Golf Club - Best Practices

PARlance · 27-08-2014 03:04PM

Arsenium wrote: »

So long as they are within SSS +2 or better then the % will change. As in good scores.

If someone with SSS+18 doesnt return their card, they are not impacting how CSS is calculated. As long as they have signed in.

So it's only good scores not being returned that breaks CSS, failing to return a bad score does not.

I think a NR does impact it as Russman says.

Suppose there are 10 Cat 1's in comp.
2 score SSS +2 or better. 8 don't obviously.
If all 10 return then SSS+2 or better is 20%. (2/10)
If 2 bad scores don't, then SSS+2 or better is now 25%. (2/8)

That's my understanding of it. Open to correction though.

Freemount09 · 27-08-2014 03:20PM

So this was a good local rule so ? to try to ensure there are no NR's !?? yes ??

GreeBo · 27-08-2014 03:29PM

Freemount09 wrote: »

So this was a good local rule so ? to try to ensure there are no NR's !?? yes ??

I think an NR should result in being banned from the next comp, unless the player can provide a good reason.

Freemount09 · 27-08-2014 04:03PM

What good reason is there though !??

Its usually the same ol people each week who don't return their cards. Looking at results recently on HDID there was more than 10% of the field on a given day had NR's

Good luck trying to ban someone from next wks comp !?

The paying comp entry through BRS wallet is good to deter dropouts and timesheet hoggers.

Arsenium · 27-08-2014 04:08PM

PARlance wrote: »

I think a NR does impact it as Russman says.

Suppose there are 10 Cat 1's in comp.
2 score SSS +2 or better. 8 don't obviously.
If all 10 return then SSS+2 or better is 20%. (2/10)
If 2 bad scores don't, then SSS+2 or better is now 25%. (2/8)

That's my understanding of it. Open to correction though.

Oh. My understanding of the % is that it is measured on the number of players in the competition (signed in).

So 100 enter the comp. 20 return a score of SSS+2 or better. % is 20% (for ease of example). So the other 80 dont count as far as CSS is concerned. If, out of those 80 cards, 10 of them are NRs for bad scores, then even if they were considered, the % would still be 20%.

However if, out of those 80 cards, 10 of them were NRs because of good scores, the correct % should be 30% but as a result of not returning, it stays at 20%.

So I suppose the question is, what % are we talking about here. The number of scores in SSS+2 as a % of all the signed in players, or as a % of the returned scores?

TheDoc · 27-08-2014 04:10PM

GreeBo wrote: »

I think an NR should result in being banned from the next comp, unless the player can provide a good reason.

I think a strong arguement is that a competitor has the right to withdraw him/herself from competition. While it's ****ty if your playing with strangers and leave the group who will be caught behind traffic, that's more an "ethics" issue.

our club has a like three strikes your out sort of thing. But if I got removed from competition for an NR, I'd be taking the matter as far as I could.

Russman · 27-08-2014 04:18PM

Arsenium wrote: »

Oh. My understanding of the % is that it is measured on the number of players in the competition (signed in).

So 100 enter the comp. 20 return a score of SSS+2 or better. % is 20% (for ease of example). So the other 80 dont count as far as CSS is concerned. If, out of those 80 cards, 10 of them are NRs for bad scores, then even if they were considered, the % would still be 20%.

However if, out of those 80 cards, 10 of them were NRs because of good scores, the correct % should be 30% but as a result of not returning, it stays at 20%.

So I suppose the question is, what % are we talking about here. The number of scores in SSS+2 as a % of all the signed in players, or as a % of the returned scores?

I would imagine, although open to correction, that its returned scores (ie entered on the computer). Can't see the logic of basing a calculation on the number of entries - obviously they should be the same, but "should" is the operative word, I'd say the calculation is worked to exclude that potential doubt.

Arsenium · 27-08-2014 04:21PM

The mechanics of the CSS calculation are:
- Establish the composition of the ‘field’ as a percentage of each handicap
category excluding category 4 for men or category 5 for ladies. e.g. 10% Cat.1
50% Cat.2 40% Cat3[[+ Cat. 4 for Ladies]
- Establish the percentage of the ‘field’ (Cat.1 + Cat.2 + Cat.3 [+ Cat.4]) with a
Net score of the SSS +2 or better e.g. 20%
- Refer to Appendix B Competition Scratch Score Table
- Using this example the CSS would be the SSS +1.

From the CONGU definition. Not sure if it clarifies it much :-) Any handicap secretaries on here???

Russman · 27-08-2014 04:22PM

TheDoc wrote: »

our club has a like three strikes your out sort of thing. But if I got removed from competition for an NR, I'd be taking the matter as far as I could.

Do you mean an NR as in not returning a card at all, or an NR as in entering "no score on hole" on the computer, but still returning your card ?
Big difference IMO.

Is it not one of the players responsibilities to return all cards ?

Anyone can drive home and find their card still in their pocket, happened to me about two weeks ago ! So I think 3 strikes and you're out is fine, ie 3 cards not returned and handicap suspended for 3 weeks or something.

Dr_Colossus · 27-08-2014 05:07PM

GreeBo wrote: »

I think an NR should result in being banned from the next comp, unless the player can provide a good reason.

TheDoc wrote: »

I think a strong arguement is that a competitor has the right to withdraw him/herself from competition. While it's ****ty if your playing with strangers and leave the group who will be caught behind traffic, that's more an "ethics" issue.

our club has a like three strikes your out sort of thing. But if I got removed from competition for an NR, I'd be taking the matter as far as I could.

I side with GreeBo on above, barring injury or medical condition I can't see why someone should withdraw themselves from competition. Once you sign up to play the competition you should finish regardless of form and conditions.

I've played in some horrendous conditions and on occasion when the weather made the course(s) borderline unplayable but have never once withdrawn from competition. On the other hand I've played with plenty of playing partners who've walked off the course either because they weren't playing great or the conditions got tough and to their disliking. I've tried persuading them to keep playing and on one occasion during a 36 hole scratch cup had an awful job trying to convince the two people I was paired with to continue mid way through the second round when it became very wet. That wasn't a pleasant round as one of them in particular mentioned a few times how I wasn't playing good golf and wasn't going to win so why was I continuing and in turn keeping them on the course.

My motto is once you're down to play the competition finish out the round and try and eek out every point or score you can.

tayto lover · 27-08-2014 05:11PM

GreeBo wrote: »

For the vast majority of players a tee or not makes no difference to the divot created on a tee box.

We have to take bags of quick growing seed mixed with soil when we go out. We repair divots, both ours and those not fixed by other players. We have a stand with rows of filled bags at the first tee plus boxes full of this stuff at every third tee-box.

You wouldn't believe the benefit to the course this has.

FixdePitchmark · 27-08-2014 05:13PM

Dr Colossus.

I'd be of your way of thinking and never walk on someone.

But in Ireland we all have to accept that certain days when say you have 12 points after 15 . There comes an end point for the majority, in extreme conditions .

bustercherry · 27-08-2014 06:06PM

Andy Dunne11 wrote: »

Use a tee on par 3's to protect the tee boxes.
Swap cards before play starts.

Utter nonsense. If hitting an iron on the tee box, it will be tee'd down low and you still take a divot. This sort of stuff really gets on my nerves :mad:

If clubs are that bothered about their tee boxes, provide some divot mix.

GreeBo · 27-08-2014 06:10PM

tayto lover wrote: »

We have to take bags of quick growing seed mixed with soil when we go out. We repair divots, both ours and those not fixed by other players. We have a stand with rows of filled bags at the first tee plus boxes full of this stuff at every third tee-box.

You wouldn't believe the benefit to the course this has.

We do too, but that has no bearing on teeing it up on a tee box or not

I often see people take a bag of sand and then bring it back full "because they didnt take many divots"
Its not there for the journey, fill any you see people!

GreeBo · 27-08-2014 06:11PM

TheDoc wrote: »

I think a strong arguement is that a competitor has the right to withdraw him/herself from competition. While it's ****ty if your playing with strangers and leave the group who will be caught behind traffic, that's more an "ethics" issue.

our club has a like three strikes your out sort of thing. But if I got removed from competition for an NR, I'd be taking the matter as far as I could.

If they are the rules of your competition then as far as you could isn't very far.
Why would you NR without a good reason?

CONGU wise you can withdraw etc if you want, but from a club competition point of view, you can deem this a punishable offence.

SaveOurLyric · 27-08-2014 07:03PM

GreeBo wrote: »

If they are the rules of your competition then as far as you could isn't very far.

Indeed. Its as far as.....all the way to the committee that makes the rules. They are probably going to rule in their own favour.........

TrapperChamonix · 28-08-2014 08:26AM

GreeBo wrote: »

We do too, but that has no bearing on teeing it up on a tee box or not

I often see people take a bag of sand and then bring it back full "because they didnt take many divots"
Its not there for the journey, fill any you see people!

The more I fill in divots the less likely I am to land in one myself. Every time you take a divot, repair 2.
If you are carrying clubs the a full divot bag is too heavy as it swings off the bag, so have more boxes on the tees to refill your divot bag as you go along.

Also pitchmarks
1. Carry a pitch repair tool.
2. Learn how to repair correctly (incorrect repairs do more damage)
3. Repair your pitchmark.
4. Repair 1 additional pitchmark

blackwhite · 28-08-2014 08:33AM

tayto lover wrote: »

We have to take bags of quick growing seed mixed with soil when we go out. We repair divots, both ours and those not fixed by other players. We have a stand with rows of filled bags at the first tee plus boxes full of this stuff at every third tee-box.

You wouldn't believe the benefit to the course this has.

We have divot bags with seeded mix by the first tee, and usually a refill bin at the 10th.
It isn't compulsory to take one, but I think it'd be a great idea to make it a rule.

bustercherry · 28-08-2014 08:41AM

blackwhite wrote: »

We have divot bags with seeded mix by the first tee, and usually a refill bin at the 10th.
It isn't compulsory to take one, but I think it'd be a great idea to make it a rule.

You can't make it a rule as people carry clubs and it's unfair to add a weight penalty. It's not horse racing.

TrapperChamonix · 28-08-2014 09:29AM

bustercherry wrote: »

You can't make it a rule as people carry clubs and it's unfair to add a weight penalty. It's not horse racing.

Yes you can. It is compulsory in my course and signs erected informing all players.
If I'm carrying clubs, I empty 1/2 the mix out and then refill on the 10th. My issue with this is that with 1/2 a bag, I wouldn't have enough mix to fix divots other than my own. If they had the re bill boxes on every 3rd tee, would be better.
Its really not that much of an imposition.

Russman · 28-08-2014 09:41AM

TrapperChamonix wrote: »

Yes you can. It is compulsory in my course and signs erected informing all players.
If I'm carrying clubs, I empty 1/2 the mix out and then refill on the 10th. My issue with this is that with 1/2 a bag, I wouldn't have enough mix to fix divots other than my own. If they had the re bill boxes on every 3rd tee, would be better.
Its really not that much of an imposition.

What happens if someone doesn't take one ?

blackwhite · 28-08-2014 09:43AM

bustercherry wrote: »

You can't make it a rule as people carry clubs and it's unfair to add a weight penalty. It's not horse racing.

Everyone has the choice whether to carry or to use a cart.

If the rule is in place then everyone has to take one, there's no differentiating between one player or another.

bustercherry · 28-08-2014 10:06AM

Russman wrote: »

What happens if someone doesn't take one ?

I'd be curious on this too, I don't think you can make it a rule anyway whether it's unfair or not.

DuckSlice · 28-08-2014 10:23AM

bustercherry wrote: »

I'd be curious on this too, I don't think you can make it a rule anyway whether it's unfair or not.

Id imagine nothing. Can't really disqualify you from a comp or anything for it I would have thought!

TrapperChamonix · 28-08-2014 10:32AM

Russman wrote: »

What happens if someone doesn't take one ?

There is no penalty imposed. Just peer pressure. If you don't take one you're likely to get a gentle and polite reminder from your playing partner. I've said to others and had it said to me. If someone is carrying and I'm using a caddy car, I would sometimes offer to carry for them.

In my experience there is a very high level of compliance among members. You do get people who say, I never take a divot but they usually take a bag anyway and return it untouched.
Less so from visitors. Which I guess is because the visitors (often American or Scandinavian) are used to just replacing the divot on their home course. That doesn't work so well on Links fairways as the divot often disintegrates.

Ultimately it is my course ( well 1/800 is mine:D). My enjoyment is tied to the quality and condition of the course. If I (and the rest of the members) choose not to replace divots or fix pitch marks the consequence is either to pay more money for grounds staff to repair or to have poor conditioning of the course.

Russman · 28-08-2014 10:36AM

TrapperChamonix wrote: »

There is no penalty imposed. Just peer pressure. If you don't take one you're likely to get a gentle and polite reminder from your playing partner. I've said to others and had it said to me. If someone is carrying and I'm using a caddy car, I would sometimes offer to carry for them.

In my experience there is a very high level of compliance among members. You do get people who say, I never take a divot but they usually take a bag anyway and return it untouched.
Less so from visitors. Which I guess is because the visitors (often American or Scandinavian) are used to just replacing the divot on their home course. That doesn't work so well on Links fairways as the divot often disintegrates.

Ultimately it is my course ( well 1/800 is mine:D). My enjoyment is tied to the quality and condition of the course. If I (and the rest of the members) choose not to replace divots or fix pitch marks the consequence is either to pay more money for grounds staff to repair or to have poor conditioning of the course.

Ahhh no, I'm totally in agreement with them (the divot bags), I was just curious as to how its a "rule".
Same as in most courses that have them I'd say, compliance is very high once people get used to having to remember to fill the bag.

TrapperChamonix · 28-08-2014 10:40AM

Russman wrote: »

Ahhh no, I'm totally in agreement with them (the divot bags), I was just curious as to how its a "rule".
Same as in most courses that have them I'd say, compliance is very high once people get used to having to remember to fill the bag.

OK, I see from a number of comments that my use of the term "rule" is conjuring up penalties or disqualification from competitions. It is not a competition rule.

blackwhite · 28-08-2014 10:40AM

They were introduced in ours just over 2 years ago, and were nearly a victim of their own success.

Members were hanging them off their trolleys, and then forgetting to take them off when they got in after the round.

Emails were sent and notices put up asking people to check their car boots for divot bags because the club was running out of them

Arsenium · 28-08-2014 11:58AM

Russman wrote: »

I would imagine, although open to correction, that its returned scores (ie entered on the computer). Can't see the logic of basing a calculation on the number of entries - obviously they should be the same, but "should" is the operative word, I'd say the calculation is worked to exclude that potential doubt.

I am not obsessed I promise and neither do I want to hijack the thread

.

I just checked with the Congu UHS Manual. In appendix B on p53, it indicates that the % is calculated as a % of competitors (including "No Returns" and "DQ's"). I think that's a small but very key factor. As based on that, NR's for bad scores do not impact the CSS calculation if I understand it correctly. Which is pretty much the opposite to the commonly held belief when you listen to most people.

Freemount09 · 28-08-2014 01:21PM

tayto lover wrote: »

We have to take bags of quick growing seed mixed with soil when we go out. We repair divots, both ours and those not fixed by other players. We have a stand with rows of filled bags at the first tee plus boxes full of this stuff at every third tee-box.

You wouldn't believe the benefit to the course this has.

Good practice - which could and should be implemented by all courses

Golf Club - Best Practices

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