Is Windows Phone Dying?

theothernt · 07-08-2014 4:01pm

PaulieC wrote: »

I don't really know. After about a week of using Cortana, she asked me "was this home' and 'was this work', obviously from being geo-aware and seeing a pattern. Then a few weeks ago she started telling me about my commute. I might have associated Here Drive with it, but I can't really remember

The OS is taking note of your general locations throughout the day, and after a few days can guess where you live and work.

It uses 'region monitoring' to figure this stuff out, which uses hardly any power (read: not GPS!).

cherryghost · 07-08-2014 4:02pm

Considering Nokia's upcoming phones will have Android, yes, it may be dying.

PaulieC · 07-08-2014 4:25pm

cherryghost wrote: »

Considering Nokia's upcoming phones will have Android, yes, it may be dying.

are these new phones ? I'm not sure how Nokia is planning to bring out any phones since it sold it's mobile division

PaulieC · 07-08-2014 4:29pm

beauf wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with his all his conclusions.

IMO Apple is profitable because it stopped chasing market share long ago and is solely interested in products that give it a healthy profit margin. Which is why it doesn't focus one the mid to low end at all.

Samsung has over saturated the market. Its also got too many models which its drops support for too quickly. I wouldn't be keen on buying a Samsung because any one I've had has been dropped off the updates list very fast, as they bring out another with go faster stripes and only minor hardware changes. Android doesn't do low end very well, and Samsung fills its Devices with bloat which slows down low end devices even further. It also makes all its devices look the same. So to the untrained eye a €500 phone looks very similar to a €100 phone. it also has a lot of competition offering very similar products, even better in that they have less bloat and get supported longer. Or have a different design language.

If you buy an iPhone, Apple makes a healthy profit on the handset (premium pricing). It also makes money on all apps that you buy.

If you buy a Samsung (or any Android), they make a lesser amount of profit, depending on the handset and then every time you buy an app, the money goes to Google.

Android handset makers are relying on the customer to upgrade all the time in order for them to get repeat profits. Most people (and I am generalizing here) buy an Android because they're kind of like an iPhone only a lot cheaper and I would think that those people are not the type to upgrade every year.

Fingleberries · 07-08-2014 4:48pm

cherryghost wrote: »

Considering Nokia's upcoming phones will have Android, yes, it may be dying.

You are probably referring to the Nokia X and X2 series of phones which run a branched version of Android (read: no Google services).

Microsoft has killed these already with their recent restructuring, so any new Nokia branded phoned will only be Windows Phones.

The existing 'X' phones that have been sold will still be supported, but they will change that line for a WP8.x based system (see: Lumia 520 / 530 type low-end devices) in future.

theothernt · 08-08-2014 6:20pm

cherryghost wrote: »

Considering Nokia's upcoming phones will have Android, yes, it may be dying.

I think you're a few weeks behind on the news. But either way, that statement is nonsense.

Raskolnikov · 11-08-2014 11:26pm

Have always been a massive Nokia fan and despite having reservations, I was willing to give Windows Phone a chance, using a Lumia 920 for about 18 months now. While the eco-system has come on massively, especially with the update from WP7 to WP8, the pace of innovation has slowed and the platform just has not caught up with iOS or Android. The first and obvious issue is the apps situation - from what I can see there is a very obvious problem with quality in the Windows app store. For example, on my Nexus tablet, I have Yatse as an XBMC remote, an app that's free and 100% fully featured. While XBMC apps exist on Windows Phone, not one comes close to being as good as Yatse. Even worse, some apps just don't seem to work at all. I was looking to get a pizza from Domino's. Downloaded the Windows Phone app, it wouldn't accept a credit card at all. I tried the Domino's site through IE for WP - didn't render properly. Downloaded the Android version of the app for Android - worked no problem at all. That leads me onto the second problem with Windows Phone. Compared to Chrome on Android 4.4, IE is slower and doesn't work at all with many sites. As a heavy browser user, it drives me mad when I cannot use a website on my phone. Another problem with Windows Phone is the painfully slow OS updates. Other than one minor firmware update to fix a camera issue, my Lumia 920 has not gotten a single OS update. When you look at how Apple support their users (the 3GS got OS updates for nearly 5 years), you see just how little Microsoft value theirs. Those are the big issues, but there's loads of little annoyances that just seem to take forever to get fixed or are just ignored.

I think Nokia did great work in propping up the Windows Phone eco-system (HERE maps, Mix Radio, Glance Screen, AMOLED screens, Pureview) and I think if it wasn't for them, then Windows Phone would already be dead. With that partnership now coming to an end and all innovation being moved in-house to Microsoft - I just don't see Microsoft being able to do enough by themselves to compete against Apple or Google. Personally, I will be swallowing my pride and moving to an iPhone when the 6 comes out in a few months. I don't like Android and I just cannot bring myself to buy the ludicrously overpriced Lumia 930.

theothernt · 11-08-2014 11:57pm

Raskolnikov wrote: »

Have always been a massive Nokia fan and despite having reservations, I was willing to give Windows Phone a chance, using a Lumia 920 for about 18 months now. While the eco-system has come on massively, especially with the update from WP7 to WP8, the pace of innovation has slowed and the platform just has not caught up with iOS or Android. The first and obvious issue is the apps situation - from what I can see there is a very obvious problem with quality in the Windows app store. For example, on my Nexus tablet, I have Yatse as an XBMC remote, an app that's free and 100% fully featured. While XBMC apps exist on Windows Phone, not one comes close to being as good as Yatse. Even worse, some apps just don't seem to work at all. I was looking to get a pizza from Domino's. Downloaded the Windows Phone app, it wouldn't accept a credit card at all. I tried the Domino's site through IE for WP - didn't render properly. Downloaded the Android version of the app for Android - worked no problem at all. That leads me onto the second problem with Windows Phone. Compared to Chrome on Android 4.4, IE is slower and doesn't work at all with many sites. As a heavy browser user, it drives me mad when I cannot use a website on my phone. Another problem with Windows Phone is the painfully slow OS updates. Other than one minor firmware update to fix a camera issue, my Lumia 920 has not gotten a single OS update. When you look at how Apple support their users (the 3GS got OS updates for nearly 5 years), you see just how little Microsoft value theirs. Those are the big issues, but there's loads of little annoyances that just seem to take forever to get fixed or are just ignored.

I think Nokia did great work in propping up the Windows Phone eco-system (HERE maps, Mix Radio, Glance Screen, AMOLED screens, Pureview) and I think if it wasn't for them, then Windows Phone would already be dead. With that partnership now coming to an end and all innovation being moved in-house to Microsoft - I just don't see Microsoft being able to do enough by themselves to compete against Apple or Google. Personally, I will be swallowing my pride and moving to an iPhone when the 6 comes out in a few months. I don't like Android and I just cannot bring myself to buy the ludicrously overpriced Lumia 930.

By the sounds of it, you're not running 8.1 yet?

bidiots · 12-08-2014 6:16am

theothernt wrote: »

By the sounds of it, you're not running 8.1 yet?

Have to agree, latest update solves most of the problems you're talking about, apart from apps obviously.
not a fan of IE either but its pretty solid on WP... It will gain traction, but firstly in the lower priced market share, which will hamper app design even further , annoyingly.

beauf · 12-08-2014 8:20am

I'm not sure you'll see those big numbers on the 520 moving to more expensive wp devices. Many might move to ios or android. We've the 520 as a work phone and I've not seen anyone replace it with a another wp phone.

Raskolnikov · 12-08-2014 10:16pm

theothernt wrote: »

By the sounds of it, you're not running 8.1 yet?

Nope - the 920 isn't going to get 8.1 until September.

theothernt · 12-08-2014 11:50pm

Raskolnikov wrote: »

Nope - the 920 isn't going to get 8.1 until September.

Officially yes, but the Dev Preview programme allows you to get it early. When you do get 8.1, it should fix a number of the issues you mention. Except the apps, that will take time.

simi956 · 13-08-2014 9:40am

WP 8.1 available already for Lumia 920 with Vodafone according to the Nokia Availability page

harney · 13-08-2014 11:41am

PaulieC wrote: »

Most people (and I am generalizing here) buy an Android because they're kind of like an iPhone only a lot cheaper and I would think that those people are not the type to upgrade every year.

I'm not sure I've ever been so insulted in my life, and I've lived far from a sheltered life

. There are many reasons not to buy an Apple product ranging from the look of other phones and their OS to just not being a dick (I'm generalizing here).

unkel · 14-08-2014 12:43am

I wouldn't worry too much about the WP platform. Sure, worldwide and US percentages are still low, but they are rising very fast in Europe. Here in Ireland (typically a bit behind on technology) it's over 10%. In several EU countries it's higher than Apple already

And MS is big and rich and persistent. They are in it for the long haul. They have proven time and time again in the last 40 years that they will dominate / make significant profits of whatever area of business they are going after. Last time I looked MS had about 10 completely different lines of business each generating more than $1 billion in profits.

theothernt wrote: »

Officially yes, but the Dev Preview programme allows you to get it early. When you do get 8.1, it should fix a number of the issues you mention. Except the apps, that will take time.

Over 300,000 apps now on WP. How many does one need?

I'm the first to acknowledge though that if you are looking for something very specific / local that is available on Android, chances are it's not there on WP.

beauf · 14-08-2014 6:59am

You need the apps you need. For example for Irish commuting trains the only app I've found to be accurate is the Nokia here app. All the others I've tried are unreliable.

I'd be wary of stats they are produced by third parties and who knows for what agenda.

http://m.blogs.computerworld.com/windows-phone/24202/windows-phone-continues-slide-now-under-3-share-worldwide-it-finally-dead?mm_ref=http%3A%2F%2Ftouch.boards.ie%2Fthread%2F2057150271%2F31%2F

All I know that we have them as work phones but outside of that I rarely see one
i used to see more Lumia 800s than I do current wp phones. Every one seems to have an iphone or a Samsung.

beauf · 14-08-2014 7:05am

When apple chased market share it nearly killed them. They are focused solely on profit now.

Microsoft are not above chasing trends either. Or dropping lines when they realise they are are dead in the water.

Its sheer size means it can take a lot of punishment before it has any real impact in it

PaulieC · 14-08-2014 3:40pm

harney wrote: »

I'm not sure I've ever been so insulted in my life, and I've lived far from a sheltered life . There are many reasons not to buy an Apple product ranging from the look of other phones and their OS to just not being a dick (I'm generalizing here).

I honestly didn't mean that as an insult to anyone, as I said, I was generalizing. I know there are those out there who are technically minded and love tinkering about with stuff, but I'd bet my bottom dollar that 90% of android users wouldn't know what version of Android they are using and probably 50% of them probably don't even know they are using Android.

jimmynokia · 14-08-2014 4:29pm

IDC give WP 2.5% TODAY...

senordingdong · 14-08-2014 7:50pm

PaulieC wrote: »

Ibet 90% of android users wouldn't know what version of Android they are using and probably 50% of them probably don't even know they are using Android.

Or anything about the phones spec and features. 'oh, the man in the shop told me its very good, it's the galaxy type I think.'

Twas Not · 14-08-2014 7:51pm

Hard to beat the Apple 5s tbh

Raskolnikov · 15-08-2014 8:40am

simi956 wrote: »

WP 8.1 available already for Lumia 920 with Vodafone according to the Nokia Availability page

I bought mine unlocked and sim free.

Raskolnikov · 15-08-2014 9:04am

harney wrote: »

There are many reasons not to buy an Apple product ranging from the look of other phones and their OS to just not being a dick (I'm generalizing here).

I would have been very sneery and condescending about Apple users but I have to admit now, I was wrong. Yes, their products are a little but more expensive than Microsoft equivalents, but at least they care about their customers and provide them support. I like to buy a flagship phone every 2 years or so; I don't mind spending a premium for a device that will get heavy daily use, but I do expect regular updates throughout the lifetime of the device. In this respect, the 920 has been a disaster and I feel like I have been thrown under a bus by Microsoft.

Whatever about buying a cheapo €100 Lumia to do a basic job, you would need to have your head examined to contemplate going out and spending €500+ for a flagship Lumia. Just spend the extra €50 to get an iPhone, you get a much better device and support.

MJohnston · 15-08-2014 9:13am

jimmynokia wrote: »

IDC give WP 2.5% TODAY...

I'm willing to bet this is entirely down to the US market. Seems to be doing decently well in plenty of other markets, which is good. Those developing markets will be really important, because nobody has "taken" them yet.

Fingleberries · 15-08-2014 9:17am

I can agree with most everything that you say - Apple phones, generally, just work and are very solid and if something happens to them their support is excellent. Although, that is all part of the premium.

Raskolnikov wrote: »

I like to buy a flagship phone every 2 years or so; I don't mind spending a premium for a device that will get heavy daily use, but I do expect regular updates throughout the lifetime of the device. In this respect, the 920 has been a disaster and I feel like I have been thrown under a bus by Microsoft.

Having moved from an iPhone to a Lumia 920, I can't necessarily agree with this. In the two years since launch there have been the following updates:

WP8 GDR1
WP8 GDR2
WP8 GDR3
WP8.1
WP8.1 update 1
Nokia Amber
Nokia Black
Nokia Cyan

This could hardly be classed as abandoned, or being thrown under a bus.

Admittedly I bought the 920 a year after launch, which means I didn't have to pay full price. So that might temper my sense of outrage somewhat.

It is, of course, easier for Apple to manage their updates because they have full control over the ecosystem - limited number of hardware models, one manufacturer. Microsoft have to maintain and attract multiple manufacturers to their ecosystem, which means that the updates or changes to the OS may be more directed to them rather than the end user for now. At least that is how they explained it (link).

Joe Belfiore wrote:

“We're definitely here and paying attention to what you folks are asking for... keep in mind the trick for us is balancing things that make EXISTING devices better for you, our enthusiast users, versus things that create new devices to sell to a broader audience. A lot of the work in GDR2 was around enabling new devices-- like the Lumia 1020, devices on Sprint, etc. so that we could keep growing the size of the WP ecosystem. We need to grow the number of people using WP so we get ISVs writing the apps, we get better/more accessories built, etc.

Of course this takes time and energy, but we still do intend to improve the user experience for you via new features. There's some in GDR 2 (eg. DataSense broadly available, FM Radio) there's more coming later this year, and still more after that.

Don't worry - we are listening to you folks!”

MJohnston · 15-08-2014 9:17am

Raskolnikov wrote: »

I would have been very sneery and condescending about Apple users but I have to admit now, I was wrong. Yes, their products are a little but more expensive than Microsoft equivalents, but at least they care about their customers and provide them support. I like to buy a flagship phone every 2 years or so; I don't mind spending a premium for a device that will get heavy daily use, but I do expect regular updates throughout the lifetime of the device. In this respect, the 920 has been a disaster and I feel like I have been thrown under a bus by Microsoft.

Whatever about buying a cheapo €100 Lumia to do a basic job, you would need to have your head examined to contemplate going out and spending €500+ for a flagship Lumia. Just spend the extra €50 to get an iPhone, you get a much better device and support.

Meh, I disagree but that's entirely subjective - I bought a 1020 for the wonderful camera and have not been disappointed (it's better than every other phone camera in practically every measure).

Microsoft are no worse or better than Apple for support, or providing updates (ask iPhone 4 users how they're going to get on with iOS 8, for example) - the problem is that the carriers can interfere with the rollout of WP software updates in a way that they just can't with iOS. The freely available Developer Preview program basically solves that entirely, imo.

I've never had any hardware issues with a WP, but I did need some service with a Surface Pro, and they were fantastic about that, providing a replacement when they couldn't repair it, even though it was more than 12 months old!

Raskolnikov · 15-08-2014 9:19am

jimmynokia wrote: »

IDC give WP 2.5% TODAY...

I am not surprised that Windows Phone market share is in decline now that Nokia have been taken out. It was Nokia that drove the Windows Phone platform through Nokia services, Nokia hardware, Nokia design and Nokia Lumia branding. It was markets were Nokia were previously strong that have seen any kind of Windows Phone traction. It's no shock to see WP stumble with Nokia out of the picture.

Ultimately, that's my big complaint. All the Nokia parts in the Lumia are spot on and work brilliantly - it's Windows Phone that cripples the device.

Raskolnikov · 15-08-2014 9:25am

+

MJohnston wrote: »

Microsoft are no worse or better than Apple for support, or providing updates (ask iPhone 4 users how they're going to get on with iOS 8, for example)

You actually illustrate my point perfectly. The iPhone 4 is 4.5 years old and is on the latest version of iOS. Microsoft can only ever dream of that kind of support.

Remember the Lumia 800? Less than 1 year old before its users were thrown under the bus thanks to non-upgradable Windows Phone 7.

beauf · 15-08-2014 9:26am

MJohnston wrote: »

I'm willing to bet this is entirely down to the US market. Seems to be doing decently well in plenty of other markets, which is good. Those developing markets will be really important, because nobody has "taken" them yet.

Not really its in decline everywhere except Europe. Some reports would have the rate in europe is slowing. Hard to know none of them release accurate figures.

Raskolnikov · 15-08-2014 9:31am

MJohnston wrote: »

The freely available Developer Preview program basically solves that entirely, imo.

This isn't the 90's anymore. Bought a 2012 Nexus 7 running 4.1 and within a day it was updated to the latest version of 4.4.4 over the air within a day. My wife has a 4s, it gets the latest version of iOS within days of release. I don't give a stuff about Joel Belfiore and excuses, if Apple and Google can get their users updated, then Microsoft should be able to too.

Is Windows Phone Dying?

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