How to drop your crime rate 20% - issue gun permits to residents

MadsL

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/aug/24/chicago-crime-rate-drops-as-concealed-carry-gun-pe/

Illinois used to have a ban on private handgun carrying, and Chicago required the registration of all firearms but did not allow handguns to be registered, however following a Supreme Court decision, Illinois enacted the Firearm Concealed Carry Act and private registrations are on track to ht 100,000 by the end of the year.

Whilst correlation is not causation, Reports of burglary and motor vehicle theft are down 20 percent and 26 percent, respectively. In the first quarter, the city’s homicide rate was at a 56-year low.

Time to rethink Ireland's gun laws?

roadsmart

Go away you nut job.

dgt

Use your phony guns as clubs!

AnonoBoy

"The only thing that can bring down a bad crime rate with a gun is a good crime rate with a gun."

Or something equally stupid.

4zn76tysfajdxp

Relaxed gun laws only have a place in countries where there are already millions of guns circulating illegally, like in America, in my opinion.

o1s1n

MadsL wrote: »

Whilst correlation is not causation...

This.

No guns, we're fine as we are, thanks.

Frosty McSnowballs

Time to rethink the archaic ban on pillow cases full of door knobs.

Bring that back.

Fighting Irish

Kailani Long Face wrote: »

Relaxed gun laws only have a place in countries where there are already millions of guns circulating illegally, like in America, in my opinion.

.

There's no going back this either

Skylinehead

MadsL wrote: »

Time to rethink Ireland's gun laws?

No, we're already far better than the States thanks. Introducing guns isn't going to help anything.

MadsL

Skylinehead wrote: »

No, we're already far better than the States thanks. Introducing guns isn't going to help anything.

There are approx 233,000 licences issued in Ireland for the possession of firearms, hardly introducing them.

pablomakaveli

We're fine as we are thanks.

DLMA23

Agree with the OP about the re-think on this country's gun laws, but only when AGS are suitably armed & constantly monitored/assessed in a firearms training module

Skylinehead

MadsL wrote: »

There are approx 233,000 licences issued in Ireland for the possession of firearms, hardly introducing them.

Be that as it may, it's not as if you can carry a pistol around in your pocket. Plus that's far less guns per head than the US. Do you actually think that doing this is going to solve anything?

Lyaiera

The Washington Times is the equivalent of a right wing tabloid. They refer to no scientific research on the effect of concealed carry permits. The Police Department refused to comment on whether CC permits reduced crime, instead saying that there have been significant improvements in policing. The only "Organisation" that they quote is one that refers to studies without mentioning the names of any of those studies. The organisation they quote, the Crime Prevention Research Centre has nothing to do with crime prevention and more the advancement of carry permits and loosening of gun laws. The Crime Prevention Research Centre is run by a nutter. And the only research he can cite as supporting the claims the Crime Prevention Research Centre make about carry permits is Lott's own discredited research.

shruikan2553

What about other crimes? One type of crime may be reduced but other crimes may rise.

Nino Brown

MadsL wrote: »

There are approx 233,000 licences issued in Ireland for the possession of firearms, hardly introducing them.

And you can now legally use them to defend yourself, but not acquire one to defend yourself.
I would be for home defense, being a valid reason to acquire a gun license in this country. If you want one for home defense they're not all that hard to get anyway.

y0ssar1an22

Maybe give guns to the Gardai 1st to see what effect that has on crime. With proper training of course

Lyaiera

MadsL wrote: »

There are approx 233,000 licences issued in Ireland for the possession of firearms, hardly introducing them.

We have stringent controls on guns though, and controls that are agreed on and supported. The Irish attitude to guns is far safer than the American's and I'd be incredibly cautious of doing anything that challenges that status quo.

MadsL

Lyaiera wrote: »

The Washington Times is the equivalent of a right wing tabloid. They refer to no scientific research on the effect of concealed carry permits. The Police Department refused to comment on whether CC permits reduced crime, instead saying that there have been significant improvements in policing. The only "Organisation" that they quote is one that refers to studies without mentioning the names of any of those studies. The organisation they quote, the Crime Prevention Research Centre has nothing to do with crime prevention and more the advancement of carry permits and loosening of gun laws. The Crime Prevention Research Centre is run by a nutter. And the only research he can cite as supporting the claims the Crime Prevention Research Centre make about carry permits is Lott's own discredited research.

Studies you say?

Mark Gius from Quinnipac University, published in Applied Economics Letters, suggests that this is in fact not the case, research shows that in states with more restrictive concealed carry weapons (CCW) laws there is actually an increase in gun related crime.

In conclusion it would appear that limiting people's ability to carry concealed weapons may in fact cause murder rates to rise. Gius does admit that more research is warranted in this area.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140120095556.htm

Nino Brown

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

Maybe give guns to the Gardai 1st to see what effect that has on crime. With proper training of course

It wouldn't have any effect on burglaries because for most of the country the garda response time leaves burglars enough time to tie you up, beat you, rob you, have some dinner, and be well on their way home before the gardai arrive.

Lyaiera

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

Maybe give guns to the Gardai 1st to see what effect that has on crime. With proper training of course

I don't think the Gardaí want to be armed. I think they see a lot of danger in it. And while provisions for policing are not perfect they're certainly not going improve the situation with guns.

MadsL

Lyaiera wrote: »

The Irish attitude to guns is far safer

The drugs trade would beg to differ....

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/jul/19/dublin-drugs-trade-murders

Lyaiera

MadsL wrote: »

The drugs trade would beg to differ....

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/jul/19/dublin-drugs-trade-murders

Are you genuinely saying that the situation regarding guns is as bad in Ireland as it is in America?

MadsL

Lyaiera wrote: »

Are you genuinely saying that the situation regarding guns is as bad in Ireland as it is in America?

I'm saying there is a bit of head in the sand attitude whereby the pretense is that there is no gun crime, or guns in Ireland. As long as it is drug dealers shooting each other there is no gun problem.

shruikan2553

MadsL wrote: »

I'm saying there is a bit of head in the sand attitude whereby the pretense is that there is no gun crime, or guns in Ireland. As long as it is drug dealers shooting each other there is no gun problem.

What's the problem? Gun crime is low and most of what there is is just criminals shooting each other.

Lyaiera

MadsL wrote: »

I'm saying there is a bit of head in the sand attitude whereby the pretense is that there is no gun crime, or guns in Ireland. As long as it is drug dealers shooting each other there is no gun problem.

Ok. You're being disingenuous. I'm not arguing with someone like that.

pablomakaveli

MadsL wrote: »

I'm saying there is a bit of head in the sand attitude whereby the pretense is that there is no gun crime, or guns in Ireland. As long as it is drug dealers shooting each other there is no gun problem.

What are you talking about? People don't have there head in the sand about it. We have the AGS for those type of crimes. Arming people so they can shoot drug dealers won't improve the situation.

4zn76tysfajdxp

MadsL wrote: »

I'm saying there is a bit of head in the sand attitude whereby the pretense is that there is no gun crime, or guns in Ireland. As long as it is drug dealers shooting each other there is no gun problem.

So do you think that more guns should be introduced to the country? If you do, I would counter by saying that the more guns there are in the country the more likely it is that criminals will get their hands on guns illegally and gun crime will, thus, increase.

Turtyturd

Your thread is sh*te OP, stop getting pissy with other posters. It's not their fault.

MadsL

pablomakaveli wrote: »

What are you talking about? People don't have there head in the sand about it. We have the AGS for those type of crimes. Arming people so they can shoot drug dealers won't improve the situation.

Where did I suggest that? What I did suggest is that the possibility that the person you are attacking in the street, or the home your are breaking into has a gun, has a deterrent effect.

As someone pointed out above you cannot get a gun licence for self-defence purposes in Ireland. I think it is time to rethink that.

MadsL

Turtyturd wrote: »

Your thread is sh*te OP, stop getting pissy with other posters. It's not their fault.

Where did I get 'pissy'? The only person I see getting 'pissy' is you.

pablomakaveli

MadsL wrote: »

Where did I suggest that? What I did suggest is that the possibility that the person you are attacking in the street, or the home your are breaking into has a gun, has a deterrent effect.

As someone pointed out above you cannot get a gun licence for self-defence purposes in Ireland. I think it is time to rethink that.

Or they break into the house when the owner isn't there and steal the owners weapon. They now have a new weapon to use that can't be traced to the criminal.

Valetta

MadsL wrote: »

I'm saying there is a bit of head in the sand attitude whereby the pretense is that there is no gun crime, or guns in Ireland. As long as it is drug dealers shooting each other there is no gun problem.

Nobody has said any of that.

You're making things up in an attempt to strengthen what is an extremely weak argument.

The Diabolical Monocle

Christ, not again.

Possible chance something may or may not work in the us ergo it will definitely work here.

seamus

An 86-year-old Illinois man with a concealed carry permit fired his weapon at an armed robbery suspect fleeing police last month, stopping the man in his tracks and allowing the police to make an arrest.

Law enforcement authorities described the man as “a model citizen” who “helped others avoid being victims” at an AT&T store outside Chicago where he witnessed the holdup. The man, whose identity was withheld from the press, prevented others from entering the store during the theft.

This pretty much sums up the American attitude to guns.

American version: "Model citizens apprehends evil thief with his firearm"

Reality version: "Octogenarian discharges a firearm in a public place surrounded by innocent bystanders in an attempt to kill a man for stealing some trinkets".

Seriously, how anyone can think that

a) firing a weapon in a public place is something which should be done lightly, and

b) firing a weapon for any reason other than to save your life or someone else's life is not the action of a dangerous nutjob

But, as I've experienced looking at gun discussions on reddit, the Americans are just completely twisted around on this; Guns are good, people are bad, according to America.

MadsL

Kailani Long Face wrote: »

So do you think that more guns should be introduced to the country? If you do, I would counter by saying that the more guns there are in the country the more likely it is that criminals will get their hands on guns illegally and gun crime will, thus, increase.

Could you quote an example of a country where this has happened in a modern time frame? The Czech Republic is an example where gun ownership laws became extremely liberal following the collapse of communism but gun crime has not significantly exploded.

In 2005, there were 5.317 misdemeanors and 924 criminal offenses committed with firearms[100] compared to 5428 misdemeanors and 836 criminal acts in 2007.[101]

It is generally not common for licensed gun owners to commit violent crimes with their guns, and most of the gun crimes are committed with illegal weapons that are beyond the control of the law.[102] The number of murders committed with legally owned guns reached its peak in 2000, when 20 people were murdered. There were 16 murders committed with legally owned guns in 2003, 17 in 2007 and 2 in 2010. The majority of them are committed during family quarrels, with only a minimum being premeditated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_Czech_Republic

Skylinehead

MadsL wrote: »

I'm saying there is a bit of head in the sand attitude whereby the pretense is that there is no gun crime, or guns in Ireland. As long as it is drug dealers shooting each other there is no gun problem.

Nice dodging of the question. The answer is no, Ireland's gun crime is nowhere near America's problems.

MadsL

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Or they break into the house when the owner isn't there and steal the owners weapon. They now have a new weapon to use that can't be traced to the criminal.

Are you famillar with the current storage requirements under Irish law?

https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/17587/87248.pdf

MadsL

Skylinehead wrote: »

Nice dodging of the question. The answer is no, Ireland's gun crime is nowhere near America's problems.

The answer is not as simple as that, parts of America have virtually no crime at all.

MadsL

seamus wrote: »

American version: "Model citizens apprehends evil thief with his firearm"

Reality version: "Octogenarian discharges a firearm in a public place surrounded by innocent bystanders in an attempt to kill a man for stealing some trinkets".

What is your basis for suggesting that he was "surrounded by innocent bystanders" - I can find no evidence of that at all? Did you just insert it into this "reality version"??

Skylinehead

MadsL wrote: »

The answer is not as simple as that, parts of America have virtually no crime at all.

Why isn't it that simple? America has guns (way more than we do). America has violent crime (way more than we do). Why would we want to follow that model when we're much safer as it is?

4zn76tysfajdxp

MadsL wrote: »

Could you quote an example of a country where this has happened in a modern time frame? The Czech Republic is an example where gun ownership laws became extremely liberal following the collapse of communism but gun crime has not significantly exploded.

Well, no, I don't treat each thread someone else starts like a formal academic debate and start assembling references like some eager post-grad. It's fairly obvious, however, that the more guns there is in a country the more gun crime there will be.

America is always the go-to example in these cases but it's true. Gun crime in the States is committed a vast majority of the time by people who are carrying their weapons illegally, but almost 50% of those guns are acquired by the users from friends and relatives who had bought those guns legally. Relaxed gun laws= illegal gun trafficking = more shootings.

Wake up and smell the gunpowder, pal. It's a no-go.

pablomakaveli

MadsL wrote: »

Are you famillar with the current storage requirements under Irish law?

https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/17587/87248.pdf

That's fine is they comply with that. But not everyone will.

MadsL

Kailani Long Face wrote: »

Well, no, I don't treat each thread someone else starts like a formal academic debate and start assembling references like some eager post-grad. It's fairly obvious, however, that the more guns there is in a country the more gun crime there will be.

America is always the go-to example in these cases but it's true. Gun crime in the States is committed a vast majority of the time by people who are carrying their weapons illegally, but almost 50% of those guns are acquired by the users from friends and relatives who had bought those guns legally. Relaxed gun laws= illegal gun trafficking = more shootings.

Wake up and smell the gunpowder, pal. It's a no-go.

It is not at all obvious " that the more guns there is in a country the more gun crime there will be", in fact I just gave you an example of a country that reversed it's gun policy in the late 20th Century and has not seen more gun crime. What is your basis for feeling this is obvious?

MadsL

pablomakaveli wrote: »

That's fine is they comply with that. But not everyone will.

And given that the Gardai have the power of inspection they will lose their licence.

Nino Brown

Kailani Long Face wrote: »

Well, no, I don't treat each thread someone else starts like a formal academic debate and start assembling references like some eager post-grad. It's fairly obvious, however, that the more guns there is in a country the more gun crime there will be.

America is always the go-to example in these cases but it's true. Gun crime in the States is committed a vast majority of the time by people who are carrying their weapons illegally, but almost 50% of those guns are acquired by the users from friends and relatives who had bought those guns legally. Relaxed gun laws= illegal gun trafficking = more shootings.

Wake up and smell the gunpowder, pal. It's a no-go.

So the crime rate in Switzerland must be through the roof then?.............but, no it's not.

pablomakaveli

MadsL wrote: »

And given that the Gardai have the power of inspection they will lose their licence.

Ya I'm still not convinced. I don't trust the average joe soap to be responsible with a weapon. I'm not going to support making it easier for him to have one.

MadsL

Skylinehead wrote: »

Why isn't it that simple? America has guns (way more than we do). America has violent crime (way more than we do). Why would we want to follow that model when we're much safer as it is?

Or, Switzerland has way more guns than Ireland and much lower crime rate.

interestingly, a recent survey found that the Irish thought they had a high crime rate - scoring even higher than American perceptions of crime. One in 18 Irish people was directly involved in a crime incident in 2013.

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Crime-levels

MadsL

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Ya I'm still not convinced. I don't trust the average joe soap to be responsible with a weapon. I'm not going to support making it easier for him to have one.

Yet the Gardai trust 233,000 joe soaps.

Nino Brown

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Ya I'm still not convinced. I don't trust the average joe soap to be responsible with a weapon. I'm not going to support making it easier for him to have one.

Plenty of average Joe Soaps already have guns in this country, and you almost never hear of a legally held firearm being used in a gun crime in this country. The fact that you don't realize just how many gun owners there are suggests that they are very responsible with them.
I'd be more worried about the average Joe Soap with a car, because they kill far more people.

My name is URL

Switzerland has mandatory conscription, military training for citizens and a standing militia. Using it as an example of why the Irish should have more guns is asinine.