How to drop your crime rate 20% - issue gun permits to residents

pablomakaveli · 25-08-2014 06:02PM

MadsL wrote: »

Where did I suggest that? What I did suggest is that the possibility that the person you are attacking in the street, or the home your are breaking into has a gun, has a deterrent effect.

As someone pointed out above you cannot get a gun licence for self-defence purposes in Ireland. I think it is time to rethink that.

Or they break into the house when the owner isn't there and steal the owners weapon. They now have a new weapon to use that can't be traced to the criminal.

Valetta · 25-08-2014 06:03PM

MadsL wrote: »

I'm saying there is a bit of head in the sand attitude whereby the pretense is that there is no gun crime, or guns in Ireland. As long as it is drug dealers shooting each other there is no gun problem.

Nobody has said any of that.

You're making things up in an attempt to strengthen what is an extremely weak argument.

The Diabolical Monocle · 25-08-2014 06:04PM

Christ, not again.

Possible chance something may or may not work in the us ergo it will definitely work here.

seamus · 25-08-2014 06:05PM

An 86-year-old Illinois man with a concealed carry permit fired his weapon at an armed robbery suspect fleeing police last month, stopping the man in his tracks and allowing the police to make an arrest.

Law enforcement authorities described the man as “a model citizen” who “helped others avoid being victims” at an AT&T store outside Chicago where he witnessed the holdup. The man, whose identity was withheld from the press, prevented others from entering the store during the theft.

This pretty much sums up the American attitude to guns.

American version: "Model citizens apprehends evil thief with his firearm"

Reality version: "Octogenarian discharges a firearm in a public place surrounded by innocent bystanders in an attempt to kill a man for stealing some trinkets".

Seriously, how anyone can think that

a) firing a weapon in a public place is something which should be done lightly, and

b) firing a weapon for any reason other than to save your life or someone else's life is not the action of a dangerous nutjob

But, as I've experienced looking at gun discussions on reddit, the Americans are just completely twisted around on this; Guns are good, people are bad, according to America.

MadsL · 25-08-2014 06:05PM

Kailani Long Face wrote: »

So do you think that more guns should be introduced to the country? If you do, I would counter by saying that the more guns there are in the country the more likely it is that criminals will get their hands on guns illegally and gun crime will, thus, increase.

Could you quote an example of a country where this has happened in a modern time frame? The Czech Republic is an example where gun ownership laws became extremely liberal following the collapse of communism but gun crime has not significantly exploded.

In 2005, there were 5.317 misdemeanors and 924 criminal offenses committed with firearms[100] compared to 5428 misdemeanors and 836 criminal acts in 2007.[101]

It is generally not common for licensed gun owners to commit violent crimes with their guns, and most of the gun crimes are committed with illegal weapons that are beyond the control of the law.[102] The number of murders committed with legally owned guns reached its peak in 2000, when 20 people were murdered. There were 16 murders committed with legally owned guns in 2003, 17 in 2007 and 2 in 2010. The majority of them are committed during family quarrels, with only a minimum being premeditated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_Czech_Republic

Skylinehead · 25-08-2014 06:06PM

MadsL wrote: »

I'm saying there is a bit of head in the sand attitude whereby the pretense is that there is no gun crime, or guns in Ireland. As long as it is drug dealers shooting each other there is no gun problem.

Nice dodging of the question. The answer is no, Ireland's gun crime is nowhere near America's problems.

MadsL · 25-08-2014 06:10PM

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Or they break into the house when the owner isn't there and steal the owners weapon. They now have a new weapon to use that can't be traced to the criminal.

Are you famillar with the current storage requirements under Irish law?

https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/17587/87248.pdf

MadsL · 25-08-2014 06:12PM

Skylinehead wrote: »

Nice dodging of the question. The answer is no, Ireland's gun crime is nowhere near America's problems.

The answer is not as simple as that, parts of America have virtually no crime at all.

MadsL · 25-08-2014 06:14PM

seamus wrote: »

American version: "Model citizens apprehends evil thief with his firearm"

Reality version: "Octogenarian discharges a firearm in a public place surrounded by innocent bystanders in an attempt to kill a man for stealing some trinkets".

What is your basis for suggesting that he was "surrounded by innocent bystanders" - I can find no evidence of that at all? Did you just insert it into this "reality version"??

Skylinehead · 25-08-2014 06:17PM

MadsL wrote: »

The answer is not as simple as that, parts of America have virtually no crime at all.

Why isn't it that simple? America has guns (way more than we do). America has violent crime (way more than we do). Why would we want to follow that model when we're much safer as it is?

4zn76tysfajdxp · 25-08-2014 06:20PM

MadsL wrote: »

Could you quote an example of a country where this has happened in a modern time frame? The Czech Republic is an example where gun ownership laws became extremely liberal following the collapse of communism but gun crime has not significantly exploded.

Well, no, I don't treat each thread someone else starts like a formal academic debate and start assembling references like some eager post-grad. It's fairly obvious, however, that the more guns there is in a country the more gun crime there will be.

America is always the go-to example in these cases but it's true. Gun crime in the States is committed a vast majority of the time by people who are carrying their weapons illegally, but almost 50% of those guns are acquired by the users from friends and relatives who had bought those guns legally. Relaxed gun laws= illegal gun trafficking = more shootings.

Wake up and smell the gunpowder, pal. It's a no-go.

pablomakaveli · 25-08-2014 06:25PM

MadsL wrote: »

Are you famillar with the current storage requirements under Irish law?

https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/17587/87248.pdf

That's fine is they comply with that. But not everyone will.

MadsL · 25-08-2014 06:26PM

Kailani Long Face wrote: »

Well, no, I don't treat each thread someone else starts like a formal academic debate and start assembling references like some eager post-grad. It's fairly obvious, however, that the more guns there is in a country the more gun crime there will be.

America is always the go-to example in these cases but it's true. Gun crime in the States is committed a vast majority of the time by people who are carrying their weapons illegally, but almost 50% of those guns are acquired by the users from friends and relatives who had bought those guns legally. Relaxed gun laws= illegal gun trafficking = more shootings.

Wake up and smell the gunpowder, pal. It's a no-go.

It is not at all obvious " that the more guns there is in a country the more gun crime there will be", in fact I just gave you an example of a country that reversed it's gun policy in the late 20th Century and has not seen more gun crime. What is your basis for feeling this is obvious?

MadsL · 25-08-2014 06:27PM

pablomakaveli wrote: »

That's fine is they comply with that. But not everyone will.

And given that the Gardai have the power of inspection they will lose their licence.

Nino Brown · 25-08-2014 06:29PM

Kailani Long Face wrote: »

Well, no, I don't treat each thread someone else starts like a formal academic debate and start assembling references like some eager post-grad. It's fairly obvious, however, that the more guns there is in a country the more gun crime there will be.

America is always the go-to example in these cases but it's true. Gun crime in the States is committed a vast majority of the time by people who are carrying their weapons illegally, but almost 50% of those guns are acquired by the users from friends and relatives who had bought those guns legally. Relaxed gun laws= illegal gun trafficking = more shootings.

Wake up and smell the gunpowder, pal. It's a no-go.

So the crime rate in Switzerland must be through the roof then?.............but, no it's not.

pablomakaveli · 25-08-2014 06:31PM

MadsL wrote: »

And given that the Gardai have the power of inspection they will lose their licence.

Ya I'm still not convinced. I don't trust the average joe soap to be responsible with a weapon. I'm not going to support making it easier for him to have one.

MadsL · 25-08-2014 06:31PM

Skylinehead wrote: »

Why isn't it that simple? America has guns (way more than we do). America has violent crime (way more than we do). Why would we want to follow that model when we're much safer as it is?

Or, Switzerland has way more guns than Ireland and much lower crime rate.

interestingly, a recent survey found that the Irish thought they had a high crime rate - scoring even higher than American perceptions of crime. One in 18 Irish people was directly involved in a crime incident in 2013.

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Crime-levels

MadsL · 25-08-2014 06:32PM

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Ya I'm still not convinced. I don't trust the average joe soap to be responsible with a weapon. I'm not going to support making it easier for him to have one.

Yet the Gardai trust 233,000 joe soaps.

Nino Brown · 25-08-2014 06:34PM

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Ya I'm still not convinced. I don't trust the average joe soap to be responsible with a weapon. I'm not going to support making it easier for him to have one.

Plenty of average Joe Soaps already have guns in this country, and you almost never hear of a legally held firearm being used in a gun crime in this country. The fact that you don't realize just how many gun owners there are suggests that they are very responsible with them.
I'd be more worried about the average Joe Soap with a car, because they kill far more people.

My name is URL · 25-08-2014 06:35PM

Switzerland has mandatory conscription, military training for citizens and a standing militia. Using it as an example of why the Irish should have more guns is asinine.

pablomakaveli · 25-08-2014 06:36PM

MadsL wrote: »

Yet the Gardai trust 233,000 joe soaps.

That's what? Approx 5% of the population who had to go through a strict process to get them.

You're advocating relaxing those laws.

Nino Brown · 25-08-2014 06:37PM

My name is URL wrote: »

Switzerland has mandatory conscription, military training for citizens and a standing militia. Using it as an example of why the Irish should have more guns is asinine.

Okay, now we're getting somewhere, so you agree the number of guns is irrelevant?, it's how well people are trained to use them that's the issue?

MadsL · 25-08-2014 06:39PM

pablomakaveli wrote: »

That's what? Approx 5% of the population who had to go through a strict process to get them.

You're advocating relaxing those laws.

What is the problem you are aiming at preventing exactly when the level of crime with legally held firearms in Ireland is negligible?

The Diabolical Monocle · 25-08-2014 06:39PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vV8SMwPRnVc

Nino Brown · 25-08-2014 06:40PM

pablomakaveli wrote: »

That's what? Approx 5% of the population who had to go through a strict process to get them.

You're advocating relaxing those laws.

I'm not sure anybody is recommending guns are made any easier to get, I would just be for self defense being a valid reason to acquire one.

In fact I would not oppose making them harder to get if self defense was the reason, possibly even requiring a mental evaluation

pablomakaveli · 25-08-2014 06:44PM

MadsL wrote: »

What is the problem you are aiming at preventing exactly when the level of crime with legally held firearms in Ireland is negligible?

The majority of them are sporting shotguns and hunting rifles. Weapons not very useful for crime.

Why do we need to change the laws if you say yourself our crime levels are negligible?

MadsL · 25-08-2014 06:45PM

pablomakaveli wrote: »

The majority of them are sporting shotguns and hunting rifles. Weapons not very useful for crime.

Why do we need to change the laws if you say yourself our crime levels are negligible?

I didn't say crime levels are negligible, I said gun crime with legally held firearms was negligible..

Nino Brown · 25-08-2014 06:46PM

pablomakaveli wrote: »

The majority of them are sporting shotguns and hunting rifles. Weapons not very useful for crime.

Why do we need to change the laws if you say yourself our crime levels are negligible?

So increasing the number wouldn't increase the crime rate then would it? But shotguns are very useful for home defense.

Tail Docker · 25-08-2014 06:47PM

Could ye all shet yer traps with the whinin, I wants me a .44 in ma pockit. I'm all good with this Mr Mad, aint no nobody gonna mess with me an ma peestol. Ahl pop a cap in they a55. God Bless Murcareland.

My name is URL · 25-08-2014 06:48PM

Nino Brown wrote: »

Okay, now we're getting somewhere, so you agree the number of guns is irrelevant?, it's how well people are trained to use them that's the issue?

Do you think the government of Ireland are going to fork out on paying for weapons training for its citizens? Of course training is important for anyone that owns or handles a weapon, and if the number of guns in circulation is irrelevant then I'm not sure why you brought it up in reply to me.

In 2010, out of 53 homicides in Switzerland, 40 involved guns. If you think that easier legal access to guns is not in any way related to that then you're either deluded or just choosing to be ignorant.

How to drop your crime rate 20% - issue gun permits to residents

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