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How to drop your crime rate 20% - issue gun permits to residents

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Comments

  • #62
    Chucken
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,459 ✭✭✭Chucken


    Tail Docker wrote: »
    Could ye all shet yer traps with the whinin, I wants me a .44 in ma pockit. I'm all good with this Mr Mad, aint no nobody gonna mess with me an ma peestol. Ahl pop a cap in they a55. God Bless Murcareland.


    Only took 60 posts for the OPs ploy to work. (The ploy to turn Oirland into Murcaland)


  • #63
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    Isn't the Washington Times known for being a very conservative paper that has often been criticised as a propaganda piece for Republicans, Neocons, etc (who have always loved waiving their guns about)? It would explain them not going into any depth on this...


    http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-chicago-gun-violence-20140823-story.html
    Chicago is grappling with a crime paradox this summer: Even as overall crime including homicide drops, the rate of shooting incidents isn't slowing down and threatens to surpass previous years.

    The city’s violent summer continued Friday with at least 11 shootings, including one that left a 3-year-old boy hospitalized in critical condition.

    ...

    The city saw 205 incidents in 28 days, according to the most recent police statistics, with a higher number of shootings this year than the same time last year.


  • #64
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    You could just profile all the social demographics and eliminate those with high risk of committing a crime. You'd get amazing results!


  • #65
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    MadsL wrote: »
    What is your basis for suggesting that he was "surrounded by innocent bystanders" - I can find no evidence of that at all? Did you just insert it into this "reality version"??
    It's in the article. There were people in the store and the man stood outside preventing others from getting in. So there was more than one other person present; innocent bystanders.


  • #66
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Damn truth and facts

    http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/May-2014/Chicago-crime-rates/

    http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-chicago-gun-violence-20140823-story.html

    '11 shot, including 3-year-old boy, as Chicago gun violence worsens'


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  • #67
    Nino Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭Nino Brown


    My name is URL wrote: »
    In 2010, out of 53 homicides in Switzerland, 40 involved guns. If you think that easier legal access to guns is not in any way related to that then you're either deluded or just choosing to be ignorant.

    Firstly thinking that anybody who doesn't agree with you is either deluded or ignorant could be considered by many to be arrogant.
    There are two points I would make about that statistic, do you know how many of those guns were legally held? Because criminals tend to not use legally held firearms.
    And secondly you are assuming that with zero guns in Switzerland the murder rate would be 13, that is not the case. Many of those murders were going to happen anyway, the fact a gun was used is irrelevant,


  • #68
    The Peanut
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,169 ✭✭✭The Peanut


    I saw this great documentary a few weeks ago - The Purge 2 - which had some interesting proposals about controlling crime rates.

    Wasn't too impressed however.


  • #69
    Nino Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭Nino Brown


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Damn truth and facts

    http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/May-2014/Chicago-crime-rates/

    http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-chicago-gun-violence-20140823-story.html

    '11 shot, including 3-year-old boy, as Chicago gun violence worsens'

    The gun crime statistics from the US are shocking, but guns are not necessarily the problem, America has serious societal issues, including an extremely lacking mental health system.
    I lived in the US for a few years, I have a concealed weapons permit, and lived in an area where most people had a legally held firearm. Most CCW permits are held by white middle class males, so the area's with the highest concentration of firearms tend to have the lowest crime rates, a high density of firearms doesn't mean an higher crime rate, in fact there tends to be a lower crime rate in high gun density areas.


  • #70
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    My name is URL wrote: »
    Do you think the government of Ireland are going to fork out on paying for weapons training for its citizens?.

    In America, training is required for citizens to conceal carry, they pay for this themselves. Why would the government of Ireland need to pay anything?
    My name is URL wrote: »
    In 2010, out of 53 homicides in Switzerland, 40 involved guns. If you think that easier legal access to guns is not in any way related to that then you're either deluded or just choosing to be ignorant.

    In 2010 in Ireland there were 53 homicides of which 21 were gun related. If you consider population size that is 0.93 deaths per 100,000 in 2010 compared to Switzerland's 0.19 per 100,000. The gun homicide rate in Ireland is almost five times the rate of Switzerland.

    source: http://www.gunpolicy.org


  • #71
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,006 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    MadsL wrote: »
    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/aug/24/chicago-crime-rate-drops-as-concealed-carry-gun-pe/

    Illinois used to have a ban on private handgun carrying, and Chicago required the registration of all firearms but did not allow handguns to be registered, however following a Supreme Court decision, Illinois enacted the Firearm Concealed Carry Act and private registrations are on track to ht 100,000 by the end of the year.

    Whilst correlation is not causation, Reports of burglary and motor vehicle theft are down 20 percent and 26 percent, respectively. In the first quarter, the city’s homicide rate was at a 56-year low.

    Time to rethink Ireland's gun laws?
    its down due to less reporting, it is infact up

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



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  • #72
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    MadsL wrote: »
    In America, training is required for citizens to conceal carry, they pay for this themselves. Why would the government of Ireland need to pay anything?



    In 2010 in Ireland there were 53 homicides of which 21 were gun related. If you consider population size that is 0.93 deaths per 100,000 in 2010 compared to Switzerland's 0.19 per 100,000. The gun homicide rate in Ireland is almost five times the rate of Switzerland.

    source: http://www.gunpolicy.org

    We can also see that nearly 80% of the Swiss homicides involved guns, where as less than half of ours did.


  • #73
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    MadsL wrote: »
    Illinois used to have a ban on private handgun carrying, and Chicago required the registration of all firearms but did not allow handguns to be registered, however following a Supreme Court decision, Illinois enacted the Firearm Concealed Carry Act and private registrations are on track to ht 100,000 by the end of the year.

    Whilst correlation is not causation, Reports of burglary and motor vehicle theft are down 20 percent and 26 percent, respectively. In the first quarter, the city’s homicide rate was at a 56-year low.

    Time to rethink Ireland's gun laws?

    I don't want to live in a country where gun fantasists, gun worshippers, gun strokers, and movie/game fatasists, have easy access to guns to fufill their jerk off needs. Nor do I want US levels of crime here. If I did, I'd live in the USA. If that means no guns for most people, including me, I'm happy with that.


  • #74
    Nino Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭Nino Brown


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    I don't want to live in a country where gun fantasists have easy access to them. Nor do I want US levels of crime here. If I did, I'd live in the USA.

    You don't live in a country with US crime levels. But all a "Fantasist" needs to have access to them is permission to shoot on 2 farmers land, or membership to a gun club, hardly a major hurdle for a fantasist.


  • #75
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,006 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    y0ssar1an22 wrote: »
    Maybe give guns to the Gardai 1st to see what effect that has on crime. With proper training of course
    we all ready know, it will have no effect

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #76
    My name is URL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,626 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    MadsL wrote: »
    In America, training is required for citizens to conceal carry, they pay for this themselves. Why would the government of Ireland need to pay anything?

    People were mentioning Switzerland as an example of what might happen in Ireland. I mentioned that the Swiss government pays to train people how to handle and use weapons. They also pay for yearly and mandatory top-up training.

    Really.. the US is nothing much to aspire to when it comes to crime prevention, law enforcement or judicial process.
    In 2010 in Ireland there were 53 homicides of which 21 were gun related. If you consider population size that is 0.93 deaths per 100,000 in 2010 compared to Switzerland's 0.19 per 100,000. The gun homicide rate in Ireland is almost five times the rate of Switzerland.

    source: http://www.gunpolicy.org

    So.. leaving everything else aside, less than 40% of homicides in Ireland involved guns. As opposed to Switzerland where over 75% involved guns.

    Do you think that percentage would increase or decrease if more people owned guns?


  • #77
    DS86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 79 ✭✭DS86


    MadsL wrote: »
    Illinois used to have a ban on private handgun carrying, and Chicago required the registration of all firearms but did not allow handguns to be registered, however following a Supreme Court decision, Illinois enacted the Firearm Concealed Carry Act and private registrations are on track to ht 100,000 by the end of the year.

    Whilst correlation is not causation, Reports of burglary and motor vehicle theft are down 20 percent and 26 percent, respectively. In the first quarter, the city’s homicide rate was at a 56-year low.

    Time to rethink Ireland's gun laws?

    I have a picture of you in my head as an political campaigner on a TV advert "yeah sure manslaughter through provocation is up, but thanks to me, at least incidents of car robbery are down".


  • #78
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    We can also see that nearly 80% of the Swiss homicides involved guns, where as less than half of ours did.

    The estimated rate of private gun ownership in Ireland is 6.353 firearms per 100 people, The estimated rate of private gun ownership in Switzerland is 45.71 firearms per 100 people so again by population guns should be involved in homicides in Ireland at a rate of one seventh of Switzerland's...so approx 6 homicides, and yet the rate is more than three times the rate at 21 per year. Clearly gun numbers are not the factor at play in these statistics.


  • #79
    DS86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 79 ✭✭DS86


    MadsL wrote: »
    The estimated rate of private gun ownership in Ireland is 6.353 firearms per 100 people, The estimated rate of private gun ownership in Switzerland is 45.71 firearms per 100 people so again by population guns should be involved in homicides in Ireland at a rate of one seventh of Switzerland's...so approx 6 homicides, and yet the rate is more than three times the rate at 21 per year. Clearly gun numbers are not the factor at play in these statistics.

    And then punch ups amongst muppets become shoot ups. You've won me over, when are you running for election?


  • #80
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,006 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    MadsL wrote: »
    Where did I suggest that? What I did suggest is that the possibility that the person you are attacking in the street, or the home your are breaking into has a gun, has a deterrent effect.

    As someone pointed out above you cannot get a gun licence for self-defence purposes in Ireland. I think it is time to rethink that.
    it doesn't deter, if someone wants to break into your home they will, if they are guaranteed the home owner will have a gun then they will come with a couple of guns. no need to rethink it, keep the nonsense from the sespit in the sespit and leave this country continue to be a safe country to live, not like boys in the hood

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #81
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    end of the road wrote: »
    it doesn't deter

    Any evidence of that?


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  • #82
    DS86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 79 ✭✭DS86


    end of the road wrote: »
    if they are guaranteed the home owner will have a gun then they will come with a couple of guns.

    This.


  • #83
    Witcher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,521 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    end of the road wrote: »
    it doesn't deter, if someone wants to break into your home they will, if they are guaranteed the home owner will have a gun then they will come with a couple of guns. no need to rethink it, keep the nonsense from the sespit in the sespit and leave this country continue to be a safe country to live, not like boys in the hood

    Yeah, they're so desperate to steal your dvd player and ipad that they'll definitely tool up with multiple firearms.


  • #84
    My name is URL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,626 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    end of the road wrote: »
    if someone wants to break into your home they will, if they are guaranteed the home owner will have a gun then they will come with a couple of guns

    They're certainly more likely to arm themselves and be prepared to use potentially deadly force. There are studies which show that to be true.

    Also - http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17922-carrying-a-gun-increases-risk-of-getting-shot-and-killed.html
    Carrying a gun increases risk of getting shot and killed

    Packing heat may backfire. People who carry guns are far likelier to get shot – and killed – than those who are unarmed, a study of shooting victims in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, has found.


  • #85
    Nino Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭Nino Brown


    My name is URL wrote: »
    So.. leaving everything else aside, less than 40% of homicides in Ireland involved guns. As opposed to Switzerland where over 75% involved guns.

    Do you think that percentage would increase or decrease if more people owned guns?

    The 40% of murders in Ireland was almost entirely illegally held firearms, usually gang related.
    Civilians who legally acquire firearms in Ireland are responsible gun owners by an overwhelming majority, I would say the murder rate involving guns would rise by a negligible amount if legal gun ownership increased.


  • #86
    Nino Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭Nino Brown


    end of the road wrote: »
    it doesn't deter, if someone wants to break into your home they will, if they are guaranteed the home owner will have a gun then they will come with a couple of guns. no need to rethink it, keep the nonsense from the sespit in the sespit and leave this country continue to be a safe country to live, not like boys in the hood

    So if somebody wants to rob your TV, they'll get a firearm, and risk being killed, or doing life in prison? I don't think so, burglars aren't idiots, they understand risk-reward.


  • #87
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    My name is URL wrote: »
    They're certainly more likely to arm themselves and be prepared to use potentially deadly force. There are studies which show that to be true.

    Also - http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17922-carrying-a-gun-increases-risk-of-getting-shot-and-killed.html
    While it may be that the type of people who carry firearms are simply more likely to get shot, it may be that guns give a sense of empowerment that causes carriers to overreact in tense situations, or encourages them to visit neighbourhoods they probably shouldn't, Branas speculates. Supporters of the Second Amendment shouldn't worry that the right to bear arms is under threat, however. "We don't have an answer as to whether guns are protective or perilous," Branas says. "This study is a beginning."

    Yep, really conclusive....


  • #88
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    If you wake up in the middle of the night and three tooled up, drugged up, scumbags are downstairs robbing, you might get one of them with a gun if you are very lucky, but the other two will easily overpower you. Scubags have no fear of ordinary joe soaps with a gun. People have been watching too many movies again.

    So every house should have a gun ? Which means the scum bags that are robbing homes in the first place will also have them. Great solution to crime all right.


  • #89
    DS86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 79 ✭✭DS86


    Blay wrote: »
    Yeah, they're so desperate to steal your dvd player and ipad that they'll definitely tool up with multiple firearms.

    If somebody was desperate enough to break into a home to steal items such as those in order to say feed a drug habit, and they were aware that a homeowner was armed against intruders, then simple logic would dictate that of course they'd come to a house armed. Also incidents such as when a homeowner confronts an intruder/s, and whereas now we would have at worst an assault on the homeowner, with weapons we would be looking at homeowners either been shot and killed, or imprisoned for manslaughter.

    And yes all of the above scenario is more than possible, never underestimate what somebody that would break into your house in the first place would be capable of.


  • #90
    Nino Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭Nino Brown


    DS86 wrote: »
    If somebody was desperate enough to break into a home to steal items such as those in order to say feed a drug habit, and they were aware that a homeowner was armed against intruders, then simple logic would dictate that of course they'd come to a house armed.

    Or they'd stay the feck away from my house and go rob yours, much easier!


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  • #91
    My name is URL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,626 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    MadsL wrote: »
    Yep, really conclusive....

    Conclusive or not as it may be, bear in mind that they can only extrapolate data from their own study of one city before saying 'whether guns are protective or perilous' overall as far as general personal safety goes.

    They did however find a clear correlation between carrying a gun and an increased risk of getting shot.

    Other similar studies exist too and most show the same thing. I think I've linked you to a few in the past whenever this very same topic was being discussed.


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