Is Windows Phone Dying?

beauf

Developer preview is great for updates. Skips all the network faffing about for no reason.

Tbh I think android and Samsung are the worst for updates. Especially on their mid and low end phones.

Raskolnikov

beauf wrote: »

Developer preview is great for updates. Skips all the network faffing about for no reason.

Tbh I think android and Samsung are the worst for updates. Especially on their mid and low end phones.

True, but I bought factory unlocked, I should get the latest and greatest release automatically and quickly.

beauf

Raskolnikov wrote: »

This isn't the 90's anymore. Bought a 2012 Nexus 7 running 4.1 and within a day it was updated to the latest version of 4.4.4 over the air within a day. My wife has a 4s, it gets the latest version of iOS within days of release. I don't give a stuff about Joel Belfiore and excuses, if Apple and Google can get their users updated, then Microsoft should be able to too.

Nexus devices aren't the same as other android devices. So your not comparing the same things at all.

Dyr

Raskolnikov wrote: »

I feel like I have been thrown under a bus by Microsoft.

That's why I avoid windows devices, too many dead ends and u turns over the years leaving the users under the bus

beauf

Raskolnikov wrote: »

True, but I bought factory unlocked, I should get the latest and greatest release automatically and quickly.

You will.

They aren't officially released yet. You'd have to assume MS doesn't have the same mobile network in place as someone like Apple

kayos

Raskolnikov wrote: »

+
You actually illustrate my point perfectly. The iPhone 4 is 4.5 years old and is on the latest version of iOS. Microsoft can only ever dream of that kind of support.

Remember the Lumia 800? Less than 1 year old before its users were thrown under the bus thanks to non-upgradable Windows Phone 7.

In fairness one guy I know who is a devote apple fan pretty much never uses his iPhone 4 any more due to the simple fact the newest OS crippled it in terms of performance.

senordingdong

I think these things are fickle and circular.
People will tire of one or the other and try another.
Apples dominance will pass. Windows may rise, sooner or later, but it too will not last forever.

Fingleberries

beauf wrote: »

You will.

They aren't officially released yet. You'd have to assume MS doesn't have the same mobile network in place as someone like Apple

Very true. I'd say that Microsoft just needed to get the OS out there and weren't in a position to strong arm the Carriers (like Apple was with the iPhone) to try to keep control of the update process, and they (Microsoft) agreed to let carriers away with the carrier approval process for updates.

With the developer preview program, they are essentially getting around that limitation and can get the updates to peoples phones directly OTA.

Hopefully with 'Threshold' / WP9? they have completely gotten passed that Carrier enforced delay for release of updates and the releases will come to all phones when it is released by MS.

Raskolnikov

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I have literally half a dozen android devices at home that are stuck on really old builds. They have been forgotten about by Google, unless you are using a Google device like a Nexus you will get left behind.

I agree, a lot of the lower end Android stuff is never fit for anything but the landfill.

Raskolnikov

kayos wrote: »

In fairness one guy I know who is a devote apple fan pretty much never uses his iPhone 4 any more due to the simple fact the newest OS crippled it in terms of performance.

The iPhone 4 is over 4 years old. To put that in perspective, it came out at around the same time as the Nokia N8. I am sure on old hardware the OS is starting to lag, but that is exceptional support all the same.

theothernt

Fingleberries wrote: »

Hopefully with 'Threshold' / WP9? they have completely gotten passed that Carrier enforced delay for release of updates and the releases will come to all phones when it is released by MS.

The current process won't change. Carriers have apps and settings that need to be updated and tested for each release.

At most, the delay is about 2 months, and if updates are more frequent then a regular person isn't going to notice - they'll get 8.1 soon, followed by Update 1 in a couple of months, then maybe another update in a few months.

beauf

Raskolnikov wrote: »

I agree, a lot of the lower end Android stuff is never fit for anything but the landfill.

Actually it's more than just low end. Decent hardware as in dual core phones are made obsolete through the lack of updates.

MJohnston

Raskolnikov wrote: »

The iPhone 4 is over 4 years old. To put that in perspective, it came out at around the same time as the Nokia N8. I am sure on old hardware the OS is starting to lag, but that is exceptional support all the same.

WP7 to WP8 was an exceptional (in the unusual sense) update that required a complete rebuilding of the OS kernel. I was one of those "left behind" with a Lumia 800, but I was perfectly okay with that because (a) I got 7.5 AND then 7.8, and (b) because I understood what was required. Windows Phone 8 is now two years old, and there is every indication that WP8 will be constantly updateable beyond 8.1 through 9.0 because they no longer need to make any radical core changes. The Lumia 820 has already gotten 8.1, and 8.1 Update 1, and will continue to get updates, mark my words. And unless the hardware requirements suddenly inch above 512MB RAM (and I suspect this won't happen because MS love to make their OS MORE efficient, not less), then every single WP8 device will be upgradeable too.

MJohnston

theothernt wrote: »

The current process won't change. Carriers have apps and settings that need to be updated and tested for each release.

At most, the delay is about 2 months, and if updates are more frequent then a regular person isn't going to notice - they'll get 8.1 soon, followed by Update 1 in a couple of months, then maybe another update in a few months.

I'm on AT&T, probably one of the worst phone networks in the world, and even they have managed to get the Cyan (and therefore 8.1) update out in less than 2 months. I had the Developer Preview running anyway, but still, that's pretty good!

beauf

I would a good few complaints about WP. But updates isn't one of them. Not on the Dev Preview. Being able to bypass the network operator for updates is the very best thing about it.

Dyr

MJohnston wrote: »

WP7 to WP8 was an exceptional (in the unusual sense) update that required a complete rebuilding of the OS kernel. I was one of those "left behind" with a Lumia 800, but I was perfectly okay with that because (a) I got 7.5 AND then 7.8, and (b) because I understood what was required. Windows Phone 8 is now two years old, and there is every indication that WP8 will be constantly updateable beyond 8.1 through 9.0 because they no longer need to make any radical core changes. The Lumia 820 has already gotten 8.1, and 8.1 Update 1, and will continue to get updates, mark my words. And unless the hardware requirements suddenly inch above 512MB RAM (and I suspect this won't happen because MS love to make their OS MORE efficient, not less), then every single WP8 device will be upgradeable too.

You don't have to put left behind in quotation marks, its what they did.

Point being they burned the early adapters for their brave new windows phone world and they have a track record of burning their customers with turnabouts and abandoning strategies in their various forays into new markets.

Looks like their market is contracting anyway

http://www.theverge.com/2014/8/14/6003427/windows-phone-sales-decline-q2-2014-idc

KingOfFairview

Stuff like lock screen beta not being updated yet despite universal criticism of the lag just bugs me. They cannot possibly be unaware of this issue; what possible reason can there be for not at least acknowledging it?

Multiple irritants like this are what is screwing wp.

senordingdong

KingOfFairview wrote: »

Stuff like lock screen beta not being updated yet despite universal criticism of the lag just bugs me. They cannot possibly be unaware of this issue; what possible reason can there be for not at least acknowledging it?

Multiple irritants like this are what is screwing wp.

I decided to uninstall it, but it's still lagging.

nala_rinaldo

windows phone died when iphone came out. it’s ios and android now. who needs a phone that does not work well? and android is pretty much windows, it runs on exe things and stuff.

KingOfFairview

nala_rinaldo wrote: »

windows phone died when iphone came out. it’s ios and android now. who needs a phone that does not work well? and android is pretty much windows, it runs on exe things and stuff.

Huh?

theothernt

nala_rinaldo wrote: »

windows phone died when iphone came out. it’s ios and android now. who needs a phone that does not work well? and android is pretty much windows, it runs on exe things and stuff.

Please ignore the this ^^^^^^

(so uninformed, so many mistakes)

Davy

senordingdong wrote: »

I decided to uninstall it, but it's still lagging.

I removed it very soon after aswell.

I find whatsapp very slow now that what it was like before

senordingdong

Wonder why it's having that affect.
It's really starting to do my head in.

wilser

senordingdong wrote: »

I decided to uninstall it, but it's still lagging.

Think I had the same problem but then I turned kids corner on and everything went back to normal

senordingdong

wilser wrote: »

Think I had the same problem but then I turned kids corner on and everything went back to normal

You're beautiful. Thanks for that.

_Kaiser_

So just thought I'd update this thread a bit..

With nothing NEW coming out (I had 8.1 for ages on the DP) and my aforementioned concerns about where the platform is heading - articles like this don't help either where Nadella basically says that the device doesn't matter vs getting people on the platform - I started looking at the alternatives and just over a week ago I picked up a surprisingly cheap yet brand new and genuine Note 3

This post isn't to start slating WP by comparison (I'll leave that to the fanboy types that inhabit the comments sections of WPC/AC) but there are some immediate things that I've noticed that I feel MS/WP really needs to take on:

- Customisation even if it's only skin deep. For example I forgot how much I missed a notification LED and with an app I can have different colours for different events

- Removing limits on things like the number of toggles you can have or what those can be

- Fixing whatever it is that makes the same apps work better on Android (a platform fairly prone to lag or stability issues - including my Note 3 on occasion).
Why does Viber let me block annoying people on Android but not WP for example?
Lastpass is something I totally rely on but on WP it's a painful copy/paste exercise. The Android version now actively offers to fill in your details in whatever app/site you use that it has data for

- Why is it that MS apps work better on Android than WP? OneDrive seems a lot more easy to upload/download to in the various parts of the Android OS than on WP

- Get local companies to establish a presence (Hailo, AIB, Just Eat and others) even if it means paying them. Yes I know there's mobile sites and in some cases 3rd party wrappers, but I'm talking about fully functional equivalent official products

It's not just an "app gap" but HOW those apps work and compare to their counterparts on other platforms. That's where WP is lagging now IMO


Finally (and this one is hitting me on a professional level too), the focus on getting WP out there through cheap n cheerful devices has led to a big gap at the upper end of the market.

We have 40 WP's in the office here (mainly Samsung Ativ S but also 925 and 1320s) and I'm looking to refresh the older ones...

- The 925 is EOL as is the 1320 (amazingly as it's not even out that long - and there's no replacement for it either!)

- That really leaves the 930 but one we had developed a screen burn that for all the world looks like the wireless charger burned through the screen from underneath after about a fortnight. Another we have has the user complaining about how hot it gets (echoed by reports online)

My problem is that I CAN'T get anything else at that level. The HTC One variant isn't available, the 830 may or may not be stocked, and the 635 that was suggested as the next best thing by the carrier was brought back to me by the same guy with the 930 burn a day later because "it's crap. Wouldn't last pissing time in here" (his kids weren't impressed either apparently! No front camera and such.. not really relevant here, but interesting feedback all the same)

As a result I may have to go to Android in work as well because with only one (apparently flawed) flagship model in the 930 and a handful of cheapo models to pick from, I don't think I'll have any choice if this trend continues.

senordingdong

Well with an announcement of W9 seemingly around the corner, we may all be left in the dust as MS stubbornly drives on.

_Kaiser_

senordingdong wrote: »

Well with an announcement of W9 seemingly around the corner, we may all be left in the dust as MS stubbornly drives on.

I wonder though is that because it was already in the pipeline under the previous administration rather than a glowing endorsement of support for the future?

Again I've no idea.. I just think that unless WP9 is genuinely ground breaking, the gap will widen further and it IS A pity as I LIKE WP.. but it just doesn't seem to be evolving as quickly as it needs to. Most of what 8.1 introduced should have been there from the start really.

InTheTrees

Interesting tread. I'm coming to the end of my 2yr contract (previously on iphone) so it might be time to update my lumia 920 and i'm not sure where to go.

I dont need a lot from a phone. Basic phone functions, texting, and fairly common info apps (news, stocks, bank, traffic, etc).

I love the windows UI and the new updates, i've been enjoying Cortana too.

It sounds a little superficial but a major selling point for me is a well designed solid and dependable handset. I've loved the solidity and feel of the Lumia. I never needed to buy a case for it for instance and after two years its as solid as it was on day 1. I have grown attached to the quality of the camera on the 920 but certanly dont want a camera that bulges out of the case as I've seen on some newer lumias.

I'm not sure what I'll do. My contract is up in November so i have a while to look around.

MJohnston

InTheTrees wrote: »

Interesting tread. I'm coming to the end of my 2yr contract (previously on iphone) so it might be time to update my lumia 920 and i'm not sure where to go.

I dont need a lot from a phone. Basic phone functions, texting, and fairly common info apps (news, stocks, bank, traffic, etc).

I love the windows UI and the new updates, i've been enjoying Cortana too.

It sounds a little superficial but a major selling point for me is a well designed solid and dependable handset. I've loved the solidity and feel of the Lumia. I never needed to buy a case for it for instance and after two years its as solid as it was on day 1. I have grown attached to the quality of the camera on the 920 but certanly dont want a camera that bulges out of the case as I've seen on some newer lumias.

I'm not sure what I'll do. My contract is up in November so i have a while to look around.

I suspect the 830 would be the phone for you, it's supposed to feel incredibly well built and doesn't have any camera bulges. I've had a 1020 for over a year now, and while I feel the itch to upgrade, nothing on the market comes anywhere near the camera in mine so I've nothing to upgrade to! I did pick up a wee 530 for UK roaming on Monday, incredibly well built and functional device for 70 quid off contract!

senordingdong

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I wonder though is that because it was already in the pipeline under the previous administration rather than a glowing endorsement of support for the future?

Again I've no idea.. I just think that unless WP9 is genuinely ground breaking, the gap will widen further and it IS A pity as I LIKE WP.. but it just doesn't seem to be evolving as quickly as it needs to. Most of what 8.1 introduced should have been there from the start really.

Agreed.
I understand there were technical issues but WP7 was abandoned and all who took a chance on it were too.

As for W8-W9, I don't feel there is anything wrong with W8. Now they seem set to abandon it. It's no Vista ffs.
Also, I don't understand the desire to launch WP9, or Windows as I believe it'll be called, when there is do much to be addressed with WP8.

InTheTrees

MJohnston wrote: »

I suspect the 830 would be the phone for you, it's supposed to feel incredibly well built and doesn't have any camera bulges. I've had a 1020 for over a year now, and while I feel the itch to upgrade, nothing on the market comes anywhere near the camera in mine so I've nothing to upgrade to! I did pick up a wee 530 for UK roaming on Monday, incredibly well built and functional device for 70 quid off contract!

I like the look of that. Thanks. 10MP camera too, and that zeiss lens.

Which brings up a question about Lumia marketing. What going on with the model numbers?

First impression would be that an "830" would be a lesser model to a "920" but I know that isnt true.

Their model numbers seem to be all over the places which makes the choices even more confusing.

_Puma_

Ya I'm very cautious about what MS has in store for Windows Phone(Soon to be Windows 9.0). The fact they can justify dropping 2.5 billion on a 1 hit wonder game studio is pretty jarring in comparison to the investment WP has been getting.

The dismantling of Nokia, the best thing about Windows phone from their handsets to their 1st party apps, has left a pretty sour taste in my mouth. The Lumia 920 has genuinely being one of the best phones i've owned in terms of value for money and build quality. I cant see anything remotely close coming to the Lumia 920/1020 range again and I expect the build quality of the Lumia range to get worse as margins are squeezed.

So I guess the question is do people trust MS to drive on with W9 and improve on WP8. In my opinion W9 will see the complete unification of the desktop and Phone OS to run seamlessly together.

Is this a good thing? of Course!
Will it result in a better Phone experience compared to Android and Ios? I'm not so sure!

The Nexus 5's will be getting price drops in the next few weeks, I'll be keeping a keen eye on it as an upgrade to my 920.

_Kaiser_

InTheTrees wrote: »

I like the look of that. Thanks. 10MP camera too, and that zeiss lens.

Which brings up a question about Lumia marketing. What going on with the model numbers?

First impression would be that an "830" would be a lesser model to a "920" but I know that isnt true.

Their model numbers seem to be all over the places which makes the choices even more confusing.

Valid point..

As best I can tell they have it almost like series and generation:

920 = top-end 2nd gen
930 = top-end 3rd gen

820 = mid-range 2nd gen
830 = mid-range 3rd gen

720 = lower-mid, 2nd gen
730 = lower-mid, 3rd gen


DELL do something the same with the Latitude laptops...

E6420 = 6 series, 14", 2nd gen Core
E6430 = 6 series, 14", 3rd gen Core
E7240 = 7 series, 12", 4th gen Core

and so on... that's just my read but someone will probably throw in a model now that messes that up completely!

InTheTrees

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

and so on... that's just my read but someone will probably throw in a model now that messes that up completely!

Like the 1520? And the 1320?

_Kaiser_

InTheTrees wrote: »

Like the 1520? And the 1320?

Nope Cause the 13 and 15 is higher than the 9, but the generation stays the same


1520
1320
920
etc...

beauf

There is a huge difference between the desktop OS and the phone OS. I wouldn't be drawing parallels between them.

I'm at the low end of Windows Phone 520 and I won't be getting another one as the screen is terrible in sunlight. I'll probably switch to Android to get a better screen,without having to break the bank.

InTheTrees

MJohnston wrote: »

I suspect the 830 would be the phone for you, it's supposed to feel incredibly well built and doesn't have any camera bulges.

You got me on to browsing lumia's now and the 930 looks good.

20MP. Same lens.

beauf

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Valid point..

As best I can tell they have it almost like series and generation:

920 = top-end 2nd gen
930 = top-end 3rd gen

820 = mid-range 2nd gen
830 = mid-range 3rd gen

720 = lower-mid, 2nd gen
730 = lower-mid, 3rd gen


DELL do something the same with the Latitude laptops...

E6420 = 6 series, 14", 2nd gen Core
E6430 = 6 series, 14", 3rd gen Core
E7240 = 7 series, 12", 4th gen Core

and so on... that's just my read but someone will probably throw in a model now that messes that up completely!

520/530
620/630

Arguably the old models are better.

senordingdong

_Puma_ wrote: »

. I cant see anything remotely close coming to the Lumia 920/1020 range again and I expect the build quality of the Lumia range to get worse as margins are squeezed.

Been using the 930 for a few weeks now and not mad about it. May revert back to my 920.

_Puma_

beauf wrote: »

There is a huge difference between the desktop OS and the phone OS. I wouldn't be drawing parallels between them.

At the moment ya but I'm really talking about is the move to Windows 9 and the rumours of the unification of the Phone and Desktop OS. Will Windows phone 8 go the way of WP7? Will they drop support for WP8 altogether(In my opinion highly likely).

I'm thinking 2 years down the line here before purchasing another smartphone.

senordingdong

beauf wrote: »

I'm at the low end of Windows Phone 520 and I won't be getting another one as the screen is terrible in sunlight. I'll probably switch to Android to get a better screen,without having to break the bank.

520 is a low end model. Can hardly tar all the models with the same brush.

senordingdong

LIGHTNING wrote: »

There are already photos of some new devices they have dropped the "phone" part. The devices are just called Windows. Unification of the phone and desktop OS will be good for both devices in the longterm.

The same models have also stopped the Nokia logo and replace with a MS logo.

beauf

senordingdong wrote: »

520 is a low end model. Can hardly tar all the models with the same brush.

I can tar all similar models with a similar screen. The 530 has a worse screen, the 630 and 635 very similar. They are listed as having a clear black screen but its not the same as true clear black say on the 620 and older models. As such they all have a similar screen to the 520.

beauf

senordingdong wrote: »

Been using the 930 for a few weeks now and not mad about it. May revert back to my 920.

The 930 lacks the glance of the 920 too.

theothernt

LIGHTNING wrote: »

There are already photos of some new devices they have dropped the "phone" part. The devices are just called Windows. Unification of the phone and desktop OS will be good for both devices in the longterm.

That's been the plan for quite some time. Windows on phone, desktop, tablet and games console.

It's possible now to share code between all of those, but there are a number of differences. Windows 9 should smoothen out all those differences.

senordingdong wrote: »

The same models have also stopped the Nokia logo and replace with a MS logo.

The Nokia name was on loan, so it was always going to be phased out. "Lumia for Windows" is likely.

vynce

I don't think Windows Phone is dying, on the contrary, I think us WP users should enjoy these days of being a minority. I think it won't be that much longer until Windows is as common on Phones as it is on Desktops.

beauf

LIGHTNING wrote: »

There are already photos of some new devices they have dropped the "phone" part. The devices are just called Windows. Unification of the phone and desktop OS will be good for both devices in the longterm.

So much MS has promised never happened. So we'll wait and see. Screengrabs don't cut it.

senordingdong

vynce wrote: »

I don't think Windows Phone is dying, on the contrary, I think us WP users should enjoy these days of being a minority. I think it won't be that much longer until Windows is as common on Phones as it is on Desktops.

Well... Like so many others, I came into the fold on Nokias coat tails and was pleasantly surprised with WP, despite its flaws. But since coming on board I've been dumb founded with some of the decisions that MS make.
They seem to want to butcher all that was keeping them afloat.

beauf

vynce wrote: »

...I think it won't be that much longer until Windows is as common on Phones as it is on Desktops.

How so

http://www.computerworld.com/article/2476442/windows-phone-os/windows-phone-share-sinks-in-u-s--and-china--can-anything-save-this-os-.html