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Scrap the dole!

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Comments

  • #182
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Hypothesis: There are a significant percentage of people in the country that don't want work.

    Refute: During the Celtic Tiger we had close to full employment.

    But there were people who couldn't wait to turn 18 and head down to the dole office as soon as they were old enough, that was in the good times too. What were they getting back then? 210 euro or something?

    About time they started drug testing for welfare. Don't pass the test? Don't get the cash. Anti social behaviour? Stop the money.


  • #183
    Tarzana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭Tarzana


    Gannicus wrote: »
    Exactly that and the fact that where and what it can be spent on is controlled no luxuries like sky+ or booze or smokes.

    And if you read my previous posts I have a theory that said stigmatism will socially coerce people into working for a living instead.

    That is chilling. Coerce? Shudder.

    Would you be happy for your PhD-holding, 3 years plus unemployed friend to have to suffer such stigmatisation and be prevented from buying what you see as luxuries?


  • #184
    Tarzana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭Tarzana


    LexieOnRale wrote: »
    But there were people who couldn't wait to turn 18 and head down to the dole office as soon as they were old enough, that was in the good times too. What were they getting back then? 210 euro or something?

    There is always going to exist people like that. What the boom years showed us is that they are very much in the minority.


  • #185
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Hypothesis: There are a significant percentage of people in the country that don't want work.

    Refute: During the Celtic Tiger we had close to full employment.

    The definition of full employment excludes those who don't want to work...


  • #186
    dark crystal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,962 ✭✭✭✭dark crystal


    LexieOnRale wrote: »
    It's funny how people on the dole long term seem to be better off than if they were working. I know a couple on the dole, I've known him since I was a young child and I know her since school, he's had one job for a few months since I've known him, she's had no job since leaving school. They've medical cards, they've sky, they've broadband, they're going to some part of Spain for a week next month. They get rent allowance.

    His brother and his brothers girlfriend aren't much better. She gets back to education allowance, medical cards, rent allowance, she has a part time job that she earns decent commission on, he's on the dole. They've the best of everything, sky tv broadband new iPhones a nice holiday every year.

    What I'd like to know is why those people are getting the same amount of money as someone who's worked their whole life, paid their prsi contributions and have a genuine interest in getting another job.

    Also, there's some cul camp that was running this summer. 70 euro per child but if you've a medical card, they're free. It's so stupid.

    Any time I have to go to the dr, I have to ring 3/4 days in advance to get an appointment. I'm not sure how you're supposed to foresee if you're sick, but when I do eventually get an appointment, and I'm sat in the waiting room, it's always the same people, the same faces.

    If I could find a doctors surgery that's taking on new patients and didn't accept people with medical cards, I'd move doctors.

    Yeah, you wouldn't want to catch nasty dole disease off 'em. *Sniff*

    Here's a suggestion, why don't you take a leaf out of your mates book and sign on yourself. Experience their luxurious existence for a while and then report back as to how much better off you really are. Might even make you less prone to whinging.


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  • #187
    TGJD
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 432 ✭✭TGJD


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Society advances through production and innovation of new technologies. It's the nature of humans to constantly build and develop. This happens slower when large swathes of the population are being disincentivised from working.

    The only way to turn that around is to end the entitlement culture. If a person does not contribute to society they should not benefit from it. Even Marx famous said "to each according to his contribution".


    I don't hate then. I just don't give a damn and don't want to see my money being used to support them. Money that I could be saving to support myself should I lose my job.

    Jesus. You can't seriously be that much of a c unt in real life surely? You sound like you would gladly piss on the homeless as you pass.


  • #188
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    LexieOnRale wrote: »
    But there were people who couldn't wait to turn 18 and head down to the dole office as soon as they were old enough, that was in the good times too. What were they getting back then? 210 euro or something?

    About time they started drug testing for welfare. Don't pass the test? Don't get the cash. Anti social behaviour? Stop the money.

    Evidence for the above please?


  • #189
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    The definition of full employment excludes those who don't want to work...

    The word "want" is the word that lets you down. Official statistics don't take into consideration people's aspirations.


  • #190
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    dark crystal wrote: »
    Yeah, you wouldn't want to catch nasty dole disease off 'em. *Sniff*

    Here's a suggestion, why don't you take a leaf out of your mates book and sign on yourself. Experience their luxurious existence for a while and then report back as to how much better off you really are. Might even make you less prone to whinging.

    Surprisingly catty! If you put that effort into finding a job maybe you wouldn't be so touchy


  • #191
    mphalo1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 186 ✭✭mphalo1


    the reason half the country have left to work abroad is because they are on the dole and can't sit around waiting for the economy to recover, the other half dont want to go this is their home and are entitled to stay its their land, let's not forget here the banks and corrupt governments brought this country down 99% of the people on the dole at present helped build it up during the Celtic tiger , just because you have managed to find or keep your job now doesn't mean your not ever going to lose it and when you do where will we see you standing inline at the dole hall or on the docks leaving (PS good luck with that when no one will buy your possessions and you have kids and a house in negative equity :) so you retrain with a class full of people doing the same thing and apply for the same job as hundred other people. people are not better off on the dole they have just got used to living tightly within their means with sod all disposable income and no way to save without serious sacrifices. the country will eventually recover and everyone will get job offers again hopefully soon and jealous assholes like you can no longer look down your nose at them anymore even tho the dole Q is full of highly trained people that could look down their nose at you!! its important to be nice to people on your way up as you might meet them on the way down , is my motto


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  • #192
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    The word "want" is the word that lets you down. Official statistics don't take into consideration people's aspirations.
    They don't need to. "Full employment" excludes long term unemployed. As well you know.

    It's daft to say most people want to work as during the celtic tiger we neared full unemployment when full unemployment wouldn't include those who want to work anyway.


  • #193
    Dayum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 687 ✭✭✭Dayum


    mphalo1 wrote: »
    the reason half the country have left to work abroad is because they are on the dole and can't sit around waiting for the economy to recover, the other half dont want to go this is their home and are entitled to stay its their land, let's not forget here the banks and corrupt governments brought this country down 99% of the people on the dole at present helped build it up during the Celtic tiger , just because you have managed to find or keep your job now doesn't mean your not ever going to lose it and when you do where will we see you standing inline at the dole hall or on the docks leaving (PS good luck with that when no one will buy your possessions and you have kids and a house in negative equity :) so you retrain with a class full of people doing the same thing and apply for the same job as hundred other people. people are not better off on the dole they have just got used to living tightly within their means with sod all disposable income and no way to save without serious sacrifices. the country will eventually recover and everyone will get job offers again hopefully soon and jealous assholes like you can no longer look down your nose at them anymore even tho the dole Q is full of highly trained people that could look down their nose at you!! its important to be nice to people on your way up as you might meet them on the way down , is my motto

    You and others speak of the Celtic Tiger like it was a good thing - it wasn't.

    The recession is a good thing.

    The market is saying to us "lol, you can never manipulate me. Let's go back to reality".

    I never want to see another Celtic Tiger. It's not reality.


  • #194
    Tarzana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭Tarzana


    LexieOnRale wrote: »
    Surprisingly catty! If you put that effort into finding a job maybe you wouldn't be so touchy

    Your own post here is catty. :D As are most of your posts on this thread. Glass houses, stones, etc.


  • #195
    dark crystal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,962 ✭✭✭✭dark crystal


    LexieOnRale wrote: »
    Surprisingly catty! If you put that effort into finding a job maybe you wouldn't be so touchy

    I already have one. Thankfully it hasn't turned me into a begrudging whinger too up myself to sit in a doctor's waiting room with people who may or may not have a medical card.

    Who actually says stuff like that anyway? That's really catty.


  • #196
    P_1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    Is there really such a need for us all to be sniping at one another? Life's far too short for such petty bullshit.


  • #197
    anncoates
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,925 ✭✭✭✭anncoates


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    The definition of full employment excludes those who don't want to work...

    Er it's based on unemployment rates not the amount of people that have jobs or indeed a metric based on people's attitude to work.

    I think during the Celtic tiger, unemployment went as low as 3 or 4 percent IIRC.


  • #198
    mphalo1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 186 ✭✭mphalo1


    its either a feast or a famine :)


  • #199
    anncoates
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,925 ✭✭✭✭anncoates


    LexieOnRale wrote: »
    Surprisingly catty! If you put that effort into finding a job maybe you wouldn't be so touchy

    Wow.


  • #200
    RayM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,973 ✭✭✭RayM


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    They don't need to. "Full employment" excludes long term unemployed. As well you know.

    And it excludes people who are quite literally 'between jobs'. Even during the Celtic Tiger years, people didn't always automatically walk from one job straight into another, and could still find themselves briefly on the dole.
    LexieOnRale wrote:
    But there were people who couldn't wait to turn 18 and head down to the dole office as soon as they were old enough, that was in the good times too. What were they getting back then? 210 euro or something?

    About time they started drug testing for welfare. Don't pass the test? Don't get the cash. Anti social behaviour? Stop the money.

    If you didn't get your knickers in a knot about what other people are getting, you'd probably be a much happier (and maybe even nicer) person.


  • #201
    foxtrot101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 907 ✭✭✭foxtrot101


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    The definition of full employment excludes those who don't want to work...

    The long term unemployment rate during the boom was just over 1%, or around 28,000 people.


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  • #202
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,622 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    The definition of full employment excludes those who don't want to work...

    If you're on the dole, you're counted as wanting to work, so you would be included in any measure of full employment.

    If someone chooses not to work and not claim the dole, they're not relevant to this discussion.


  • #203
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Diego Simeone wrote: »
    If you're on the dole, you're counted as wanting to work, so you would be included in any measure of full employment.

    If someone chooses not to work and not claim the dole, they're not relevant to this discussion.

    That's not the case. Long term unemployed people on the dole are not included in the term full employment.

    They're very relevant to the discussion we need a way to coerce these people to work.


  • #204
    Tarzana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭Tarzana


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    They don't need to. "Full employment" excludes long term unemployed. As well you know.

    It's easy to work out long-term unemployed using the figures given.

    Total population - cohort used for study = long-term unemployed. My guess is that the figure very low for the boom years, and don't forget that long term figure would also inlcude who genuinely can't work due to different reasons.


  • #205
    Gannicus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,736 ✭✭✭Gannicus


    Tarzana wrote: »
    That is chilling. Coerce? Shudder.

    Would you be happy for your PhD-holding, 3 years plus unemployed friend to have to suffer such stigmatisation and be prevented from buying what you see as luxuries?

    I have had this discussion with him before and I have said that I think it is discgraceful that people can pay for sky+ or go the pub or smoke 20 smokes a day on €188 a week (may or may not include rent allowance depending on circumstance). He thinks its a laughable result but has said "I'm gonna do it until they stop me from affording it"


  • #206
    Tarzana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭Tarzana


    Gannicus wrote: »
    I have had this discussion with him before and I have said that I think it is discgraceful that people can pay for sky+ or go the pub or smoke 20 smokes a day on €188 a week (may or may not include rent allowance depending on circumstance). He thinks its a laughable result but has said "I'm gonna do it until they stop me from affording it"

    Yup, lets make being long term unemployed (LTU) more depressing.

    Friend: Yo, LTU, haven't seem you out in a long, long time, it's Alphonsus's birthday next week, we're going for dinner. You should come!

    LTU: Sorry, if I try to use my debut card of shame on booze or meals out, it bursts into flames. *goes home to stare at four walls*

    How far would this banning things stretch? What is deemed frivolous? Books, music, you know, things that aid the soul? (Yes, I know there are libraries but they tend to be very limited)


  • #207
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Tarzana wrote: »
    Yup, lets make being long term unemployed (LTU) more depressing.

    Friend: Yo, LTU, haven't seem you out in a long, long time, it's Alphonsus's birthday next week, we're going for dinner. You should come!

    LTU: Sorry, if I try to use my debut card of shame on booze or meals out, it bursts into flames. *goes home to stare at four walls*

    How far would this banning things stretch? What is deemed frivolous? Books, music, you know, things that aid the soul?

    Does LTU have a brush in his house? If so why not go around to all of his neighbours and ask them if he can clean their yard for a fiver? He could earn enough money to go to Alphonsus's birthday party.


  • #208
    Tarzana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭Tarzana


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Does LTU have a brush in his house? If so why not go around to all of his neighbours and ask them if he can clean their yard for a fiver? He could earn enough money to go to Alphonsus's birthday party.

    Well hey, who knows, maybe the debut card of shame won't allow him to buy that?

    Also, sorry, can't take you seriously at all ever sense you expressed delight in the Jobbridge thread at the idea that teachers could all be on Jobbridge at a cost each to the taxpayer of 5.4k per annum instead of their normal salary.


  • #209
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Tarzana wrote: »
    Well hey, who knows, maybe the debut card of shame won't allow him to buy that?

    Then borrow one.


  • #210
    Gannicus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,736 ✭✭✭Gannicus


    Tarzana wrote: »
    Yup, lets make being long term unemployed (LTU) more depressing.

    Friend: Yo, LTU, haven't seem you out in a long, long time, it's Alphonsus's birthday next week, we're going for dinner. You should come!

    LTU: Sorry, if I try to use my debut card of shame on booze or meals out, it bursts into flames. *goes home to stare at four walls*

    How far would this banning things stretch? What is deemed frivolous? Books, music, you know, things that aid the soul? (Yes, I know there are libraries but they tend to be very limited)

    They are limited to ESSENTIALS. Food, clothes paying the ESB & Heating bills school books for kids.

    I left out internet access as the UN in their "infinite wisdom", deemed Wi-Fi as a basic human right.


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  • #211
    Calina
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Does LTU have a brush in his house? If so why not go around to all of his neighbours and ask them if he can clean their yard for a fiver? He could earn enough money to go to Alphonsus's birthday party.

    You're obsessed with cleaning neighbour's yards for a fiver with a brush.


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