Old ways

FullblownRose · 08-09-2014 03:02PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

They really don't though. That's why the CE mark is important, because the bigger picture is that it cuts out the risk of shoddy workmanship done cheaply and charged for as though it were CE marked.

You'll get the same with satellite installers, PC and laptop repair services, and of course cowboy 'tradesmen' doing a few nixers off the books.

Traditional crafts workers and IT repair people are very different. If someone who knows boats, wants to buy a bespoke boat, I don't think the first thing they will ask is ''does it have a C.E mark'' . Those people would be looking for a new fibreglass boat. Reputation is a big thing among old style boat owners.

FullblownRose · 08-09-2014 03:04PM

Cruz Helpless Vineyard wrote: »

OK, so at last a hint of what you are trying to get to. And the answer is a definate no.

Er, right. I don't know why people who have no experience of something don't just say, ah, that kind of thing doesn't apply to me/my kind of profession, I'll leave it to people who do have exerience to answer that.

Tiddlypeeps · 08-09-2014 04:07PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

My point is that it's legal in most European countries. Ireland has to be the one place that doesn't trust its citizens to read the feckin' label, and therefore those who aren't either on antidepressants or silly enough to mix meds can't have it either. That's literally the definition of a nanny state.

You can literally make that argument about all prescription meds, all people have to do is read the label. If that's the definition of a nanny state then all other countries that require a prescription for any medication are nanny states.

It being legal in any other country or countries is irrelevant. St. Johns Worth has been proven to be dangerous when misused and is easily misused. Saying just read the label isn't good enough. This is a substance that is often marketed by companies that like to claim water has memory and all sorts of crazy mumbojumbo, for uncontrolled substances they are allowed to do this. Are the government supposed to just trust they they will put the correct information on the label and only lie about the stuff that doesn't matter?

If you don't want it to be treated just like most other antidepressant drugs then you will need to come up with a convincing reason to make that happen. "Other countries don't do it", isn't a very convincing reason when discussing something that has been proven to be dangerous in many circumstances.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Not the case. The IMB just arbitrarily decided that certain supplements had to much vitamin B12 and took them off the shelves. My point, once again, is that only in Ireland do these bodies say "we don't trust our citizens to make their own decisions". Citizens of most other EU countries don't face such bullsh!t hand-holding.

Do you have a specific example of something that a was outright rejected by the medicine board and a quote from them as to why? I ask for this because people like to speculate on these things, and as the idea gets passed around to a few people it eventually gets passed on as fact and I'm having a hard time figuring out how anyone could get their hands on the information to begin with. Do the medical board publish reports on products that have failed? I didn't think they do but I'm open to correction. I can't imagine the company would ever advertise it had failed themselves, that would surely be commercial suicide.

WilyCoyote · 08-09-2014 04:28PM

TheZohan wrote: »

Apparently Rolf Harris feels the same.

If FullblownRose had her way, you'd be in stocks or at least pilloried.

FullblownRose · 08-09-2014 04:57PM

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

You can literally make that argument about all prescription meds, all people have to do is read the label. If that's the definition of a nanny state then all other countries that require a prescription for any medication are nanny states.

It being legal in any other country or countries is irrelevant. St. Johns Worth has been proven to be dangerous when misused and is easily misused. Saying just read the label isn't good enough. This is a substance that is often marketed by companies that like to claim water has memory and all sorts of crazy mumbojumbo, for uncontrolled substances they are allowed to do this. Are the government supposed to just trust they they will put the correct information on the label and only lie about the stuff that doesn't matter?

If you don't want it to be treated just like most other antidepressant drugs then you will need to come up with a convincing reason to make that happen. "Other countries don't do it", isn't a very convincing reason when discussing something that has been proven to be dangerous in many circumstances.

Do you have a specific example of something that a was outright rejected by the medicine board and a quote from them as to why? I ask for this because people like to speculate on these things, and as the idea gets passed around to a few people it eventually gets passed on as fact and I'm having a hard time figuring out how anyone could get their hands on the information to begin with. Do the medical board publish reports on products that have failed? I didn't think they do but I'm open to correction. I can't imagine the company would ever advertise it had failed themselves, that would surely be commercial suicide.

Sorry..bit confused

Is it St.John's Wort that you mean when you say it's been proven dangerous etc?

eisenberg1 · 08-09-2014 05:04PM

Tail Docker wrote: »

Bob Dylan makes and sells steel gates as his hobby. Who knew?? They sell for a lot too.

And Bill Gates used to play in Dylan tribute act, as a side earner. Who would have thunk it.

WilyCoyote · 08-09-2014 05:07PM

Interesting article re St Johns Wort in Germany

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/neuroskeptic/2009/07/31/st-johns-wort-the-perfect-antidepressant-if-youre-german/#.VA3UNpRdX3I

Funkfield · 08-09-2014 05:17PM

I'm a skrimshawist by trade. This recession has bitten deep.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 08-09-2014 05:17PM

FullblownRose wrote: »

Er, right. I don't know why people who have no experience of something don't just say, ah, that kind of thing doesn't apply to me/my kind of profession, I'll leave it to people who do have exerience to answer that.

What bit did you not get? I had experience of an old trade now gone and no it did not end due to regulations but just due to progress and history.
Could you be more specific if you want something more please.

Tiddlypeeps · 08-09-2014 05:34PM

FullblownRose wrote: »

Sorry..bit confused Is it St.John's Wort that you mean when you say it's been proven dangerous etc?

Yup, I'm terrible with spelling

Posted a link on it in my previous post.

Tail Docker · 08-09-2014 06:19PM

Funkfield wrote: »

I'm a skrimshawist by trade. This recession has bitten deep.

Bit skrimpy these days?

FullblownRose · 08-09-2014 06:29PM

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

Yup, I'm terrible with spelling

Posted a link on it in my previous post.

I didn't mean to be picking on your spelling by the way..I was honestly just wondering out of interest...I'll check out the article, thanks.

FullblownRose · 08-09-2014 06:31PM

Cruz Helpless Vineyard wrote: »

What bit did you not get? I had experience of an old trade now gone and no it did not end due to regulations but just due to progress and history.
Could you be more specific if you want something more please.

I didn't specifically ask you for any information. Don't feel obliged to offer any. Nobody said trades become obsolete because of regs., I am just interested in that side of it.

FullblownRose · 08-09-2014 06:36PM

WilyCoyote wrote: »

If FullblownRose had her way, you'd be in stocks or at least pilloried.

Do you have a reason for that coment or are you just being mean for no reason? I have not said anything to sggest that I was in an way cross with that poster. I did find the reference to a sex abuser a bit crass but I was not rude to the person who mentioned it. My response to them was made light heartedly.

Either you are confused or trying to stir up bad feeling where there was none?

FullblownRose · 08-09-2014 06:42PM

Thanks to the person who provided the link, it is..interesting..but I would like something that explains when and how St. John's wort could be misused to dangerous effect..because I know of more potentially dangerous herbs that can be bought freely..in fact the plant st. john's wort comes from is a common enough shrub in Ireland...

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 08-09-2014 07:04PM

FullblownRose wrote: »

Do you have a reason for that coment or are you just being mean for no reason? I have not said anything to sggest that I was in an way cross with that poster. I did find the reference to a sex abuser a bit crass but I was not rude to the person who mentioned it. My response to them was made light heartedly.

Either you are confused or trying to stir up bad feeling where there was none?

I think it was a reference to "old ways" rather anything else, as you are the one who raised this thread on old ways. It was light hearted.

dxhound2005 · 08-09-2014 07:06PM

FullblownRose wrote: »

Thanks to the person who provided the link, it is..interesting..but I would like something that explains when and how St. John's wort could be misused to dangerous effect..because I know of more potentially dangerous herbs that can be bought freely..in fact the plant st. john's wort comes from is a common enough shrub in Ireland...

Are these other potentially dangerous herbs on sale in pharmacies? By what process do they become dangerous, overconsumption, mixture with other substances, some other way?

FullblownRose · 08-09-2014 07:07PM

Cruz Helpless Vineyard wrote: »

I think it was a reference to "old ways" rather anything else, as you are the one who raised this thread on old ways. It was light hearted.

Yeah... I didn't think much of it, whatever it meant..but someone has commented that I'd like to see the person who mentioned Rolf Harris, is stocks or at least pilloried..?

FullblownRose · 08-09-2014 07:10PM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Are these other potentially dangerous herbs on sale in pharmacies? By what process do they become dangerous, overconsumption, mixture with other substances, some other way?

I'd just advise plenty of research if you are going it alone, without professional advice, or trying to treat a condition or any ailment on your own.. but medical herbalists will be well versed in this stuff and know what is suitable, what might interact with other herbs or conventional meds that are already being used..just because something is natural does not automatically mean it's always harmless or it won't have side-effects..There is an awful lot to herbal medicine, like any form of medicine.

FullblownRose · 08-09-2014 07:12PM

Cruz Helpless Vineyard wrote: »

I think it was a reference to "old ways" rather anything else, as you are the one who raised this thread on old ways. It was light hearted.

I might be missing something, then..the only thing I know of Rolf Harris is that he has been in the news because there were allegations against him..so I replied based on that little bit of knowledge and said that there was no need to drag the thread down..I don't really see any reason for it to be brought up now?

Packrat · 08-09-2014 08:09PM

Fullblownrose, I think I understand what you're getting at:

Im 40 this year, and come from one of the last places in Ireland to get electricity or to modernise.

Growing up I remember the following activities which are all illegal or frowned upon now. Some were illegal then, but seemed victimless at the time :

Theiving from orchards, using poteen on animals, dad drinking some very rarely.

Netting the river for salmon, shooting deer, rod fishing without a licence, driving tractors from 6 years old, cars from 12.

Walking animals to fairs in the dark, sitting on a board on the lift arms of a tractor with wherls spinning two feet away either side. Children doing what many men today wouldn't in terms of hard physical work.

Illegal otter boards for fishing trout, I used to supply the whole area with these as I was a handy carpenter from 8 or 9.

Handling bulls and bullocks (from 12 I'd get in a pen or trailer with them and wrangle them into head halters)

10 in a car going out as teenagers, driver reasonably sober-ish. No tax on anything- ever.
Working for cash, drawing stamps, no permits for driving track machines, (track them along the road at night to move them) no safe pass, no trailer licence, 6 tonne on a trailer behind a jeep.

Everything is regulated, ticketted, licenced, taxed, trained, tested, guardrailed, safe and right and proper today, but I sometimes sigh for that life. However, that time is past, gone, and along with it all the bad stuff which went with it. My son or daughter being born next month will experience a very different world to the one I did, nothing wrong with that.

My upbringing was amazing, I wouldn't change it for the world, but my future children dont need to know how to make or use ciseans or otter boards.

Fr_Dougal · 08-09-2014 08:20PM

FullblownRose wrote: »

I might be missing something, then..the only thing I know of Rolf Harris is that he has been in the news because there were allegations against him..so I replied based on that little bit of knowledge and said that there was no need to drag the thread down..I don't really see any reason for it to be brought up now?

I honestly didn't think I'd have to explain that post, it's quite straight forward. What was deemed acceptable years ago or was allowed slide, might not be acceptable today and generally that's for the benefit of all society. Health and safety and laws are generally there to protect people. Is that clear?

FullblownRose · 08-09-2014 08:30PM

TheZohan wrote: »

I honestly didn't think I'd have to explain that post, it's quite straight forward. What was deemed acceptable years ago or was allowed slide, might not be acceptable today and generally that's for the benefit of all society. Health and safety and laws are generally there to protect people. Is that clear?

You made reference to a child sex abuser in order to, in your own mind, 'clearly' demonstrate why, in your opinion, regulations r.e businesses are universally for the good of all of society.

Well, you are entitled to your way of thinking.

FullblownRose · 08-09-2014 08:33PM

Packrat wrote: »

Fullblownrose, I think I understand what you're getting at:

Im 40 this year, and come from one of the last places in Ireland to get electricity or to modernise.

Growing up I remember the following activities which are all illegal or frowned upon now. Some were illegal then, but seemed victimless at the time :

Theiving from orchards, using poteen on animals, dad drinking some very rarely.

Netting the river for salmon, shooting deer, rod fishing without a licence, driving tractors from 6 years old, cars from 12.

Walking animals to fairs in the dark, sitting on a board on the lift arms of a tractor with wherls spinning two feet away either side. Children doing what many men today wouldn't in terms of hard physical work.

Illegal otter boards for fishing trout, I used to supply the whole area with these as I was a handy carpenter from 8 or 9.

Handling bulls and bullocks (from 12 I'd get in a pen or trailer with them and wrangle them into head halters)

10 in a car going out as teenagers, driver reasonably sober-ish. No tax on anything- ever.
Working for cash, drawing stamps, no permits for driving track machines, (track them along the road at night to move them) no safe pass, no trailer licence, 6 tonne on a trailer behind a jeep.

Everything is regulated, ticketted, licenced, taxed, trained, tested, guardrailed, safe and right and proper today, but I sometimes sigh for that life. However, that time is past, gone, and along with it all the bad stuff which went with it. My son or daughter being born next month will experience a very different world to the one I did, nothing wrong with that.

My upbringing was amazing, I wouldn't change it for the world, but my future children dont need to know how to make or use ciseans or otter boards.

That's pretty unusual for a fairly young person - like you say, the bad stuff is also gone with it..I think that's great. I do wonder if it has gone frm one extreme to another..

Tiddlypeeps · 08-09-2014 08:43PM

FullblownRose wrote: »

Thanks to the person who provided the link, it is..interesting..but I would like something that explains when and how St. John's wort could be misused to dangerous effect..because I know of more potentially dangerous herbs that can be bought freely..in fact the plant st. john's wort comes from is a common enough shrub in Ireland...

I think the post you read was from someone else. This is the one I posted http://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/herb-interaction/possible-interactions-with-st-johns-wort

The main concern is that if mixed with other antidepressants it can cause serious illness, even on occasion death.

FullblownRose wrote: »

I'd just advise plenty of research if you are going it alone, without professional advice, or trying to treat a condition or any ailment on your own.. but medical herbalists will be well versed in this stuff and know what is suitable, what might interact with other herbs or conventional meds that are already being used..just because something is natural does not automatically mean it's always harmless or it won't have side-effects..There is an awful lot to herbal medicine, like any form of medicine.

That's one of the main reasons it was made a controlled substance. "Herbalist"isn't a licensed profession, and what they tell you doesn't need to be factual. At least if it is administered by a doctor you can be fairly certain you will be properly informed of how to take it, what not to mix it with and any potential side effects. If a doctor fails in those things they won't be a doctor for long. A herbalist or other random alternative administer of alternative medicine faces no repercussions for misinforming people.

Fr_Dougal · 08-09-2014 08:54PM

FullblownRose wrote: »

You made reference to a child sex abuser in order to, in your own mind, 'clearly' demonstrate why, in your opinion, regulations r.e businesses are universally for the good of all of society.

Well, you are entitled to your way of thinking.

Even though you quoted my post in its entirety, you still do not seem to be able to comprehend it. I'm sorry, but that's not something I can do for you, I've made up as simple as I can.

FullblownRose · 08-09-2014 08:58PM

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

I think the post you read was from someone else. This is the one I posted http://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/herb-interaction/possible-interactions-with-st-johns-wort

The main concern is that if mixed with other antidepressants it can cause serious illness, even on occasion death.

That's one of the main reasons it was made a controlled substance. "Herbalist"isn't a licensed profession, and what they tell you doesn't need to be factual. At least if it is administered by a doctor you can be fairly certain you will be properly informed of how to take it, what not to mix it with and any potential side effects. If a doctor fails in those things they won't be a doctor for long. A herbalist or other random alternative administer of alternative medicine faces no repercussions for misinforming people.

I don't really understand the Irish system where there are 'herbalists'. In the U.K there are medical herbalists and they are highly professional and regulated.

I'm not one myself but I know that a lot of herbs can interact with conventional medicines and no reputable herbalist would advise a client to take any herbal medicine that might interact with ther current medicine, or that might disagree with the client in any way due to a health condition or some other reason. I don't understand why St.John's wort would be treated differently to other herbs that *Are* available to buy here, that anyone can buy with no professional advice and no understanding, and that anyone can experiment with, and risk serious consequences.

FullblownRose · 08-09-2014 09:00PM

TheZohan wrote: »

Even though you quoted my post in its entirety, you still do not seem to be able to comprehend it. I'm sorry, but that's not something I can do for you, I've made up as simple as I can.

Probably because it wasnt a good point.

Tiddlypeeps · 08-09-2014 09:03PM

FullblownRose wrote: »

I don't really understand the Irish system where there are 'herbalists'. In the U.K there are medical herbalists and they are highly professional and regulated.

I'm not one myself but I know that a lot of herbs can interact with conventional medicines and no reputable herbalist would advise a client to take any herbal medicine that might interact with ther current medicine, or that might disagree with the client in any way due to a health condition or some other reason. I don't understand why St.John's wort would be treated differently to other herbs that *Are* available to buy here, that anyone can buy with no professional advice and no understanding, and that anyone can experiment with, and risk serious consequences.

What else do you know of that is both dangerous and likely to be misused by the ill informed? Not saying there isn't any, I'm sure some have gone under the radar just curious what particular herbal remedies you are talking about.

If St. John's wort isn't a controlled substance in the UK then you don't need a herbalist to prescribe it, you can probably just pick up a bottle in the local Holland and Barrets.

Sh1tbag OToole · 08-09-2014 10:59PM

It seems like I always go for the hobbies that the drysh1tes in Leinster house seem to frown upon

*Cars - Government wants to put us all in driverless Google cars, limited to 25mph, with a huge insurance premium and massive motor tax
*Boating - As soon as I buy a boat, the government want to bring in mandatory insurance, certification, etc.
*Shooting - Each time some loon in the states kills a bunch of kids, it becomes an excuse to tighten up the law over here
*Wild camping - Apparently we all leave rubbish around the place

I like doing a bit f work around the house, making my own bits and pieces out of scraps of timber and metal, some day I wouldn't mind building my own house from scratch just like my granddad did but now there are so many regulations and "qualified nail hitter" laws to keep people in closed-shop trade lobbies happy. Can't even install a simple boiler without paying many euros to the various people you are required to bring in by law to install the bloody thing now.

I used to worry about these things a lot, but then I got off my hole, didn't spend so much time on boards and found out, as another poster mentioned if you just ignore these laws you'll be grand. You get a lot more done..

You can sit on your hole looking at boards the whole day and people are eager to tell you about all the laws you must obey that in reality nobody is going to bother you about, all the unlikely disaster scenarios that you must buy insurance for but I find now that when someone in real life is bothered by what you are doing and challenges you, that's soon enough to start thinking about stopping

Old ways

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