratton Fred · 09-09-2014 11:23AM

Skylinehead wrote: »

Hardly a major issue, it's not like the Russians are on the doorstep waiting to invade the second they say Yes.

That's not why Salmond is planning on a £2.5bn defence budget, it's because there are thousands of Scots in the UK armed forces who are basically saying don't make me choose between my uniform and my country.

Fratton Fred · 09-09-2014 11:27AM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Ah Fred, I thought you had more in the arsenal than that pettyiness ^

I think everybody in the debate has an understanding of 'Britihness' it is just that more and more people are seeing that it is more important to part of the construct that is a 'nation', than a construct that is an uneven 'Union'.

In an Ireland context, republicans have been saying that our future is better in a united nation, for a long time. Republicans understand fully what it is to be British, the good and the bad.

A United Ireland? How is that any different to a union?

How would the people of east Belfast have their interests better served by a Dublin parliament?

Surely if you support Scottish independence, then you should support independence for northern Ireland?

Fratton Fred · 09-09-2014 11:28AM

kingchess wrote: »

what ever way you cut it,it seems a large minority-maybe a majority-of scots do not want to be British, ,that is democracy for you.

Not Scots, the people of Scotland. Not all Scots are being asked.

EunanMac · 09-09-2014 11:35AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Surely if you support Scottish independence, then you should support independence for northern Ireland?

I would indeed, I certainly would not want that British made cesspit draining Ireland's resources.

Happyman42 · 09-09-2014 11:36AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

A United Ireland? How is that any different to a union?

How would the people of east Belfast have their interests better served by a Dublin parliament?

Surely if you support Scottish independence, then you should support independence for northern Ireland?

Who is looking for an independent N.I.?

Your assumption that a 'Dublin' parliament would automatically act against the interests of the people of East Belfast is revealing though. Just because the United Kingdom of GB and NI behaved in that way(worked against some of it's people) doesn't mean that a Dublin parliament made up of elected representatives would.

Fratton Fred · 09-09-2014 11:45AM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Who is looking for an independent N.I.?

Your assumption that a 'Dublin' parliament would automatically act against the interests of the people of East Belfast is revealing though. Just because the United Kingdom of GB and NI behaved in that way(worked against some of it's people) doesn't mean that a Dublin parliament made up of elected representatives would.

Yeah, ok, whatever.

Please don't derail this thread any further.

Happyman42 · 09-09-2014 11:48AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Yeah, ok, whatever.

Please don't derail this thread any further.

Stop asking derailing questions then.

Dyr · 09-09-2014 11:48AM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Who is looking for an independent N.I.?

Your assumption that a 'Dublin' parliament would automatically act against the interests of the people of East Belfast is revealing though. Just because the United Kingdom of GB and NI behaved in that way(worked against some of it's people) doesn't mean that a Dublin parliament made up of elected representatives would.

If you think about it norn irish tds would have far more pull in a 32 county dail than they can in Westminster. Of course the Brits made such a basket case of the place that the upkeep on her would be mental

Madam · 09-09-2014 11:55AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Not Scots, the people of Scotland. Not all Scots are being asked.

The people of Scotland are the only ones with a vested interest in where they live. Why should someone who doesn't live here have a vote - I don't have a vote in Ireland even though I'm Irish, why? because I contribute nothing to that country! Besides if someone left Scotland at the age of 2 or 3 months you think they should be allowed to vote when obiviously their attachment to the country wouldn't be the same as someone who lives here.

Fratton Fred · 09-09-2014 12:26PM

Madam wrote: »

The people of Scotland are the only ones with a vested interest in where they live. Why should someone who doesn't live here have a vote - I don't have a vote in Ireland even though I'm Irish, why? because I contribute nothing to that country! Besides if someone left Scotland at the age of 2 or 3 months you think they should be allowed to vote when obiviously their attachment to the country wouldn't be the same as someone who lives here.

Generally I would agree. It isn't that black and white though.

BonnieSituation · 09-09-2014 01:14PM

The Scottish Government published a white paper detailing the institutions and processes it it intends to develop after a yes vote. Some of the stuff in here is maddening to read when there's information already out there.

http://scotreferendum.com/reports/scotlands-future-your-guide-to-an-independent-scotland/

---
In other news: this is moving too quickly for me!
http://www.krank.ie/category/opinions/end-nigh-scottish-independence-referendum/

Donkey Oaty · 09-09-2014 01:29PM

Here's a crafty question by an anonymous tweeter, reported by the BBC, re. DevoMax:

What happens if a hung parliament produces a Ukip coalition who have not signed up for more devolution?

porsche959 · 09-09-2014 01:30PM

It's actually an extremely silly question, but not suprising that it was dutifully tweeted by the BBC, which is basically an arm of the UK government.

Michael D Not Higgins · 09-09-2014 01:35PM

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

Here's a crafty question by an anonymous tweeter, reported by the BBC, re. DevoMax:

No one's going into coalition with UKIP.

kingchess · 09-09-2014 01:44PM

it seems that Cameron,Miliband and Clegg are to make an emergency visit to Scotland tomorrow to show how united they all are and to rally the NO vote,.that might work-three English Toffs telling the Scots we love you guys ,please do not go(.I would love to hear the conversation in the back of the auld Rover as they leave London for the long drive north-I would say the craic would be mighty) ps-they will not travel together.

Scottish Independence discussion area

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