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Golf Club - Best Practices

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,505 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Arsenium wrote: »
    I am not obsessed I promise and neither do I want to hijack the thread :).

    I just checked with the Congu UHS Manual. In appendix B on p53, it indicates that the % is calculated as a % of competitors (including "No Returns" and "DQ's"). I think that's a small but very key factor. As based on that, NR's for bad scores do not impact the CSS calculation if I understand it correctly. Which is pretty much the opposite to the commonly held belief when you listen to most people.

    Only if people are forced to enter before they play, in many courses they are not...hence it impacts CSS... sometimes :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,000 ✭✭✭Russman


    Arsenium wrote: »
    I am not obsessed I promise and neither do I want to hijack the thread :).

    I just checked with the Congu UHS Manual. In appendix B on p53, it indicates that the % is calculated as a % of competitors (including "No Returns" and "DQ's"). I think that's a small but very key factor. As based on that, NR's for bad scores do not impact the CSS calculation if I understand it correctly. Which is pretty much the opposite to the commonly held belief when you listen to most people.

    Totally, but are these "No Returns" considered to be the ones entered on the computer, like when you hit "no score on hole", an "NR" appears for that hole and also for your final score (in strokes anyway) ?
    What about fellas that don't submit a card at all or enter their score on the computer ? I'm fairly sure, although I don't remember why, that its based on the number of results entered, be they NR or otherwise..... I think :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 644 ✭✭✭Arsenium


    Russman wrote: »
    Totally, but are these "No Returns" considered to be the ones entered on the computer, like when you hit "no score on hole", an "NR" appears for that hole and also for your final score (in strokes anyway) ?
    What about fellas that don't submit a card at all or enter their score on the computer ? I'm fairly sure, although I don't remember why, that its based on the number of results entered, be they NR or otherwise..... I think :)

    Well I dont see how it can be much clearer in fairness (at least in golfing documentation). They are calculated as a % of the "number of competitors including NR's and DQ's". So as a % of the total number of players who entered the competition. The total no. of players who signed in.

    The first bit (N/R on a hole) would not make any difference, its just treated as a nett double bogey for any calculations.

    The second bit. Fellas that dont submit a card. Isnt that the whole argument? If someone is having a terrible round and they rip up their card and dont enter anything on the computer, it gets reflected as an NR.

    Everyone says you should return all score cards because if you dont you are having an impact on the CSS. From looking at the formula on the CONGU manual, this is true, if your score is in your buffer zone or better. If it is outside the buffer zone then your score would have no impact on the CSS so not returning it makes no difference.

    So somebody with a good score not returning their card in order to avoid a handicap cut is impacting CSS.

    Someone with a bad score not returning their card in order avoid a 0.1 is not impacting CSS.

    Only golf could make a simple formula so confusing :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,000 ✭✭✭Russman


    Arsenium wrote: »
    Well I dont see how it can be much clearer in fairness (at least in golfing documentation). They are calculated as a % of the "number of competitors including NR's and DQ's". So as a % of the total number of players who entered the competition. The total no. of players who signed in.

    The first bit (N/R on a hole) would not make any difference, its just treated as a nett double bogey for any calculations.

    The second bit. Fellas that dont submit a card. Isnt that the whole argument? If someone is having a terrible round and they rip up their card and dont enter anything on the computer, it gets reflected as an NR.

    Everyone says you should return all score cards because if you dont you are having an impact on the CSS. From looking at the formula on the CONGU manual, this is true, if your score is in your buffer zone or better. If it is outside the buffer zone then your score would have no impact on the CSS so not returning it makes no difference.

    So somebody with a good score not returning their card in order to avoid a handicap cut is impacting CSS.

    Someone with a bad score not returning their card in order avoid a 0.1 is not impacting CSS

    Only golf could make a simple formula so confusing :)

    I can see what you're saying alright. I'm just not convinced the software works that way. I still think its based on the number of returns rather than the number of entries who sign in, mind you I'm only going from (hazy) memory on a season I did on competitions about 6/7 years ago. I could easily be wrong.

    Anyway, I think all clubs should make it impossible to enter the competition without logging into the computer first, that's the big potential gap in the system. I know a lot of the low h/cap guys in our place used to wait til they finished before signing in to the computer (or not, depending on their score). I had a look one time last year at our competition book Vs the returned scores on howdidido and most Saturdays there would be about 125 entries in the book and about 98-100 scores returned on computer.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,505 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    ^
    Thats the loophole that will impact CSS.
    We dont allow entering scores sooner than 90 mins after signing it to prevent it.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 644 ✭✭✭Arsenium


    GreeBo wrote: »
    ^
    Thats the loophole that will impact CSS.
    We dont allow entering scores sooner than 90 mins after signing it to prevent it.

    Exactly. If you can play the competition without signing in then the formula breaks. No way should it be allowed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,140 ✭✭✭✭TheDoc


    Russman wrote: »
    Do you mean an NR as in not returning a card at all, or an NR as in entering "no score on hole" on the computer, but still returning your card ?
    Big difference IMO.

    Is it not one of the players responsibilities to return all cards ?

    Anyone can drive home and find their card still in their pocket, happened to me about two weeks ago ! So I think 3 strikes and you're out is fine, ie 3 cards not returned and handicap suspended for 3 weeks or something.

    NR is no return. It is not entering a final score, or card at the end of your round for a competition.

    Examples of an NR would be
    • Player gets injured and leaves course during play
    • Player fed up and leaves the course during play
    • Player picks up ball in stroke competition and moves onto next hole, failing to register a stroke for that hole.

    There is no such thing as NR for a hole when marking it in a computer. That is a scratch for stableford, and is marked as a zero.

    If you didn't mark a hole on the computer for a stroke comp, that would be an NR, as you havn't completed a stroke score for your round.

    Your responsible for handing in your card, signed, and correct. Not someone elses.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,505 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    TheDoc wrote: »
    There is no such thing as NR for a hole when marking it in a computer. That is a scratch for stableford, and is marked as a zero.


    0 is an NR in strokes in the computer, its to allow you to still get cut via clause 19.
    In stableford you enter your strokes score and the computer calculates your points.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,140 ✭✭✭✭TheDoc


    GreeBo wrote: »
    If they are the rules of your competition then as far as you could isn't very far.
    Why would you NR without a good reason?

    CONGU wise you can withdraw etc if you want, but from a club competition point of view, you can deem this a punishable offence.

    Should have specified, I meant after one NR.

    The three strike rule is ample and your notified of each one. It's also three consecutive ones.

    It's more targeted in our place against bandits and players hiding scores from team managers however, it wasn't brought about for people leaving the course. So I've been told anyway.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,140 ✭✭✭✭TheDoc


    GreeBo wrote: »
    0 is an NR in strokes in the computer, its to allow you to still get cut via clause 19.
    In stableford you enter your strokes score and the computer calculates your points.

    How can you get cut for an NR?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 644 ✭✭✭Arsenium


    TheDoc wrote: »
    How can you get cut for an NR?

    As far as I know it works out what score you would need for a nett double bogey (clause 19) and this is added to your score.

    I noticed it yesterday again in the Congu book.

    Had the competitor made a ‘no score’ at the 5th hole rather than an 8 e.g. he lost a ball and did not put another into play, the effect, for handicap purposes would have been exactly the same i.e. a nett double
    bogey score of 7.
    By taking advantage of this clause and completing subsequent holes, competitors have the opportunity
    to return scores below their handicap or within their Buffer Zone even though they do not have a
    competition score.
    C O N G U ® U N I F I E D H A N D I C A P P I N G S Y S T E M
    36


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,000 ✭✭✭Russman


    TheDoc wrote: »
    NR is no return. It is not entering a final score, or card at the end of your round for a competition.

    Examples of an NR would be
    • Player gets injured and leaves course during play
    • Player fed up and leaves the course during play
    • Player picks up ball in stroke competition and moves onto next hole, failing to register a stroke for that hole.
    There is no such thing as NR for a hole when marking it in a computer. That is a scratch for stableford, and is marked as a zero.

    If you didn't mark a hole on the computer for a stroke comp, that would be an NR, as you havn't completed a stroke score for your round.

    Your responsible for handing in your card, signed, and correct. Not someone elses.

    I think you mistook what I meant, I meant returning the card is one of the responsibilities of the player, not one player returning everyone's cards in the group. Hence by not returning a card the player is not fulfilling his responsibilities.

    There is such a thing as NR for a hole on the computer in strokes, try it and see what happens. You enter No score at Hole, and your result will show an NR.
    That's my point, the score is a NR but it has been returned by virtue of being entered on the computer (and presumably the card put in the box). Its completely different to someone not entering their score or returning their card at all.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,505 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    TheDoc wrote: »
    How can you get cut for an NR?

    All handicap adjustments are via stableford score, an NR is just a blank.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 492 ✭✭TrapperChamonix


    As fascinating as CSS is, this one element has overwhelmed a thread that is about Best Practices. I'd suggest setting up a separate CSS thread if the debate MUST continue


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 644 ✭✭✭Arsenium


    As fascinating as CSS is, this one element has overwhelmed a thread that is about Best Practices. I'd suggest setting up a separate CSS thread if the debate MUST continue

    Fair point. But it does tie in with the thread in fairness. I would agree that the practice implemented in Greebo's club where a player cannot enter a score until 90 mins after signing in is a best practice that should be kept.

    It just took "quite" a long time to get there :p


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,505 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    As fascinating as CSS is, this one element has overwhelmed a thread that is about Best Practices. I'd suggest setting up a separate CSS thread if the debate MUST continue

    Its directly related to club practices regarding NR's


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