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Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

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Comments

  • #4472
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 95,515 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Irish Praetorian wrote: »
    We moved on from a lot of this but just to take up a few of your points:

    I don't believe Gaza has shrunk much since 1948, as a matter I believe some Israeli settlements were ripped out tooth and nail, what exactly makes you think t othe contrary?
    Here's the thing, you know about the exclusion zones, so I don't believe you can honestly make that claim

    But to remind the few people on this thread who don't know how big they are

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11030512
    Since late 2008, Palestinians had been totally or partially prevented from accessing land located up to 1.5km (0.9 miles) from the border and the Mediterranean Sea beyond 5.5km (3 nautical miles) from Gaza's shore, the report said.

    Overall, it was estimated by the UN that access to 17% of the total land mass of the Gaza Strip and 35% of its agricultural land was restricted.

    Meanwhile, fishermen were totally prevented from accessing 85% of the maritime areas they were entitled to access according to the 1993 Oslo Accords.
    map http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/48798000/jpg/_48798162_gaza_strip3_map466.jpg


    Except it's no longer 17%. The existing no-go zone is 44% of Gaza
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28458377
    The UN's Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) says a 1.9 mile (3km) wide strip, encompassing 44% of Gaza, has been designated as a no-go zone by the Israeli military.

    map http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76483000/gif/_76483328_gaza_shejaiya_23_07_14_624map.gif


  • #4473
    Ignorant etc.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 227 ✭✭Ignorant etc.


    Fiolina wrote: »
    Apt username

    Ah, a pro-Palestinian doing what a pro-Palestinian does best, resorting to insults.


  • #4474
    Ignorant etc.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 227 ✭✭Ignorant etc.


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Apt username

    Parrot in here or something?


  • #4475
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Ignorant etc. wrote: »
    Ah, a pro-Palestinian doing what a pro-Palestinian does best, resorting to insults.


    Don't suppose you want to make a coherent argument, by any chance?


  • #4476
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    Irish Praetorian wrote: »
    I'm still not allowed to post links however if you go to the Summer Rains link you posted earlier, at the bottom you will find a link 'Palestinian Rocket Attacks on Israel' itemising the breakdown in rocket and mortar attacks on Israel since 2001, the totals come to 12,383 rocket attacks, 4,890 mortar attacks for a total 17,228 attacks - of these roughly 1700 (or 10%) occurred during the 2001 - 2005 period between the start of rocket attacks and the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza.

    Back to this point.

    This is a report by a Palestinian reporter from Gaza who I have being following,referring to the most recent ceasefire:

    "During the past week's truces, Israel violated the ceasefire 3 times (shelling on fishermen and on Palestinian homes eastern khanyounis) however the Palestinian resistance kept calm.
    Today, despite the fact that no resistance group claimed responsibility over the first 3 rockets, Israel went crazy attacking Gaza as this is what they have been waiting for !
    Al-Ray - Photo / Ali Aldaif, 2 year old, first victim of the Israeli "self defense" escalation on Gaza today. He got killed with his mother, when an Israeli F16 missile hit their home without warning - Noor Harazeen in Gaza"

    Is her report to be discredited on the basis that she is Palestinian and not well funded and the Israeli version of events to be accepted on some grounds that you can perhaps explain.


    Here then is a report I found which reveals a testimony coherent with that of the human rights organisations previously mentioned. So there is a number of sources which dispute the consistent claim disseminated by the mainstream media whose source is the Israeli government. Why would it be reasonable to accept that as being legitimate and dismiss all other sources who pour doubt on the familiar narrative?

    http://antiwar.com/blog/2014/02/06/the-truth-about-cease-fire-violations-between-israel-and-gaza/


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  • #4477
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 95,515 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    evo2000 wrote: »
    The fact that you have to compare the IDF to some of the most brutal ruthless forces on the planet to make it look some what civil says it all really.
    Back on the 4/8/14 I showed that what was happening in Gaza was as deadly as London at the height of The Blitz.

    It's not hard to find Londoners who still HATE the Germans over that. You also have to remember that this isn't the first or second time that Gaza has seen such death tolls. It's not a roadmap to peace.


    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91576668&postcount=2751
    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    So far the 27 days of Operation Protective Edge have resulted in 1,750, deaths.

    In 1940 the population of London was about 4.5 times the population of the Gaza Strip.

    Scale up Gaza to London over 57 days would give you 57/27*4.5*1,750 = 16,625 deaths. Overall 20,000 died in London during the whole of the Blitz but that was over a period of 267 days (almost 37 weeks), and 71 bombing raids. ( 16625*71/57 =20700 if you want to work back )

    There is an argument that all the bombs fell on the centre of London but
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-20637222 shows that pretty much everywhere inside the M25 was hit.



    I can't tell you how the child death rate compares, but I can tell you the overall death rate per day is the same as the worst of the Luftwaffe attacks on London during the Blitz , the 57 days starting on 7th Sept 1940 with air raids every night.


  • #4478
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 95,515 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Irish Praetorian wrote: »
    I deal with this above but I believe 'only 70' attacks is still not quite the same as 'very few', nor is it an amount that any state would be expected to tolerate without response.
    .
    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    I will tell you exactly what a nation did.

    Israel had 18 months without attacks until Gaza was attacked without just cause.

    In response Israel have committed over 1,800 extra judicial killings. A Palestinian had the same daily risk of being killed as a Londoner during the worst two months of The Blitz.

    Let me repeat that again. The IDF's measured response is as deadly as the worst the Luftwaffe did to London during WWII.


    Meanwhile another nation had hundreds of civilians killed. They had a member of parliament killed , two different prime ministers were very nearly assassinated, a member of the Royal Family was. A far cry from the current conflict where there was only one Jewish civilian casualty and he put himself in harms way by going to a border crossing.

    But unlike Israel the UK didn't launch indiscriminate attacks on civilians.

    I can't say this often enough , when you try to defend Israel's behaviour by asking hypothetical questions about what other countries would do then the answer is usually "It's not hypothetical, this is what they did, and compared to them you are mass murderers"


  • #4479
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    http://sm4good.com/2013/03/29/deal-negative-comments-trolls/

    "Trolls and negative commenters require different strategies because they are completely different and have different interest. Most people who leave negative comments will have a legitimate grievance – at least in their minds. Whether you agree with them or not is not the point, they have a point of view and they want to be heard.
    So called “trolls” on the other hand don’t care about what they write, they just want to call mayhem. The urban dictionary defines a troll as “one who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.”


  • #4480
    Irish Praetorian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Irish Praetorian


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    I will tell you exactly what a nation did.

    Israel had 18 months without attacks until Gaza was attacked without just cause.

    Which 18 months were these? Because they certainly weren't the 18 months prior to this July which saw 275 attacks on Israel of varying type.
    In response Israel have committed over 1,800 extra judicial killings. A Palestinian had the same daily risk of being killed as a Londoner during the worst two months of The Blitz.

    Let me repeat that again. The IDF's measured response is as deadly as the worst the Luftwaffe did to London during WWII.

    Meanwhile another nation had hundreds of civilians killed. They had a member of parliament killed , two different prime ministers were very nearly assassinated, a member of the Royal Family was. A far cry from the current conflict where there was only one Jewish civilian casualty and he put himself in harms way by going to a border crossing.

    But unlike Israel the UK didn't launch indiscriminate attacks on civilians.

    I can't say this often enough , when you try to defend Israel's behaviour by asking hypothetical questions about what other countries would do then the answer is usually "It's not hypothetical, this is what they did, and compared to them you are mass murderers"

    Actually, the UK together with most of the western allies, did launch indiscriminate attacks on civilians, as bombing proved pretty quickly ineffective when targeting individual factories, so entire city districts were targeted instead. The usual response to allies not bombing indiscriminately is the firebombings of Dresden and Tokyo as well as the two nuclear attacks on Japan. Its a damn good thing the allies won, because notwithstanding the evils of Nazism, quite a few might have ended up on trial had they not. This is of course to say nothing of the actions of the Soviet Union during the second world war, which included ethnic cleansing to the sum of several million, mass rapes and a host of other atrocities, also unpunished.


  • #4481
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    Ignorant etc. wrote: »
    Ah, a pro-Palestinian doing what a pro-Palestinian does best, resorting to insults.

    Your username is 'Ignorant' and your post was perceived as ignorant and so your attention was drawn to the fact that you were living up to your nomenclature so it's hardly an insult but rather a compliment that you are playing your self allotted role to perfection.


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  • #4482
    SeaBreezes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,555 ✭✭✭SeaBreezes


    Irish Praetorian wrote: »
    Generally speaking I would understand it as non-state actors engaging in acts of mass destruction or organized violence to achieve political aims.

    By this theory, Hamas, as 'state actors' in Palestine, are not terrorists?


  • #4483
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    Tuisceanch wrote: »
    Back to this point.

    This is a report by a Palestinian reporter from Gaza who I have being following,referring to the most recent ceasefire:

    "During the past week's truces, Israel violated the ceasefire 3 times (shelling on fishermen and on Palestinian homes eastern khanyounis) however the Palestinian resistance kept calm.
    Today, despite the fact that no resistance group claimed responsibility over the first 3 rockets, Israel went crazy attacking Gaza as this is what they have been waiting for !
    Al-Ray - Photo / Ali Aldaif, 2 year old, first victim of the Israeli "self defense" escalation on Gaza today. He got killed with his mother, when an Israeli F16 missile hit their home without warning - Noor Harazeen in Gaza"

    Is her report to be discredited on the basis that she is Palestinian and not well funded and the Israeli version of events to be accepted on some grounds that you can perhaps explain.


    Here then is a report I found which reveals a testimony coherent with that of the human rights organisations previously mentioned. So there is a number of sources which dispute the consistent claim disseminated by the mainstream media whose source is the Israeli government. Why would it be reasonable to accept that as being legitimate and dismiss all other sources who pour doubt on the familiar narrative?

    http://antiwar.com/blog/2014/02/06/the-truth-about-cease-fire-violations-between-israel-and-gaza/



    Since this issue of who is defending and who is attacking is a crucial point in this debate, and one which the above poster was disinclined to believe that it was Israel more than groups within Gaza who were responsible for initiating the violence, I have added a further source which makes for interesting reading on this subject and also provides an insight into how this narrative is spun to the media. There are striking similarities with this story and the current situation which should be obvious. From all these sources it is evident that,at the very least,the mainstream media should be challenging the veracity of the Israeli narrative rather than just copying and pasting it into the broadsheets and regurgitating it verbatim on the news.

    http://unknownunbeliever.wordpress.com/2012/01/08/myths-about-gaza-iv/


  • #4484
    WakeUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,823 ✭✭✭WakeUp


    Irish Praetorian wrote: »
    And how many British government officials or British army officers have we brought to justice for outrages in the North? Do you think they didn't happen? Do we not have a case in the ICC? The reality is that such pursuits were put aside by both sides in exchange for peace and I suspect that is the best course of action in pursuing a peace between Israel and Palestine too.

    If youre going to bring realpolitik into the discussion then lets be realistic shall we. I would posit that the current Israeli government, notwithstanding your suspicions, do not desire a genuine peace with the Palestinians on anything other than their terms. that wont work not now not ever. you wont make peace like that and there is no room for peace on such terms. for me this is the reality of this particular situation. comparing this conflict with the conflict in the north and using that as a premise as to why Israel shouldnt be held accountable for possible war crimes doesnt work for me. Im afraid Im not having that. If Israel committed war crimes they must be held to account this time. anything less in my opinion is unacceptable.

    You might not have heard of the ‘Hannibal Protocol’, but it's behind one of Israel's worst atrocities yet
    What's more, the Israeli colonel behind it all seems to think it was divine:

    While Israel and Hamas are still looking for ways to end their Gaza war, the UN Human Rights Council has appointed a three-member panel to investigate allegations that humanitarian law was violated in the Gaza Strip during the fighting, in a manner that could amount to war crimes.
    Close to 2,000 Palestinians have so far been killed in Gaza, a majority of them civilians, while the Israelis have lost 64 soldiers and three civilians. On past precedent, Israel is highly unlikely to co-operate with any UN investigation.

    The UN team, no doubt, will look into IDF attacks on schools and hospitals during the Gaza war, but I strongly believe that their first priority, and top on their list of incidents-to-be-investigated should be the events that took place in Rafah in the southern Gaza Strip on Friday, August 1. There are three words that define this day: "The Hannibal Protocol".

    The colonel who orchestrated the assault on Rafah was Ofer Winter, the commander of the Givati Brigade. A religious settler, on the eve of the Gaza war he dispatched a letter to his troops, laden with biblical references, which perhaps explains the ferocity with which they attacked Rafah.

    What Colonel Winter called on his troops to do was, effectively, to conduct a religious war on Gaza. Here are some quotes from his letter:

    "History has chosen us to be the sharp edge of the bayonet of fighting the terrorist enemy from Gaza which curses, defames and abuses the God of Israel’s battles … We will… wipe out the enemy… Using all means at our disposal and with all required force… I turn my eyes to the sky and call with you ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.’ God, the Lord of Israel, make our path successful, as we are about to fight for Your People, Israel, against an enemy who defames your name."

    Colonel Winter managed to wipe out many Palestinians — but alas, they were non-combatant civilians. Therefore his actions, as well as those working with him, must be thoroughly investigated by the UN to establish whether it amounted to war crimes. We cannot allow The Hannibal Protocol to be used in such a way again.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/you-might-not-have-heard-of-the-hannibal-protocol-but-its-behind-one-of-israels-worst-atrocities-yet-9678780.html


  • #4485
    Irish Praetorian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Irish Praetorian


    Tuisceanch wrote: »
    Since this issue of who is defending and who is attacking is a crucial point in this debate, and one which the above poster was disinclined to believe that it was Israel more than groups within Gaza who were responsible for initiating the violence, I have added a further source which makes for interesting reading on this subject and also provides an insight into how this narrative is spun to the media. There are striking similarities with this story and the current situation which should be obvious. From all these sources it is evident that,at the very least,the mainstream media should be challenging the veracity of the Israeli narrative rather than just copying and pasting it into the broadsheets and regurgitating it verbatim on the news.

    I can't say much for the article you've posted here but the one which preceded it regarding the statistical breakdown of Israel attacks, Palestinian Rocket Launches and casualty totals is actually something I'm very intrigued by. Now clearly its not the whole story given political developments which are not accounted for, but this is probably the closest I've ever had to something which directly rubbishes the notion of Israeli defensive fire - I must thank you for the find.


  • #4486
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    Irish Praetorian wrote: »
    I can't say much for the article you've posted here but the one which preceded it regarding the statistical breakdown of Israel attacks, Palestinian Rocket Launches and casualty totals is actually something I'm very intrigued by. Now clearly its not the whole story given political developments which are not accounted for, but this is probably the closest I've ever had to something which directly rubbishes the notion of Israeli defensive fire - I must thank you for the find.

    Yes it is interesting but unfortunately I can't find the data from the UN on which it was based as the link is now broken. The other link is actually quite interesting as it cites a number of sources from Haaret'z,Jerusalem Post etc so some effort was made to present the facts objectively and in a balanced manner.


  • #4487
    Son Of A Vidic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭Son Of A Vidic


    Irish Praetorian wrote: »
    Right so you don't define what Zionism is, you're just sure its responsible for all the the evils in the area right now, what a useful target.
    When was I expected to define anything? Indeed, I have already defined what Zionism is to several blinkered apologist in this thread. But since you consistently appear incapable of reading through the thread. Here's a tips, just search through my posts and you'll find the definitions you seek. But hey I'm a nice person, here's a brief guide for you.

    Zionism is similar to Nazism, in that they are both hateful filled, supremacist ideologies which worship the State above all else. Zionists worship The State of Israel, not Judaism. The State is God, hail to Greater Israel, we must have our land at all costs. But such fanatics will subvert a religion and use it for their own political/military needs. When it suits, Zionists will claim their State is a God given right. Yes they are less sophisticated, but the likes of ISIS also claim certain God given rights. Rights which they obtained through a deliberate misinterpretation of religion.

    Similar to how the Nazis claimed their Aryan greatness entitled them to rule over other inferior races. And how they ethnically cleansed for Lebensraum. The Zionists also ethnically cleansed for their Greater Israel. Both ideologies also regard the army and its military might, as a central tenet to their State. While most civilised democracies go to great lengths to separate the army from the State and political life. In Israel you'll not go far in political life, if you haven't covered yourself in military 'glory'. So if you've unfortunately invoked the ire of the army, your career is as good as dead.

    The Nazi’s used fear, the threat of invasion and a need to expand as a justification for a rapid militarisation of society. Successive Zionist regimes use a similar formulaic approach, to justify the continuing militarisation of Israeli society. And fear from what? What has one of the world’s strongest armies and Nuclear powers to fear? Yes, nothing actually, because they can reduce their neighbours to dust. They merely require their military strength to enforce their supremacist dictates on the weak and vulnerable who stand in their way. Hence the reason it is vital for them to hide behind the veil of self defense.

    Regrettably as a consequence, Israel is sadly dominated by Zionist politicians and the IDF retain a very unhealthy influence on society. The lives and the deaths of innocent Palestinians means absolutely nothing to them. Comparable to how the deaths of the Untermenschen, meant nothing to the Nazi's. Can you see the overlap? Can you understand how such warped ideologies, brought nothing but suffering to those whose paths they cross. Now that’s only a very brief example, I never was one to do homework for other people, but I hoped that helped.
    Irish Praetorian wrote: »
    Indeed we might but until you come up with an idea of what exactly Zionism is, were left in the dark now aren't we?

    Come up with the idea? No flattery won’t work. I’m afraid most people of common sense understood what Zionism was about long, long before I even existed.
    Irish Praetorian wrote: »
    there's is an idea of Zionism which was predicated on the need to establish a Jewish state.

    An idea? I think you meant to say an excuse. Yes there is an excuse that Zionists themselves use, to justify their terrorism. The Nazi’s also had no difficulty in inventing similar justifications/ excuses for their actions. Unfortunately, it’s what fanatics tend do. Mark Regev provides an excellent study in such a disturbing mindset.
    Irish Praetorian wrote: »
    So you can make analogies for Zionism, but you still can't do so much as tell us what on earth it is.

    (See the above and also see multiple previous posts) Tell us? Have you now become ‘us’? Was that a little slip? How many of ‘you’ are there? Anyway I digress, I have zero tolerance for willful ignorance. Nor do I generally entertain feigned ignorance. I’m sure you can understand the poisonous ideology of Nazism, then you should be quite capable of understanding the similar poison that is Zionism. Although I suspect that wouldn't suit your agenda.
    Irish Praetorian wrote: »
    Do you imagine the American Revolutionaries were regarded by the British establishment as anything other than terrorists? Or the first Irish Freedom Fighters?

    Here you go with you continuing diversions again. Does it really surprise you that an oppressor, would view the resistance of a subjugated people as terrorism? I mean how else can they legitimatise their brutality against them. How else can they justify their pogroms against the innocent? Isn't the ‘noble’ IDF just defending Israel? Haven’t they a right to murder whom they wish to self defense? After all, when the status quo is threatened, the dominant power can justify and label with abandon.
    Irish Praetorian wrote: »
    There is no easily made distinction in peoples mind between terrorism and freedom fighters, like that old cliche goes. History alone tends to determine who is a freedom fighter and who is a terrorist.

    Sorry you are quite wrong. Most people in my experience can easily make the distinction between terrorists and freedom fighters. I’m a pretty well-travelled individual and my Irish identity has always been very well received. So I can safely say in my experience, little Ireland seems to be held in high regard. Largely because it is seen as a little nation, that broke free from an oppressive imperial monolith. People tend to take the view, that when the weak stands up to the strong oppressor, they are generally regarded as being justified in doing so. I mean it's not rocket science really, when an aggressor terrorises and subjugates a people, it's pretty obvious who the terrorists are. Anyway no more diversion for me, wriggle and spin away, I'm done with time wasting.


  • #4488
    Irish Praetorian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Irish Praetorian


    WakeUp wrote: »
    If youre going to bring realpolitik into the discussion then lets be realistic shall we. I would posit that the current Israeli government, notwithstanding your suspicions, do not desire a genuine peace with the Palestinians on anything other than their terms. that wont work not now not ever. you wont make peace like that and there is no room for peace on such terms. for me this is the reality of this particular situation. comparing this conflict with the conflict in the north and using that as a premise as to why Israel shouldnt be held accountable for possible war crimes doesnt work for me. Im afraid Im not having that. If Israel committed war crimes they must be held to account this time. anything less in my opinion is unacceptable.

    I would speculate that the idea of peace is indeed less attractive to an Israeli government than it might be to us here, then again, I imagine a Palestinian government would have quite a few suspicions about a peace deal which might require it to give up Jerusalem, or the right of return, or territory in the West Bank. However that does not detract from the fact that Israel has offered two concrete peace deals in the past 15 years, both of which ended up getting the cold shoulder from the Palestinians for reasons which have left me utterly at a loss.
    You might not have heard of the ‘Hannibal Protocol’, but it's behind one of Israel's worst atrocities yet
    What's more, the Israeli colonel behind it all seems to think it was divine:

    While Israel and Hamas are still looking for ways to end their Gaza war, the UN Human Rights Council has appointed a three-member panel to investigate allegations that humanitarian law was violated in the Gaza Strip during the fighting, in a manner that could amount to war crimes.
    Close to 2,000 Palestinians have so far been killed in Gaza, a majority of them civilians, while the Israelis have lost 64 soldiers and three civilians. On past precedent, Israel is highly unlikely to co-operate with any UN investigation.

    The UN team, no doubt, will look into IDF attacks on schools and hospitals during the Gaza war, but I strongly believe that their first priority, and top on their list of incidents-to-be-investigated should be the events that took place in Rafah in the southern Gaza Strip on Friday, August 1. There are three words that define this day: "The Hannibal Protocol".

    The colonel who orchestrated the assault on Rafah was Ofer Winter, the commander of the Givati Brigade. A religious settler, on the eve of the Gaza war he dispatched a letter to his troops, laden with biblical references, which perhaps explains the ferocity with which they attacked Rafah.

    What Colonel Winter called on his troops to do was, effectively, to conduct a religious war on Gaza. Here are some quotes from his letter:

    "History has chosen us to be the sharp edge of the bayonet of fighting the terrorist enemy from Gaza which curses, defames and abuses the God of Israel’s battles … We will… wipe out the enemy… Using all means at our disposal and with all required force… I turn my eyes to the sky and call with you ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.’ God, the Lord of Israel, make our path successful, as we are about to fight for Your People, Israel, against an enemy who defames your name."

    Colonel Winter managed to wipe out many Palestinians — but alas, they were non-combatant civilians. Therefore his actions, as well as those working with him, must be thoroughly investigated by the UN to establish whether it amounted to war crimes. We cannot allow The Hannibal Protocol to be used in such a way again.

    Are you expecting me to defend this man? I have no intention, as I have said many times, of excusing and apologizing for atrocities simply because Israel commits them - there may be circumstances when I find such conduct extenuated and times when I think it best not to act upon it, but I am under no more obligation to defend this man than anyone else.


  • #4489
    Irish Praetorian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Irish Praetorian


    Corvus Maximus wrote: »
    Text

    This looks like a great post but its going to take me some time to get around to it, kindly bear with.


  • #4490
    evo2000
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,728 ✭✭✭evo2000


    Irish Praetorian wrote: »
    I would speculate that the idea of peace is indeed less attractive to an Israeli government than it might be to us here, then again, I imagine a Palestinian government would have quite a few suspicions about a peace deal which might require it to give up Jerusalem, or the right of return, or territory in the West Bank. However that does not detract from the fact that Israel has offered two concrete peace deals in the past 15 years, both of which ended up getting the cold shoulder from the Palestinians for reasons which have left me utterly at a loss.



    Are you expecting me to defend this man? I have no intention, as I have said many times, of excusing and apologizing for atrocities simply because Israel commits them - there may be circumstances when I find such conduct extenuated and times when I think it best not to act upon it, but I am under no more obligation to defend this man than anyone else.

    The samson option is another one that is a good read.


  • #4491
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    Irish Praetorian wrote: »
    I would speculate that the idea of peace is indeed less attractive to an Israeli government than it might be to us here, then again, I imagine a Palestinian government would have quite a few suspicions about a peace deal which might require it to give up Jerusalem, or the right of return, or territory in the West Bank. However that does not detract from the fact that Israel has offered two concrete peace deals in the past 15 years, both of which ended up getting the cold shoulder from the Palestinians for reasons which have left me utterly at a loss.

    With regard to this position I would like to draw your attention to the following link which I posted earlier today.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-CiTT2OxlQ

    You can refer to the relevant post or google to find out who the individuals are. In summary the Israeli insider admits that it was Israel that withdrew from Taba because of election concerns at home and so this fallacy that it was the Palestinians rejected the agreement is quite comprehensively dismissed by a man who was in a position to know.


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  • #4492
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    WakeUp wrote: »
    You might not have heard of the ‘Hannibal Protocol’, but it's behind one of Israel's worst atrocities yet
    What's more, the Israeli colonel behind it all seems to think it was divine:



    What Colonel Winter called on his troops to do was, effectively, to conduct a religious war on Gaza. Here are some quotes from his letter:

    "History has chosen us to be the sharp edge of the bayonet of fighting the terrorist enemy from Gaza which curses, defames and abuses the God of Israel’s battles … We will… wipe out the enemy… Using all means at our disposal and with all required force… I turn my eyes to the sky and call with you ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.’ God, the Lord of Israel, make our path successful, as we are about to fight for Your People, Israel, against an enemy who defames your name."

    Colonel Winter managed to wipe out many Palestinians — but alas, they were non-combatant civilians. Therefore his actions, as well as those working with him, must be thoroughly investigated by the UN to establish whether it amounted to war crimes. We cannot allow The Hannibal Protocol to be used in such a way again.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/you-might-not-have-heard-of-the-hannibal-protocol-but-its-behind-one-of-israels-worst-atrocities-yet-9678780.html

    I came across that in Hebrew and so was unable to read it and so thank you for posting it in english.It's quite chilling!


  • #4493
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 95,515 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Irish Praetorian wrote: »
    Which 18 months were these? Because they certainly weren't the 18 months prior to this July which saw 275 attacks on Israel of varying type.
    specifically rocket attacks by Hamas from Gaza that caused casualties.


    Actually, the UK together with most of the western allies, did launch indiscriminate attacks on civilians, as bombing proved pretty quickly ineffective when targeting individual factories, so entire city districts were targeted instead. The usual response to allies not bombing indiscriminately is the firebombings of Dresden and Tokyo as well as the two nuclear attacks on Japan. Its a damn good thing the allies won, because notwithstanding the evils of Nazism, quite a few might have ended up on trial had they not. This is of course to say nothing of the actions of the Soviet Union during the second world war, which included ethnic cleansing to the sum of several million, mass rapes and a host of other atrocities, also unpunished.
    Ah the old "they did it too" excuse.

    The RAF didn't attack civilian targets until after the Luftwaffe blitzed London AND it was shown that bombing accuracy at that stage of the war was abysmal AND trying to attack during they day to improve accuracy was suicidal AND the main function of the bombing until 1944 was to keep up morale at home and show to the Russians that the West was doing it's bit. None of these reasons apply in Gaza.

    The USAF kept up daylight raids at great cost to airmen, partially to avoid civilians.

    What's the point of comparing how Stalin's Russia behaved after what the Germans did to anything. Unless of course you meant to imply that those with military in the ascendency need not worry about external justice or even internal justice.


  • #4494
    hju6
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,432 ✭✭✭hju6


    Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Wednesday Israel’s military campaign in Gaza may be an extended operation and he accused the territory’s Hamas rulers of using “savagery” against civilians just like Islamic State militants in Iraq.

    http://www.france24.com/en/20140820-israel-netanyahu-hamas-is-gaza-palestinians/

    Stooping low now, any excuse to take it all


  • #4495
    WakeUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,823 ✭✭✭WakeUp


    Irish Praetorian wrote: »
    I would speculate that the idea of peace is indeed less attractive to an Israeli government than it might be to us here, then again, I imagine a Palestinian government would have quite a few suspicions about a peace deal which might require it to give up Jerusalem, or the right of return, or territory in the West Bank. However that does not detract from the fact that Israel has offered two concrete peace deals in the past 15 years, both of which ended up getting the cold shoulder from the Palestinians for reasons which have left me utterly at a loss.

    Are you expecting me to defend this man? I have no intention, as I have said many times, of excusing and apologizing for atrocities simply because Israel commits them - there may be circumstances when I find such conduct extenuated and times when I think it best not to act upon it, but I am under no more obligation to defend this man than anyone else.

    I think there is little to no doubt as to where the current Israeli government stands about genuinely attempting to make peace with the Palestinians. Camp David summit and the Taba talks is this what you are referring to?.. no I dont expect you to defend his actions nor the IDFs in this case, if true how could anyone defend that. though if true this incident among all the others highlights if ever it needed highlighting as to why Israel must be held to account this time. so it never happens again.


  • #4496
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    hju6 wrote: »
    Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Wednesday Israel’s military campaign in Gaza may be an extended operation and he accused the territory’s Hamas rulers of using “savagery” against civilians just like Islamic State militants in Iraq.

    http://www.france24.com/en/20140820-israel-netanyahu-hamas-is-gaza-palestinians/

    Stooping low now, any excuse to take it all

    There is another video up on liveleaks showing a young child with his brains blown out. Its horrific.


  • #4497
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    hju6 wrote: »
    Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Wednesday Israel’s military campaign in Gaza may be an extended operation and he accused the territory’s Hamas rulers of using “savagery” against civilians just like Islamic State militants in Iraq.

    http://www.france24.com/en/20140820-israel-netanyahu-hamas-is-gaza-palestinians/

    Stooping low now, any excuse to take it all

    Maybe slightly off topic but if Netanyahu was convicted as a war criminal should he be imprisoned,hanged,electric chair,lethal injection,shot and dumped at sea or a.n other?


  • #4498
    hju6
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,432 ✭✭✭hju6


    Tuisceanch wrote: »
    Maybe slightly off topic but if Netanyahu was convicted as a war criminal should he be imprisoned,hanged,electric chair,lethal injection,shot and dumped at sea or a.n other?

    Used in a prisoner exchange


  • #4499
    hju6
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,432 ✭✭✭hju6


    Just read a comment on
    http://therightscoop.com/boom-netanyahu-says-hamas-is-like-isis-and-isis-is-like-hamas-theyre-the-enemies-of-all-civilized-countries/


    In reply to Nethanyahu comparing Hamas to Isis,

    "What Israel is dealing with - pure savages.

    The Yediot Aharonot newspaper revealed Tuesday new details of the brutal murders of reservists Yossi Avrahami and Vadim Nurzhitz. The soldiers were lynched in Ramallah.

    One PA terrorist, Aziz got to the soldiers first, where he brutally murdered them - stabbing, beating, and dismembering them along with other rioters.

    The lifeless bodies of the soldiers were thrown out the window, where the mob below tore the bodies apart and ate the organs"

    Propaganda gone mad.


  • #4500
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    hju6 wrote: »
    Used in a prisoner exchange

    Used as a human shield against the most humanitarian army in the universe.


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  • #4501
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 95,515 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    WakeUp wrote: »
    Close to 2,000 Palestinians have so far been killed in Gaza, a majority of them civilians, while the Israelis have lost 64 soldiers and three civilians. On past precedent, Israel is highly unlikely to co-operate with any UN investigation.
    just a reminder

    Israel has not lost three civilians.

    The three civilians killed in Israel were
    a foreign worker from Thailand
    a non Jewish Berber whose village was denied protection because it was an illegal settlement
    a Jewish civilian who put himself in harms way by going to the Gaza border.

    So far of the civilians in Israel who have had access to shelters none have been killed by missiles or mortars from Gaza.

    I'll keep mentioning this to show that the Israeli response was completely over the top given the negligible risk to the civilians it was protecting.

    The "Israel has a right to defend itself" argument is only valid if the response is necessary, proportionate and targeted. There is no evidence of any of these as the collateral damage is out of all proportion and our history up north has shown that punitive measures like internment can galvanise the undecided. Collective punishment is a war crime. Indiscriminate killing is a war crime.


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