Old ways

FullblownRose

Everything seems quite tightly regulated nowadays. I seems that new rules and regulations come into effect very frequently. I doubt if very technology focused ppeople would notice r feel affected by this but not everyone is of the same view so I am curious as to whether others have noticed and are bothered ?

In fact it seems that so many rules come into force that it might eventually become impossible for anyone to maintain any old fashioned hobby or craft ithut special licenses and permits etc.

I see society as quite restrictive now, and I wonder if others here feel the same, either in relatin to the carrying out of old fashioned non technolog related activity or in any other ways?

Perhaps there is a more appropriate forum for this query, in which case a moderator might move the post for me

Fr_Dougal

Apparently Rolf Harris feels the same.

cloud493

Something something nanny state.

FullblownRose

TheZohan wrote: »

Apparently Rolf Harris feels the same.

Ah now.

I'm talking about traditiohnal crafts, farming, restoring machiner or cars, blacksmithing..stuff that's probably half died out already... and stuff..no need to drag it down into the gutter!

FullblownRose

cloud493 wrote: »

Something something nanny state.

Well yes.. it has not been an issue for you, i take it...

ceadaoin.

What old fashioned crafts and hobbies do you mean?

FullblownRose

ceadaoin. wrote: »

What old fashioned crafts and hobbies do you mean?

Any of them...blacksmithing and woodworking are the first that spring to mind....I know they're already almost obsolete but I am wondering if they'll become impossible because rules will be geared towards cleaner, more high technology industries...I am trying to understand whether this has alread been the case or whether anyone can offer some insight from personal experience...we do live in an era where mass production is normal and necessary...

Satriale

I've discovered that if you ignore many regulations your hobbies work away just fine without them.

TheBeardedLady

ceadaoin. wrote: »

What old fashioned crafts and hobbies do you mean?

Darning, fuzzwinking, leedle-doodling, thrembabbling and the likes.

Shakespeare's Sister

FullblownRose wrote: »

Well yes.. it has not been an issue for you, i take it...

Well it's just that it's a woefully over-used/misused phrase - think that's what they meant.
What do you mean specifically? Don't know what to say as your post is kinda vague.

I need more examples to make some kind of judgement. How do regulations affect hobbyist carpenters?

kneemos

Old folk love talking about how everything was slower and more difficult back I'm the day.
Don't know why you'd want to go back to it though,mass production is more environmentally friendly and cheaper.
If it's just a hobby I doubt anyone would care if you work some iron in the garden,as long as the neighbour's don't complain aboutb the smoke.

ceadaoin.

FullblownRose wrote: »

Any of them...blacksmithing and woodworking are the first that spring to mind....I know they're already almost obsolete but I am wondering if they'll become impossible because rules will be geared towards cleaner, more high technology industries...I am trying to understand whether this has alread been the case or whether anyone can offer some insight from personal experience...we do live in an era where mass production is normal and necessary...

Well I don't have much experience of those things but I wasn't aware that they were being restricted or that there is a possibility that they may be in the future?

Crafts and hobbies are different from industry. There is nothing stopping someone setting up a carpentry workshop in their shed if they wish is there? I'm sure there will always be a demand for high quality bespoke furniture or iron work but as that is more expensive, mass produced stuff is going to be more popular. But I don't think the handmade stuff will become obselete if that's what you're trying to say.

dxhound2005

FullblownRose wrote: »

Everything seems quite tightly regulated nowadays. I seems that new rules and regulations come into effect very frequently. I doubt if very technology focused ppeople would notice r feel affected by this but not everyone is of the same view so I am curious as to whether others have noticed and are bothered ?

In fact it seems that so many rules come into force that it might eventually become impossible for anyone to maintain any old fashioned hobby or craft ithut special licenses and permits etc.

I see society as quite restrictive now, and I wonder if others here feel the same, either in relatin to the carrying out of old fashioned non technolog related activity or in any other ways?

Perhaps there is a more appropriate forum for this query, in which case a moderator might move the post for me

Old fashioned spelling is a thing of the past.

I know, I know, you sent it from your phone and that is quite difficult.

Tail Docker

Bob Dylan makes and sells steel gates as his hobby. Who knew?? They sell for a lot too.

The Backwards Man

I agree.


*sips poitin*

TheBeardedLady

Candie wrote: »

I need more examples to make some kind of judgement. How do regulations affect hobbyist carpenters?

Bugle-grobling, winkytaling, pinch-minch....there's literally 100s!

TheBeardedLady

TheBeardedLady wrote: »

Bugle-grobling, winkytaling, pinch-minch....there's literally 100s!

No nanny state interference needed in any of those.

Except bugle-grobling, I suspect that one carries a health risk.

TheBeardedLady

Candie wrote: »

No nanny state interference needed in any of those.

Except bugle-grobling, I suspect that one carries a health risk.

Cheeky

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

A. What have regulations got to do with the demise of the blacksmith?
B. I remember the smithies well and it was not regulations that did them in.
C. Things move on. Such is life. Fletchers are no longer employed by kings for instance.

hatrickpatrick

Ireland seems to be far worse than many other countries. Take the Irish Medicines Board for example - hundreds of bodybuilding supplements which are happily sold OTC in Britain and the US have to be smuggled into Ireland and have no chance whatsoever of appearing in any shops. St John's Wort is another example.

Country is ridiculous but what can we do about it? Most of the quangos which bring these regulations in, such as the IMB, are unelected and therefore entirely unaccountable to the public. :mad:

dxhound2005

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Ireland seems to be far worse than many other countries. Take the Irish Medicines Board for example - hundreds of bodybuilding supplements which are happily sold OTC in Britain and the US have to be smuggled into Ireland and have no chance whatsoever of appearing in any shops. St John's Wort is another example.

Country is ridiculous but what can we do about it? Most of the quangos which bring these regulations in, such as the IMB, are unelected and therefore entirely unaccountable to the public. :mad:

I think I can dectect a little bit of 'roid rage in that mad face.

anncoates

I was a cooper myself but that trade is a memory.

I lost out to redundancy around the time my mot ran off to Birmingham with a black student.

dxhound2005

anncoates wrote: »

I was a cooper myself but that trade is a memory.

I lost out to redundancy around the time my mot ran off to Birmingham with a black student.

Ah, the rare oul times.

Greenmachine

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Ireland seems to be far worse than many other countries. Take the Irish Medicines Board for example - hundreds of bodybuilding supplements which are happily sold OTC in Britain and the US have to be smuggled into Ireland and have no chance whatsoever of appearing in any shops. St John's Wort is another example.

Country is ridiculous but what can we do about it? Most of the quangos which bring these regulations in, such as the IMB, are unelected and therefore entirely unaccountable to the public. :mad:

And to think I can go to any Greengrocer or supermarket and buy grapefruit.

dr.bollocko

Greenmachine wrote: »

And to think I can go to any Greengrocer or supermarket and buy grapefruit.

Opium is much harder to get over the counter too. Time was you couldn't have a good witch burning without it.

hatrickpatrick

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I think I can dectect a little bit of 'roid rage in that mad face.

PES Erase baby

Greenmachine

dr.bollocko wrote: »

Opium is much harder to get over the counter too. Time was you couldn't have a good witch burning without it.

's

Gee's linctus?

StewartGriffin

TheZohan wrote: »

Apparently Rolf Harris feels the same.

Feeble effort at thanks-whore humour recieving negligible thanks....

Fail!

Dermighty

FullblownRose wrote: »

Ah now.

I'm talking about traditiohnal crafts, farming, restoring machiner or cars, blacksmithing..stuff that's probably half died out already... and stuff..no need to drag it down into the gutter!

A major reason blacksmithing and traditional crafts are gone for has to do with the division of labour more than 200 years ago!

FloatingVoter

Tail Docker wrote: »

Bob Dylan makes and sells steel gates as his hobby. Who knew?? They sell for a lot too.

Harrison Ford is a very good carpenter. He was making a handy living from it until Star Wars came along.
Clint Eastwood used to dig the holes for swimming pools - cheap Hollywood gits wouldn't get in a JCB back in the '50s.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Rod Stewart used to dig graves in London.

Pete Doherty actually did the same before the Libertines formed, whilst cursing his English and History Degree.

FullblownRose

Cruz Helpless Vineyard wrote: »

A. What have regulations got to do with the demise of the blacksmith?
B. I remember the smithies well and it was not regulations that did them in.
C. Things move on. Such is life. Fletchers are no longer employed by kings for instance.

For anyone who wanted to continue/ressurect that tradition, it might now be an issue.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

FullblownRose wrote: »

For anyone who wanted to continue/ressurect that tradition, it might now be an issue.

Why? You really need to explain your hypothesis better.

FullblownRose

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Old fashioned spelling is a thing of the past.

I know, I know, you sent it from your phone and that is quite difficult.

Along with valuable contributions?

FullblownRose

Cruz Helpless Vineyard wrote: »

Why? You really need to explain your hypothesis better.

I was hoping someone with more experience of these things might.

FullblownRose

The mechanics trade might be another example.

Not so much hobby craftspeople but for people who want to seriously revive or continue old methods. Unless someone here actually has experience of doing it and can tell me whether they find any aspect of it difficult then I'm just guessing ..

mawk

Jack White was a successful furniture upholster before the white stripes


To the point though, I built a forge and beat iron in my garden for fun. No regulation involved and I don't see how it could interfere.

looksee

Fullblownrose, you have put forward a theory that you haven't explained, and you are asking other people to explain it for you. But we don't understand what your problem is. People who want to practise old-fashioned skills do so, many people are not interested as there are other things they prefer to do.

I am personally interested in several crafts that have been more or less forgotten except by a relatively small number of people. We practise and demonstrate them, there are no problems apart from the degree of interest out there. From a practical point of view there are other crafts and skills that have satisfactorily replaced the ones we do, so the only real point of them is from their historical interest. Not everyone wants to do crafts just for their historical value. Indeed not everyone wants to do crafts.

There are huge numbers of people (not including me) who are interested in building, using and developing computers. This is just a modern version of the practise of the crafts you are talking about. Older crafts die out because they cease to be economically viable or relevant, and only a few enthusiasts are left who do them at their own expense rather than make a living out of them.

Take up one of the crafts you are mourning, you will soon find there are lots of people doing the same, but more as a community of interest than competing commercially.

FullblownRose

looksee wrote: »

Fullblownrose, you have put forward a theory that you haven't explained, and you are asking other people to explain it for you. But we don't understand what your problem is. People who want to practise old-fashioned skills do so, many people are not interested as there are other things they prefer to do.

I am personally interested in several crafts that have been more or less forgotten except by a relatively small number of people. We practise and demonstrate them, there are no problems apart from the degree of interest out there. From a practical point of view there are other crafts and skills that have satisfactorily replaced the ones we do, so the only real point of them is from their historical interest. Not everyone wants to do crafts just for their historical value. Indeed not everyone wants to do crafts.

There are huge numbers of people (not including me) who are interested in building, using and developing computers. This is just a modern version of the practise of the crafts you are talking about. Older crafts die out because they cease to be economically viable or relevant, and only a few enthusiasts are left who do them at their own expense rather than make a living out of them.

Take up one of the crafts you are mourning, you will soon find there are lots of people doing the same, but more as a community of interest than competing commercially.

I was merely curious, not mourning. Yes, I am fully aware that older manufacturing processes die out because they're less viable etc etc, thank you.

Shenshen

FullblownRose wrote: »

Everything seems quite tightly regulated nowadays. I seems that new rules and regulations come into effect very frequently. I doubt if very technology focused ppeople would notice r feel affected by this but not everyone is of the same view so I am curious as to whether others have noticed and are bothered ?

In fact it seems that so many rules come into force that it might eventually become impossible for anyone to maintain any old fashioned hobby or craft ithut special licenses and permits etc.

I see society as quite restrictive now, and I wonder if others here feel the same, either in relatin to the carrying out of old fashioned non technolog related activity or in any other ways?

Perhaps there is a more appropriate forum for this query, in which case a moderator might move the post for me

Huh? I can't say that I find the rules surrounding knitting or making jams and preserves very restrictive at all?
Or would you be talking more old-fashioned than that?

looksee

FullblownRose wrote: »

The mechanics trade might be another example.

Not so much hobby craftspeople but for people who want to seriously revive or continue old methods. Unless someone here actually has experience of doing it and can tell me whether they find any aspect of it difficult then I'm just guessing ..

How could you 'seriously revive or continue old methods' of mechanics when modern production methods have moved on? People do restore old cars, mostly at their own expense, but why would people take modern cars to someone doing 'old fashioned' mechanics?

You have said yourself that you understand why processes die out, so what are you asking, what exactly are you curious about?

FullblownRose

looksee wrote: »

How could you 'seriously revive or continue old methods' of mechanics when modern production methods have moved on? People do restore old cars, mostly at their own expense, but why would people take modern cars to someone doing 'old fashioned' mechanics?

You have said yourself that you understand why processes die out, so what are you asking, what exactly are you curious about?

I thought of mechanics as a more current trade than some other examples-one that seems to be on the wane, or at least the way garages operate is changing rapidly. more geeky than greasy, so to speak.
I get the impression that small businesses like that will be pushed out because of more advanced computerised engines and diagnostic systems. Two different issues, I know.
As to whether there are tighter restrictions affecting how businesses like that operate, I don't know enough about mechanics to know whether it's an issue. Yearly n.c.t tests on cars motivate people to drive newer cars so I suppose that'll contribute to the deise of old school mechanics.

I hear a bit of grumbling from farmer friends about rules and regulations, but again I'm not a farmer so I'm not too clear on the kind of rules that would make their business difficult. I recall one friend having an issue with trees on his land, when he had applied for a government payment of some kind and in order to qualify for it, he was required to remove a number of trees (to maximise grazing potential?)
even though some of them were not taking up much room or they weren't on arable/grazing land.

I am just wondering have any boards.ie members had experience of rules that the felt made things that bit more awkward for them to conduct their business.

The old-fashioned kinds of jobs might be obsolete to all but a few anyway but they came to mind because they seem like the kind of activities that might not be as 'clean' or environmentally friendly as modern technology based work.

FullblownRose

Shenshen wrote: »

Huh? I can't say that I find the rules surrounding knitting or making jams and preserves very restrictive at all?
Or would you be talking more old-fashioned than that?

You'd probabl have to go through more hoops if you wanted to sell your ams nowadays. I see your point, though.

More manual-labourish? Dirtier? More industrial?

Czarcasm

There are a number of reasons why industries die out, partly due to modernisation, very little to do with regulation, but more to do with market viability. Agriculture in Ireland has been in decline for decades, and if it weren't for EU grants and subsidies, agriculture in Ireland would've died out a lot sooner. I see though we're now learning new ways of doing business from countries like New Zealand and The Netherlands among others.

If it's cottage industries in crafts you're talking about OP, there's a bit of a resurgence going on at the moment in Irish art, crafts and design, and the Irish Government is looking at the UK and seeing how they encourage cottage industries like food and textiles.

Apprenticeships are becoming a popular option again as more young people are interested in gaining a trade and travelling, using their skills both here and abroad.

If it's just regulations alone as a barrier to employment and economic growth you're talking about, well there are a number of industries and services that are still unregulated where the black market economy is thriving, and for some people that's a good thing, but for most people, the black market economy is a curse!

Regulation aren't about creating barriers to economic growth, they're about introducing standards in industry and services, for the good of consumers.

FullblownRose

Czarcasm wrote: »

Regulation aren't about creating barriers to economic growth, they're about introducing standards in industry and services, for the good of consumers.

Aye, which is a good thing for everyone in theory but in practise they don't *always* make a lot of sense. I'm sure people must become tired of prohibitive, costly requirements when they don't really serve a purpose.

I'm not implying that there shouldn't be any regulation on any kind of activity and that it's all bad, or that it's crushing small business or has caused the demise of older methods of doing things- I think we can all agree that things progress and modern methods just replace the older ones.


I suppose it would help if I could provide some examples of my own, since it definitely does not seem to be an issue that's ever been relevant to the posters here, but despite hearing people mentioning a few things over the years they're not here right now for me to ask them how they're getting on and what obstacles they face in terms of regulations.

The farmer who had to do some extensive-needless- tree cutting is the only one I can recall at the moment.

dxhound2005

Some encouragement from England, at least on the food front for those who think old ways were dying out. Forty years ago the BBC did a series about local food traditions which were supposed to be in the hands of the last generation of practitioners. But instead a follow up series this year discovered that they are still mostly going strong.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04f8m56

fergal.b

I build old style wooden boats but now if I want to sell one I have to wait over 5 years so it becomes secondhand and not a new boat, if I was to sell it as soon as it's built I would have to get a CE cert to prove it's up to EU standers the same way as if I was setting up a car factory so it's just not feasible for me. I guess the CE cert has it's good points in that every costumer gets the same product built to the same standard but with handcrafted wooden boats it would take a robot to replicate them not hands



.

FullblownRose

fergal.b wrote: »

I build old style wooden boats but now if I want to sell one I have to wait over 5 years so it becomes secondhand and not a new boat, if I was to sell it as soon as it's built I would have to get a CE cert to prove it's up to EU standers the same way as if I was setting up a car factory so it's just not feasible for me. I guess the CE cert has it's good points in that every costumer gets the same product built to the same standard but with handcrafted wooden boats it would take a robot to replicate them not hands



.

looksee

FullblownRose wrote: »

Aye, which is a good thing for everyone in theory but in practise they don't *always* make a lot of sense. I'm sure people must become tired of prohibitive, costly requirements when they don't really serve a purpose.

fergal.b wrote: »

I build old style wooden boats but now if I want to sell one I have to wait over 5 years so it becomes secondhand and not a new boat, if I was to sell it as soon as it's built I would have to get a CE cert to prove it's up to EU standers the same way as if I was setting up a car factory so it's just not feasible for me. I guess the CE cert has it's good points in that every costumer gets the same product built to the same standard but with handcrafted wooden boats it would take a robot to replicate them not hands

It seems to me that having to have a standard for handmade boats makes a great deal of sense, and in fact would encourage the craft rather than discourage it, who would want to buy something like a boat with no guarantee that it was sea-worthy?

whisky_galore

The Backwards Man wrote: »

I agree.


*sips poitin*

Who's your dealer? :cool: