New Pay for Recruits

Skip84 · 19-08-2014 3:24pm

Had a look at the site for 2014 campaign, it states that the starting wage for that competition will be £19,000 it doesn't make any reference to when the new pay brackets will come in ie. sept 14/oct 14.

If it makes direct reference to the fact that the pay for 'this competition' will be £19k then the inference in that the 2013 competition will have to be paid at the 2013 advertised level. Otherwise the value of the contract between the employees as advertised and the actual value are so materially different that they would be incompatible with current eu procurement law and would as such be open to legal challenge.

This is under the provision that hiring of staff is covered by the general procurement legislation which in fairness it should be as employment law is for once you are in employment not when you are applying.

At least that is my take on it.

Sdcharger · 19-08-2014 5:53pm

Skip84 wrote: »

Had a look at the site for 2014 campaign, it states that the starting wage for that competition will be £19,000 it doesn't make any reference to when the new pay brackets will come in ie. sept 14/oct 14.

If it makes direct reference to the fact that the pay for 'this competition' will be £19k then the inference in that the 2013 competition will have to be paid at the 2013 advertised level. Otherwise the value of the contract between the employees as advertised and the actual value are so materially different that they would be incompatible with current eu procurement law and would as such be open to legal challenge.

This is under the provision that hiring of staff is covered by the general procurement legislation which in fairness it should be as employment law is for once you are in employment not when you are applying.

At least that is my take on it.

They advertised as pay being under review so there is no legal argument, as previously stated people have enquired and it seems everyone will be on the higher band for this recruitment however I wouldn't 100% guarantee it until your first pay cheque comes through or you get it clarified at induction.

Skip84 · 20-08-2014 11:15am

Even though the pay was advertised as under review, the difference in levels of renumeration is approximately 20% of total annual value, therefore it probably isn't compatible. As far as I am aware the highest material difference in value under legislation can be 10% even accounting for when we advertised based on estimated usage/values and inform tendering companies of such.

A good brief/union could challenge this based on the value involved.

Also the wording of the new campaign specifically saying that 'this' campaign basic starting pay will be 19k seems to emphasise that they are applying it to the 2014 campaign and not the 2013 campaign, otherwise you would state a date ie. from Sept 2014 the new basic starting salary will be.

I'm not expert and only basing it on what I know of procurement law from my current job.

DesertCreat_15 · 20-08-2014 12:19pm

Give over about the pay, if you are THAT worried about pay you are applying for the wrong job.

mahoney1 · 20-08-2014 12:49pm

DesertCreat_15 wrote: »

Give over about the pay, if you are THAT worried about pay you are applying for the wrong job.

Forgive me if i'm wrong but is that not what this thread is about. Besides people want to know what is happening. I myself want to know, as some have said before, if it was to drop to 19000 from sept I don't think it's financially viable for me in my situation. Does this mean I don't want the job as much as someone who doesn't care what salary they start on? Absolutely not.

DesertCreat_15 · 20-08-2014 1:04pm

3 or 4 people have contacted HR about it and confirmed pay will remain as is for 2013 campaign applicants.

Best thing to do is ring/email psni/deloitte yourself if you don't trust what others are saying.

mahoney1 · 20-08-2014 1:23pm

DesertCreat_15 wrote: »

3 or 4 people have contacted HR about it and confirmed pay will remain as is for 2013 campaign applicants.

Best thing to do is ring/email psni/deloitte yourself if you don't trust what others are saying.

Yes DC I know that is the best way. Even at that I wouldn't trust/believe them until I was in with pay check in hand. I'm just saying that this thread/board is full of useful sometimes useless information that people are only too glad to read about. Maybe giving some a ray of hope of some sort what ever stage they're at.

Skip84 · 20-08-2014 1:26pm

I'm not worried about the pay as such, just trying to reassure those who are. My wage would be similar to what I am on now if the new payscale came into place for 2013 applicants.

I do understand why some people would be though, as a drop to 19k can inform a lot of your decision making. If for instance it isn't really viable to live in your area long-term for security reasons the potential of moving to an area which is a bit more secure is directly related to your level of pay, especially for those who are single and cannot get a mortage based on two incomes.

Those with young children or other dependants who really want the job can also be concerned about pay because they might face financial hardship if they were to suffer an unmanagable drop in pay, which could be detrimental to those dependants.

I actually think it's quite unfair of you Desert to automatically assume that people are concerned because they are just after the money, while ignoring that other factors come into play.

DesertCreat_15 · 20-08-2014 2:02pm

Don't take the risk then, turn down their offer. Speculating about whether HR is lieng is crazy in my opinion.

Skip84 · 20-08-2014 2:19pm

I agree, I wasn't speculating whether HR or lying or not. As I said it doesn't make much difference to me as the pay levels are similar. I think people are just concerned that there hasn't been a general broadcast to 2013 campaign members confirming the previous payscale.

All in all i'll just be happier to have a job were I can make a difference as opposed to sitting on a computer all day and by the time you are in 5 years anyway the pay evens out, the new payscales seem to be designed to deter people entering the profession because it pays well rather than because it is what they want to do.

Besides by the 5 year mark I would have liked to have moved up a rank at least.

Sthm · 20-08-2014 2:47pm

Personally, I remain sceptical that all successful candidates from Campaign 1 starting post-September will be on £23k. Too much conflicting information from different bodies, so I'm keeping an open mind. With the budget cuts and funding issues the public sector is faced with, I think it's only right to take things with a pinch of salt and expect anything. Might be a pleasant surprise then if it does stay at £23k. That's just my opinion, though.

The new pay & conditions agreement will undoubtedly lead to some good and eager candidates not applying because of the financial burden involved and/or a perceived lack of risk v adequate remuneration. That's inevitable, but that's unfortunately just the way it is. I think it's unfair, however, to lambaste anyone who is worried about whether it'd be financially viable to join given other potential commitments they may have.

DesertCreat_15 · 20-08-2014 3:26pm

Didnt intend to fall out with or annoy anyone with what I said, just getting at the fact that there is no point in speculating about what's going to happen. I would hate to see pay reduced to £19k despite others being on 23 or whatever it is. People should make their concerns known to HR and I'm sure they would go out of their way to put people's minds at ease.

Speculation doesn't help anyone sleep easier at night, certainly not me anyway!

mahoney1 · 20-08-2014 5:01pm

DesertCreat_15 wrote: »

Don't take the risk then, turn down their offer. Speculating about whether HR is lieng is crazy in my opinion.

There will be no risk by the time i'm in my friend as it will be at least september and we will have more information to go on hopefully. I didn't really mean that they were lying, just that they have only been given so much info and might not know. So things can change. Anyway speculation is all that you and I have to go on at the min .

HighburyLad · 20-08-2014 5:14pm

Everyone will end up in due time on the same wage, those on the 23k wage will have a pay freeze for two years at pay point 3 or 4 as said on the circular, the minute that anyone joins the PSNI there are officers on the top bracket instantly due to their tenure, and you will have the RUC boys on even more, pay scales are all over the show, that's the reality of public servants especially in the 21st century. It doesn't affect me in the same way as it would others, but I appreciate the concern others would have.

The new pension proposals are more a worry, if successful, that will have a more detrimental effect on new recruits than pay which eventually goes up, but with the new proposals of mandatory 35 years and 5% less for each year taken earlier than the 35 years, and the pay more for less pension is kinda mental bare in mind officers pay in excess for a full pension 500 pound a month into their pensions, if this goes through, the days of retiring on a good amount of money and a nice annual pension are none existent.

At the end of the day, everything is changing because of these budget cuts. I suppose all will reveal itself come September when we will know the score for those in the 1309 campaign, but people should be wary of the pension proposals too, as its going to have a bigger impact than the new salaries in the long term anyway.

marfrig2014 · 20-08-2014 5:28pm

Anyone not at all attracted in the money aspect of the police career (or any career) is in a small minority. I would love to have that dedication/calling but it's not my reality. When you're in you will see just how money obsessed peelers are!

When you're risking life and limb, checking your car every morning doing long unsociable hours, travelling and dealing with society's lowlife alongside ridiculous ombudsman complaints it is only natural to expect a higher wage than 19k.

Just my take on it. I understand some would do it for free. But that romanticised notion doesn't fly in my world I'm afraid.

DesertCreat_15 · 20-08-2014 5:36pm

I know fine rightly marfrig, if you check back you will see me giving out stink about it too ! I'm happy enough to believe HR in what they say - that pay will remain the same. Should be it a case that pay is cut, we can already see the effects of that here.

A reduction would (and will) be detrimental for the PSNI, it simply wont attract the same caliber of people as it has in the past.

Anyway, we're getting away from the point - No point in speculating, if you want to do anything constructive - contact your local MLA to have a parliamentary question put to the justice minister.

Sdcharger · 20-08-2014 6:07pm

marfrig2014 wrote: »

When you're risking life and limb, checking your car every morning doing long unsociable hours, travelling and dealing with society's lowlife alongside ridiculous ombudsman complaints it is only natural to expect a higher wage than 19k.

.

You won't be doing it for 19k, 19k is just for training.

Another factor is the extra 3k N.I. allowance you get factored into your salary from when you enter training as well which brings it above the rest of UK.

If you don't like the wage, you don't have to take the job, simple as that

mahoney1 · 20-08-2014 8:05pm

Anyway, we're getting away from the point - No point in speculating, if you want to do anything constructive - contact your local MLA to have a parliamentary question put to the justice minister.[/quote]

Here's an idea why don't you do it. Instead of giving off maybe you could channel your frustration or whatever it is into something good.

DesertCreat_15 · 20-08-2014 8:30pm

Well maybe I would if I actually lived in Northern Ireland but it just so happens I don't.

PS Not giving out, just merely putting an idea out there.

Homer01 · 20-08-2014 8:36pm

We are an argumentative bunch today; is it a full moon?

If the pay situation is dividing 'potential' officers here what will it be like in the stations?

My opinion is EVERYTHING is subject to change especially with the continuous budget cuts. As Highburylad said they could start you on £23k and then freeze it for a few years. Or they could start you on £19k and bump you to £23k next year.

I really think statements like 'if you don't like the pay don't take the job' are not very helpful. I don't like the pay in my current job but I took it; I also like to have moan about once in a while. It's what we do

Everyone needs to take the ice water challenge and cool down

(18 days until IST results

)

Homer01 · 20-08-2014 8:37pm

DesertCreat_15 wrote: »

Well maybe I would if I actually lived in Northern Ireland but it just so happens I don't.

PS Not giving out, just merely putting an idea out there.

Bloody foreigners coming here taking our jobs and our women!!

mahoney1 · 20-08-2014 9:02pm

DesertCreat_15 wrote: »

Well maybe I would if I actually lived in Northern Ireland but it just so happens I don't.

PS Not giving out, just merely putting an idea out there.

No bother bud. We'll leave it there. Good luck in the rest of the process anyway.

mahoney1 · 20-08-2014 9:04pm

Homer01 wrote: »

Bloody foreigners coming here taking our jobs and our women!!

They can take the women for all I care. ðŸ˜„

0O0 · 20-08-2014 9:26pm

mahoney1 wrote: »

They can take the women for all I care. ðŸ˜„

Ah Mahoney shall that be you purposely dropping the soap in Garnerville then?!

mahoney1 · 20-08-2014 10:19pm

0O0 wrote: »

Ah Mahoney shall that be you purposely dropping the soap in Garnerville then?!

Ha ha. Mind you I have butter fingers.

Chief Wiggum2 · 23-08-2014 10:48pm

All that has been said from inside the training complex is that the next squad will be on £19k, thats the next squad entering from the 2013 campaign. It is widely known amongst all students, staff and other members of the policing family that this is the case. It's just a case of tough titty, I wouldn't be keen on it and wouldn't leave my old job for that money but thats the way the cookie crumbles unfortunately. Everyone will tell you that it is worth it thought as its the best job in the world. Plus with the shortage of officers you are guaranteed at least £30K per annum when you include overtime.

pcplod · 23-08-2014 10:57pm

Chief Wiggum2 wrote: »

All that has been said from inside the training complex is that the next squad will be on £19k, thats the next squad entering from the 2013 campaign. It is widely known amongst all students, staff and other members of the policing family that this is the case. It's just a case of tough titty, I wouldn't be keen on it and wouldn't leave my old job for that money but thats the way the cookie crumbles unfortunately. Everyone will tell you that it is worth it thought as its the best job in the world. Plus with the shortage of officers you are guaranteed at least £30K per annum when you include overtime.

its all fair and well saying tough titty etc but would you be saying that if you were on the next intake? Not that im having a go but if this is the case they have opened the floodgates....not only is it unfair that folk are going to be on a lower wage due to no fault of their own but its highly unethical and unprofessional that other students etc know this when the folk on the next few intakes havnt been told diddly squat.......

Dekkers · 23-08-2014 11:10pm

I find it hard to believe that they've lured people into the next intake under false pretenses. Are they really going to let people quit their jobs/hand in their notice/uproot their families etc etc only to turn around and say the salary is lower than anticipated. It would be a minefield.

pcplod · 23-08-2014 11:15pm

Dekkers wrote: »

I find it hard to believe that they've lured people into the next intake under false pretenses. Are they really going to let people quit their jobs/hand in their notice/uproot their families etc etc only to turn around and say the salary is lower than anticipated. It would be a minefield.

im in that exact situation, notice in, relocating next month.......

Dekkers · 23-08-2014 11:19pm

pcplod wrote: »

im in that exact situation, notice in, relocating next month.......

I'd like to think they would have made it clear IF you were going to be earning significantly less than anticipated at the time of your call. Why risk a high drop out post induction (where I assume this would be discussed) or even worse once training has begun.

Personally I believe the starting salary for all 2013 candidates will be £23k. I have correspondence to this effect and see no reason for a lie from PSNI HR.

Chief Wiggum2 · 23-08-2014 11:20pm

I agree that they have opened the floodgates, it's ridiculous. But unfortunately they have covered themselves by putting the footnote in the campaign saying that it is subject to change. They justify it by saying that you will get on the same level within a few years and will still get to max constable pay after 7 years but i'd be happier getting the higher initial wage to be honest

Tim89 · 23-08-2014 11:28pm

Chief Wiggum2 wrote: »

I agree that they have opened the floodgates, it's ridiculous. But unfortunately they have covered themselves by putting the footnote in the campaign saying that it is subject to change. They justify it by saying that you will get on the same level within a few years and will still get to max constable pay after 7 years but i'd be happier getting the higher initial wage to be honest

How is that justifying it?

What's about the thousands that you miss out on during those years to get to the same level???

Where is your information coming from? I believe you've been misled

marfrig2014 · 24-08-2014 9:33am

Were those told by HR that it's 23k told verbally or by email? If by email I would keep that email safe!

I just worry those in HR who deal with routine external queries would not be in a position to actually know. They may believe its 23k but the command teams who decide these things haven't properly disseminated the decision yet.

Tim89 · 24-08-2014 11:31am

Ok people so Timmy has been doing his numbers!

I am not at all saying that the following information is correct down to the pound because my calculations have been made on a couple of small adjustments (due to laziness

)

Adjustment 1 - My calculation for the first pay scale (during G'ville) is based on 6 months pay and not the correct amount of weeks.

Adjustment 2 - Year 4 under the REVISED 2014 PAYSCALE I have used 6 months pay from each of the 2 yearly wage figures published, on the assumption that this year for the new pay scale contains an extra pay rise - presumably at the 6 month mark.

None of these figures take into account tax and all that jazz ...

ACCUMULATIVE PAY UP TO YEAR 5 (where the two pay scales match up)

£23k starting pay = APPROX £151,744

£19k starting pay = APPROX £127,671.50

That means that those that start on the £19k Payscale will be paid APPROX £24,072.50 LESS THAN the £23k starters over the 5 years.

Now I am not being a sh*t about it, but to me that's a lot of money over 5 years , new car/good lump of the mortgage/dream holiday/dream wedding lots of things to us on the ground, and I should like to think that the PSNI wouldn't drop the pay so dramatically - especially for those of us that have been delayed through this process for no good and viable fault of our own, but due to Deloittes clerical errors. To miss out on that money is a blow, I'd take this job at £17k because it's what I want to do... But to advertise and then change the amount by so much... I believe is extremely unethical and doesn't provide much inspiration for people who are already taking a paycut for the advertised £23k per annum.

Cromlech · 24-08-2014 4:44pm

Surely the remaining squads due to enter training from the 2013 campaign would be notified at the earliest possible opportunity that the pay they expected will be reduced. A number of things to consider:-

1. The dropout rate would be unfeasible, due to the immediate need for police officers.

2. The huge waste of resources/finances to allow candidates to proceed through the latter stages such as PCA, medical etc. Only for them to turn down the job offer due to the salary cut.

3. How could they justify reducing the salary for some of this campaign and not the others? It would be like McDonalds paying someone less than another who started a week earlier, even though they applied through same advert with the same job/benefits description. They could possibly leave themselves open to unfair treatment cases (just a thought, I'm no expert).

4. Why would the training staff at GV now about salary changes? It has nothing to do with them. They are not HR, I highly doubt they are involved in anything pay related and would therefore be going on speculation, same as any student officers that may say the same.

5. The guys in HR are presumably professional and would in all likelihood make it their business to know what pay rates are for this campaign, especially due to the fact candidates are contacting them to find out.

Cromlech · 24-08-2014 4:55pm

I forgot to add;-

Some folk who achieved top end results at both IST and AC could face starting off on a reduced salary compared to someone who got less than them due the length of time some vetting takes....seems a bit unreasonable.

JayC90 · 26-08-2014 1:20pm

2013 recruits will be on £23259 as advertised when we applied.

Correction:
Starting pay point - £23,493

Pay rates are due to change slightly in September, but its an increase, we wont be going on to the new payscales.

Skip84 · 26-08-2014 4:52pm

JayC90 have you had that confirmed by HR, they are still ignoring every email I have sent to them.

Tim89 · 27-08-2014 9:16am

As JayC has said, and separately from wherever he found out, I can CONFIRM that ALL applicants from 2013 recruitment campaign will be on the higher wage band if successful.

JayC90 · 27-08-2014 10:11am

Skip84 wrote: »

JayC90 have you had that confirmed by HR, they are still ignoring every email I have sent to them.

Aye confirmed and finance sent me the pay banding as well

pb82 · 07-11-2014 8:44pm

Hi

First post in the forum

Im currently playing the waiting game with an AC score of 65

I was talking to a friend who was part of intake 5, he confirmed he is on the higher starting payscale even though his start date was post September 1st

He did however say that he heard intake 6 would be starting on the lower salary, this may just be rumours about gv though

I only hope the recruitment is not cancelled for january as there are strong rumours going about that it may be

Essentially they are operating on a squad by squad basis

DesertCreat_15 · 07-11-2014 9:12pm

They are not on the lower salary! Still plenty a room left in GV yet, however campaign 2 size is going to be reduced to god knows what.

Our 1309 campaign should be safe !

New Pay for Recruits

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