Ukraine: As it happens.

darkpagandeath · 05-09-2014 03:42PM

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

No 2 is as yet unproven. Until it is proven to be true it cannot be stated as incontrovertible. Full stop.
No 3 is what is known as a non sequitur...the use of the word ''as'' in the middle implies that the first part is correct because the second part is correct. But in this case it proves to be a fallacy (the non sequitur part) for one cannot say that because the separatists have no air force ergo Ukraine does not shoot down planes. It is a leap too far.

Regarding points 1, 4, 5 6, and 7, because points 2 and 3 remain as yet unproven, one cannot reach an incontrovertible conclusion. As I have said before, Pro Russian separatists MAY indeed be responsible for the tragedy of MH17, but this remains unproven. Ukrainian air force or ground to air missiles may also be responsible. We simply do not KNOW yet. Sanctions and sabre-rattling based upon unproven accusation is at the very least foolish.

Do tell us then who else has been proven at this point to be shooting down aircraft in this region ? Saying others could have is just muddying the waters there is 0 proof of any other group or groups in this region that has been shooting down aircraft.

Egginacup · 05-09-2014 03:48PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Does not work that way I'm afraid this is a discussion board. And in relation to the answers given to my post. Are People insinuating Ukraine orchestrated this event or some kind of CIA black ops ? If people believe in such CT why not Russian Black ops doing the same ?

I'm not suggesting that Gatling not post on this site. He can post all he wants. I don't have the right to censor him. Only a moderator can do that. I'm recommending he not engage me in debate. He will no longer get a response since he ridiculed a post of mine, I provided rebuttal evidence and he refused to read it. That right there is somebody who can't be taken seriously.

Gatling · 05-09-2014 03:53PM

Egginacup wrote: »

I'm not suggesting that Gatling not post on this site

That wouldn't go down very well at all

Egginacup · 05-09-2014 03:53PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Do tell us then who else has been proven at this point to be shooting down aircraft in this region ? Saying others could have is just muddying the waters there is 0 proof of any other group or groups in this region that has been shooting down aircraft.

WRONG!

AC is not muddying the waters. You are guilty of what a lawyer would call "leading the witness". You state that because Novorussians have shot down planes then they are the ONLY one who are shooting down planes.

You can play this game till you're blue in the face but you aren't going to browbeat or bully people into caving in to your verbal gymnastics.

And you are aware of the meaning of the word "could" aren't you? It alludes to possibilities. "0 proof" is pretty much the definition of "could".
Saying that others could have shot down a plane is not muddying the waters. You stating that that others couldn't have shot down a plane because there is 0 proof, on the contrary, is a gross fallacy

Autonomous Cowherd · 05-09-2014 03:53PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Do tell us then who else has been proven at this point to be shooting down aircraft in this region ? Saying others could have is just muddying the waters there is 0 proof of any other group or groups in this region that has been shooting down aircraft.

Darkpagandeath, let us simply agree to differ.

You believe that it has been proven beyond reasonable doubt that separatists are responsible for MH17. I accept this as your opinion now.

I believe it has not been proven beyond reasonable doubt which party/individual is responsible for the massacre. This does not make me a conspiracy theorist. I am presuming now that you accept this as my opinion.

Time and history will write the story of Ukraine in these days. Personally, over and above any of my political interest in the unfolding events, which, given the catastrophe it is for the ordinary people of the area seems somewhat shallow even to myself, I am concerned that we have evolved to the 21st century and yet, as a global civilisation, we still show ourselves incapable of peaceful co-existence and humanity. It is such a terrible shame... given we experience such short and precious lives, on a unique planet. It truly makes me sad.

gandalf · 05-09-2014 04:03PM

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

No 2 is as yet unproven. Until it is proven to be true it cannot be stated as incontrovertible. Full stop.

Absolutely incorrect, the only people shooting planes down before and after the MH17 incident were the so called Rebels. Unless you and others are saying the Ukrainians were shooting their own planes down?

No 3 is what is known as a non sequitur...the use of the word ''as'' in the middle implies that the first part is correct because the second part is correct. But in this case it proves to be a fallacy (the non sequitur part) for one cannot say that because the separatists have no air force ergo Ukraine does not shoot down planes. It is a leap too far.

I don't recall the Rebels demonstrating that they had airpower around the time of the MH17 incident. If you or any of the other "alternative narrative" posse can show me something that counters this I will be most interested. I'll even accept a Russia Today link.

Regarding points 1, 4, 5 6, and 7, because points 2 and 3 remain as yet unproven, one cannot reach an incontrovertible conclusion. As I have said before, Pro Russian separatists MAY indeed be responsible for the tragedy of MH17, but this remains unproven. Ukrainian air force or ground to air missiles may also be responsible. We simply do not KNOW yet. Sanctions and sabre-rattling based upon unproven accusation is at the very least foolish.

Points 1, 2, 3, 4 from darkpagandeath lists from my perspective and the information I have seen and read are correct.

Point 5 and 6 are from social media so by themselves are not conclusive.

Point 7 is correct from the information I have seen.

However all the information, the conclusive and non-conclusive packaged together when looking at this situation from a logical point of view does support the most likely explanation that MH17 was shot down in Error by a "Rebels" using a BUK missile system supplied by the Russian military.

So far the alternative narratives I have seen are mainly tinfoil hat conspiracy theories.

From your perspective Autonomous Cowherd can you humour me and tell me what you believe the most likely narrative is?

Autonomous Cowherd · 05-09-2014 04:22PM

gandalf wrote: »

From your perspective Autonomous Cowherd can you humour me and tell me what you believe the most likely narrative is?

I have said time and again, Gandalf, that I do not know conclusively what happened. What my own speculations about the most likely narrative are, is not relevant. (Not to mention you dismiss all other theories as laughable). The material investigations aught to speak for themselves and I await them.

That is the thing with ''who dunnit'' narratives......we do not discover who is the culprit until the circumstances have all unfolded AND been proven. We do not arbitrarily put the Butler in stocks and start his punishment before Poirot has spoken definitively, and yet that is what has happened here. Punitive sanctions were imposed on Russia before guilt has been proven.

That is about all the humouring I feel like doing...

Elmer Blooker · 05-09-2014 04:24PM

Point 7 is correct from the information I have seen.

Point 7. Would you like to share this information that you have seen?

gandalf · 05-09-2014 04:36PM

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

I have said time and again, Gandalf, that I do not know conclusively what happened. What my own speculations about the most likely narrative are, is not relevant. (Not to mention you dismiss all other theories as laughable).

Fair enough I can respect that you are waiting to find out what happened to MH17.

Actually what I said was "So far the alternative narratives I have seen are mainly tinfoil hat conspiracy theories."

I haven't dismissed ALL other theories, just from my perspective the alternatives being presented have way more holes in them to be viable.

The material investigations aught to speak for themselves and I await them.

Hopefully.

That is the thing with ''who dunnit'' narratives......we do not discover who is the culprit until the circumstances have all unfolded AND been proven. We do not arbitrarily put the Butler in stocks and start his punishment before Poirot has spoken definitively, and yet that is what has happened here. Punitive sanctions were imposed on Russia before guilt has been proven.

I think you will find that the sanctions have been imposed because of Russias overall behaviour and not just because of MH17.

Based on an illegal annexation of Crimea and the support either indirectly or directly of the "Rebels" the sanctions are correct and totally justified from my perspective and certainly a much better alternative to nations starting a actual shooting war over this.

That is about all the humouring I feel like doing...

Thanks for replying to me.

gandalf · 05-09-2014 04:37PM

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Point 7. Would you like to share this information that you have seen?

I'll dig that up for you later on this evening.

darkpagandeath · 05-09-2014 04:38PM

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Point 7. Would you like to share this information that you have seen?

Well that was not UN soldiers at the crash site moving stuff with tractors and chopping up parts of the fuselage. Stuff had clearly been removed once investigators did get a look at it. Black boxes went missing until they realised they had been spotted taking them.

Iranoutofideas · 05-09-2014 04:50PM

This thread hasn't been half ruined by the people screaming for proof for every point made. Annoying as hell and both sides guilty of it.

Elmer Blooker · 05-09-2014 04:55PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Well that was not UN soldiers at the crash site moving stuff with tractors and chopping up parts of the fuselage. Stuff had clearly been removed once investigators did get a look at it. Black boxes went missing until they realised they had been spotted taking them.

^ That kind of stuff was doing the rounds in the days immediately following July 17th but disappeared off the news very quickly.
No one is claiming now or even believes that fuselage was removed from the crash site.
If you think this guy Michael Bociurkiw from the OSCE is a liar then thats your business. He makes it quite clear that it was the Ukrainian government who interfered in the investigation.

Yesterday, Michael Bociurkiw, spokesman for the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), made it absolutely plain that it was the Ukrainian government offensive that halted access to the crash site. Speaking in Donetz, he said: “We’ve been dealing with the [pro-Russian] separatists for three months and since the crash happened we’ve had access every day until this [fighting].”

Gatling · 05-09-2014 05:12PM

Iranoutofideas wrote: »

This thread hasn't been half ruined by the people screaming for proof for every point made. Annoying as hell and both sides guilty of it.

That's something isn't it some posters state this is the truth and every body is blinded by propaganda .
Then you have some who post various varfied links backing up posts .

Others repeat the following Nazis in Kiev propaganda with a sprinkling of Nato and US CIA are picking on Tzar Vlad the 1st .

And then you have the guys and gals looking on going WTF

darkpagandeath · 05-09-2014 05:42PM

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

^ That kind of stuff was doing the rounds in the days immediately following July 17th but disappeared off the news very quickly.
No one is claiming now or even believes that fuselage was removed from the crash site.
If you think this guy Michael Bociurkiw from the OSCE is a liar then thats your business. He makes it quite clear that it was the Ukrainian government who interfered in the investigation.

I did not say removed I said chopped up, And it was not Ukraine as they were not there at the time. Separatists had control of the site for over a week did they not.

Elmer Blooker · 05-09-2014 05:58PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I did not say removed I said chopped up, And it was not Ukraine as they were not there at the time. Separatists had control of the site for over a week did they not.

For the second time.
Michael Bociurkiw, OSCE :

he said: “We’ve been dealing with the [pro-Russian] separatists for three months and since the crash happened we’ve had access every day until this [fighting].”

darkpagandeath · 05-09-2014 06:18PM

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

For the second time.
Michael Bociurkiw, OSCE :

I was talking about the first week, not the weeks after when Ukraine engaged the separatists and started to push them back. In the first week the damage was already done.

mmmcake · 05-09-2014 06:32PM

Anders Fogh Rasmussen the head of NATO.
"Iraq has WMDs. It is not something we think, it is something we know. Iraq has itself admitted that it has had mustard gas, nerve gas, anthrax, but Saddam won't disclose. He won't tell us where and how these weapons have been destroyed. We know this from the UN inspectors, so there is no doubt in my mind."

Must be very well hidden, why believe him now when he talks about russia.

gandalf · 05-09-2014 06:53PM

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Point 7. Would you like to share this information that you have seen?

It is quite obvious that the crash site was heavily compromised. Some was probably deliberate like the attempt to take away the black boxes with them only being returned when video footage emerged of them being spirited away.

Of course because of the lax enforcement of the perimeter at lot of looting occured as well. Most it by the so called "Rebel" troops.

Again no doubt that the site was compromised by the so called "Rebels".

http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/121521

...The SMM observed that what appeared to be hand luggage had been collected into piles. The SMM saw that one of the largest pieces of debris had been split in two. Elsewhere, a considerable amount of smaller debris appeared to have been moved. The SMM observed that all bodies previously visible at the site had been recovered, although several smaller body parts remained....

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/mh17-crash-site-damaged-by-rebels-say-osce-inspectors-1.1874962

International inspectors have accused people working at the crash site of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 in Ukraine of damaging the wreckage and failing to collect all the remains of the 298 people on board who died.

The Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) made the claims, as some of the victims’ bodies were prepared for repatriation and the US pledged to reveal evidence linking the disaster to pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine.

......
Michael Bociurkiw, a spokesman for OSCE monitors who have visited the crash area several times, said the tail fin and other major pieces of the Boeing 777 appeared to have been “cut into”. The monitors said they “saw that one of the largest pieces of debris had been split in two. Elsewhere, a considerable amount of smaller debris appeared to have been moved.”

http://www.ibtimes.com/cameron-dalziel-mh17-victim-had-his-credit-card-stolen-used-looters-who-robbed-crash-site-163931

One of the 298 victims in the Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash reportedly had his credit card stolen from the site where the plane went down in eastern Ukraine and used by pro-Russian rebels who looted the area.

Cameron Dalziel’s wife, Reine, said she had to cancel her husband’s credit card when she saw account activity in the days after the jet was shot down on July 17. Reine’s brother, Shane Hattingh, told CNN the credit card was likely stolen by “heartless” pro-Russian rebels who officials said stole from the crash site.

"People are abusing it in the Ukraine,” Hattingh said. “They have no respect for each other, look what they're doing. It's no surprise that they were treating the remains of people like that. It made me angry beyond words.”

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/mh17-prorussian-woman-ekaterina-parkhomenko-took-instagram-selfie-allegedly-wearing-stolen-makeup/story-fnizu68q-1227002294758

A PRO-RUSSIAN woman living in the eastern separatist region of Ukraine posted pictures of herself on Instagram wearing makeup she claimed was looted from the Flight MH17 crash site.

“Mascara from Amsterdam, or rather from the field. Well, I think you know what I mean,” said Ekaterina Parkhomenko, who posted a picture of the stolen mascara on her now-deleted account, according to Central European News.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2700645/Is-moment-rebel-stole-plane-victims-ring-Outrage-picture-emerges-militia-rifling-MH17-wreckage.html

A photograph widely circulating on social media last night purported to show a Russian separatist fighter stealing a ring from a victim of the MH17 crash.

In the picture, which has not been independently verified, three rebels wearing military uniforms appear to be rifling through the wreckage.

A blonde-haired fighter, wearing a black beret, is bent over what looks like wreckage and apparently holding what seems to be a gold ring.

Elmer Blooker · 05-09-2014 07:16PM

I'm going to be very blunt and honest here but I feel almost sorry for anyone who's stupid and gullible enough to believe this. This isn't even good propaganda, its so pathetic it smells of desperation!
Sending the black boxes to the UK is tampering with evidence which in my book is a criminal offence.

A PRO-RUSSIAN woman living in the eastern separatist region of Ukraine posted pictures of herself on Instagram wearing makeup she claimed was looted from the Flight MH17 crash site.

“Mascara from Amsterdam, or rather from the field. Well, I think you know what I mean,” said Ekaterina Parkhomenko, who posted a picture of the stolen mascara on her now-deleted account, according to Central European News.

gandalf · 05-09-2014 07:22PM

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I'm going to be very blunt and honest here but I feel almost sorry for anyone who's stupid and gullible enough to believe this. This isn't even good propaganda, its so pathetic it smells of desperation!
Sending the black boxes to the UK is tampering with evidence which in my book is a criminal offence.

Ah that's why I posted the OSCE report first, you know its from the guy you have quoted twice earlier so obviously it is a source you deem worthy.

If I posted those other ones based on Social Media utterances alone you would have a point. But added to the OSCE report it does show that wide spread looting did occur on a site that the "Rebels" had control over within a very short period of time after the shooting down of the plane.

Any comments on the OSCE report?

Egginacup · 05-09-2014 07:42PM

gandalf wrote: »

Absolutely incorrect, the only people shooting planes down before and after the MH17 incident were the so called Rebels. Unless you and others are saying the Ukrainians were shooting their own planes down?

I don't recall the Rebels demonstrating that they had airpower around the time of the MH17 incident. If you or any of the other "alternative narrative" posse can show me something that counters this I will be most interested. I'll even accept a Russia Today link.

Points 1, 2, 3, 4 from darkpagandeath lists from my perspective and the information I have seen and read are correct.

Point 5 and 6 are from social media so by themselves are not conclusive.

Point 7 is correct from the information I have seen.

However all the information, the conclusive and non-conclusive packaged together when looking at this situation from a logical point of view does support the most likely explanation that MH17 was shot down in Error by a "Rebels" using a BUK missile system supplied by the Russian military.

So far the alternative narratives I have seen are mainly tinfoil hat conspiracy theories.

From your perspective Autonomous Cowherd can you humour me and tell me what you believe the most likely narrative is?

It doesn't matter whether or not Kiev forces have been shooting down planes. If I had never robbed a bank and shot someone dead and then a bank was robbed and someone was shot one day, the fact that I had never done this before isn't grounds to rules me out as a suspected perpetrator. Please stop using that less than fragile angle.

And if, as you suggest, that Novorussians shot the plane down by mistake, then why the punitive sanctions against Russia?

gandalf · 05-09-2014 07:49PM

Egginacup wrote: »

It doesn't matter whether or not Kiev forces have been shooting down planes. If I had never robbed a bank and shot someone dead and then a bank was robbed and someone was shot one day, the fact that I had never done this before isn't grounds to rules me out as a suspected perpetrator. Please stop using that less than fragile angle.

But you have to concede that the more likely explanation, the more logical one is that the "Rebels" or what ever they label themselves today are the most likely to have pressed the button.

And if, as you suggest, that Novorussians shot the plane down by mistake, then why the punitive sanctions against Russia?

Illegal annexation of Crimea, destablising a neighbouring nation indirectly at first and now directly by sending in troops would be a good starting point.

Elmer Blooker · 05-09-2014 08:42PM

gandalf wrote: »

Ah that's why I posted the OSCE report first, you know its from the guy you have quoted twice earlier so obviously it is a source you deem worthy.

If I posted those other ones based on Social Media utterances alone you would have a point. But added to the OSCE report it does show that wide spread looting did occur on a site that the "Rebels" had control over within a very short period of time after the shooting down of the plane.

Any comments on the OSCE report?

I can't see anything in that report that suggests "looting". It says that belongings of passengers were put into piles which suggests the opposite.
You could argue that moving debris was part of the search for bodies.
To be honest, at this stage I'm more interested to know why the US, Lithuania and Australia blocked a motion proposed by Russia at the UN to enforce a ceasefire at the crash site which brings us back to "the guy I quoted twice". If "Putin's missile" did it why prevent investigators getting to the crash site?

sportloto86 · 08-09-2014 07:13PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

7 Panic sets in separatists move to the area and start destroying evidence and messing with bodies.

Can someone please tell me what people mean when they say "destroying evidence and messing with bodies"? Especially messing with bodies part.

Red Nissan · 08-09-2014 07:20PM

sportloto86 wrote: »

Can someone please tell me what people mean when they say "destroying evidence and messing with bodies"? Especially messing with bodies part.

If I blew up an aircraft and there was evidence like a big piece of shrapnel in someone's arm with the inscription "property of Red Nissan" on it, I'd possibly remove the body and destroy it, or take the offending part away and destroy just that part.

I'd also collect all the shell fragments that I could as they'd all have the inscription "property of Red Nissan" on them like.

I have not actually shot down any aircraft and I have no intention of doing so anytime soon or ever, but if I did like and the rest of the world was upset, well.

obplayer · 08-09-2014 07:22PM

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I can't see anything in that report that suggests "looting". It says that belongings of passengers were put into piles which suggests the opposite.
You could argue that moving debris was part of the search for bodies.
To be honest, at this stage I'm more interested to know why the US, Lithuania and Australia blocked a motion proposed by Russia at the UN to enforce a ceasefire at the crash site which brings us back to "the guy I quoted twice". If "Putin's missile" did it why prevent investigators getting to the crash site?

Was Russia proposing to police the site? If so I don't blame the UN for blocking the motion.

deco nate · 08-09-2014 07:34PM

Thier is a documentary on bbc1 now about this.

comongethappy · 08-09-2014 07:43PM

deco nate wrote: »

Thier is a documentary on bbc1 now about this.

Putin's fan-boyz won't like it.

(Wicked propaganda that it is!)

BoJack Horseman · 08-09-2014 07:48PM

Indeed, BBC1 is worth a watch.

The incessant cries of "there is no evidence" .... is taking a battering.

Ukraine: As it happens.

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