Is Windows Phone Dying?

InTheTrees

Within the last week ive looked at my ridiculously out of date lumia920 and thought this is fcuking nuts waiting for Microsoft to produce a flagship phone.

Presumably they are intentionally winding it down? It seems like its a Microsoft decision.

So ive started looking at android phones or maybe back to iphone again.

jimmynokia

InTheTrees wrote: »

Within the last week ive looked at my ridiculously out of date lumia920 and thought this is fcuking nuts waiting for Microsoft to produce a flagship phone.

Presumably they are intentionally winding it down? It seems like its a Microsoft decision.

So ive started looking at android phones or maybe back to iphone again.

I have been an avid user for years and own all the models.Since the 930/830 there has been no flagship and by the time they announce one and get it to market is another issue more people will have jumped ship,W10 will not have Cortana here on launch, Windows phone does not have it yet officially nor will be available soon,PLUS Cortana will probably land on Android and iOS before it lands proper on WP..

What was announced during the week is just the second last phase of what's to come MORE CUTS.
MS just bought Nokia handset divison so they could not go Android,this was clear when they shelved the Nokia X line..Nokia will be back to bite them in the ass next year....

Bayberry

InTheTrees wrote: »

Within the last week ive looked at my ridiculously out of date lumia920 and thought this is fcuking nuts waiting for Microsoft to produce a flagship phone.

Presumably they are intentionally winding it down? It seems like its a Microsoft decision.

So ive started looking at android phones or maybe back to iphone again.

What sort of a moron would launch a major flagship device just months before the OS that it needs to support it is released?

What sort of a moron would buy a newly released high end Windows 8 device without Continuum or Hello support today? I can deal with dropping €200 for 640XL today, but there's no way I'd part with flagship money today for a phone designed for WP8, with Win10 Mobile just a few months away.

Yeah, Win10 Mobile has been a long time coming, but my current phone hasn't stopped working, and there haven't been any new features on the other platforms in the last two years that made me say "Wow, I want that!".

beauf

I'd have to agree. I think WP10 will come too late to save it now. The market has moved on and so will their user base. I've had WP for about two years, I'm tired of the low quality apps, and WP even after two years still feels like beta software.

senordingdong

beauf wrote: »

I'd have to agree. I think WP10 will come too late to save it now. The market has moved on and so will their user base. .

I can't for the life of me figure out their strategy.

It's as though they are assisting a slow, painful, expensive death.

beauf

Bayberry wrote: »

...Yeah, Win10 Mobile has been a long time coming, but my current phone hasn't stopped working, and there haven't been any new features on the other platforms in the last two years that made me say "Wow, I want that!".

I've been waiting two years for a browser and timer that works. Might be different on a higher end phone but on my 520 things like browsing, youTube and such are very unreliable. Probably the 512MB but things are dumped out of RAM far too quickly. You have to relaunch, refresh apps, websites, all the time.

When I pick up someone else old iPhone or Android, its a different world. Everything works. Though I miss the speed of WP for basic telephony.

beauf

jimmynokia wrote: »

...MS just bought Nokia handset divison so they could not go Android,this was clear when they shelved the Nokia X line..Nokia will be back to bite them in the ass next year....

I think so too. Nokia gambled on MS. MS didn't deliver. Nokia wanted out. MS bought them. Nokia wants to go back to the market, having escaped what it sees as MS noose.

senordingdong

beauf wrote: »

I think so too. Nokia gambled on MS. MS didn't deliver. Nokia wanted out. MS bought them. Nokia wants to go back to the market, having escaped what it sees as MS noose.

I'd be happy to keep using WP on any new Nokia handsets

InTheTrees

Bayberry wrote: »

Yeah, Win10 Mobile has been a long time coming, but my current phone hasn't stopped working,

Mines scratched and dented. And every time I look at it I silently insult MS.

I signed a 2 year contract, after 2 years MS had nothing to replace it. Pfft. Marketing Fail.

SO I waited until Spring. Now Summer. Now autumn.

Now they're laying off their phone staff.

Amazing incompetence. The AOL/Sega school of business. They need to get their sh!t together.

jimmynokia

senordingdong wrote: »

I'd be happy to keep using WP on any new Nokia handsets

That wont be happening.

gman2k

I've recently left WP and gone to Android. I was on WP since WP7, and every good thing was just around the corner or going to happen, but it just hasn't.
The poor quality apps, very infrequent updates, and missing apps and the fact that new apps will not be written for WP did it for me in the end. Instagram beta ffs.....
WP is dead in the US, with the younger market in particular due to no Snapchat.
The joke at the moment is the people trying to spin the dumping of Nokia as good news....
It's a pity, as an OS it's very useable and stable, but a smartphone without the best of apps is pointless.

Dyr

I have no confidence in any new initiatives MS put out in the personal or business market, they roll something out on a grand scale, try force their users to adopt it and then decide to change strategy so they abandon it and leave everyone high and dry

beauf

Isn't that the truth.

Do-more

beauf wrote: »

I've been waiting two years for a browser and timer that works. Might be different on a higher end phone but on my 520 things like browsing, youTube and such are very unreliable. Probably the 512MB but things are dumped out of RAM far too quickly. You have to relaunch, refresh apps, websites, all the time.

Don't think it is a RAM issue, I thought so too when using a 635 but still have the same problem with daily freezing and crashing of IE on my 640XL which has 1GB RAM.

Tried other browsers the latest one being Maxthon and whilst it loads websites faster it is having even more problems than IE when it comes to crashing.

Edge/Spartan can't come quick enough for me and I hope they will solve the problem otherwise I will really regret moving back to WP from Android.

The app gap isn't a big issue for me but FFS browsing the web should be a core competence of any smartphone.

beauf

Can't disagree. In many cases you don't need the app if theres a decent website. But if the browser is flaky your stuffed. Whats really annoying is that when it crashes it has not stored where you were. So you have to search for it again. That gets old very fast.

senordingdong

jimmynokia wrote: »

That wont be happening.

How come?

My understanding of Nokias last statement was that they will be strictly a hardware manufacturer, for whoever wants their handsets.
I took that to mean some sort of open source plan, instead of returning to one os...or returning to Symbian.

Bayberry

Do-more wrote: »

Don't think it is a RAM issue, I thought so too when using a 635 but still have the same problem with daily freezing and crashing of IE on my 640XL which has 1GB RAM.

I have half a dozen IE tabs open on my 640 at the moment, including this one, and I'm just not seeing these problems. I occasionally try to access a business website that is obviously trying to use flash to do something, or has some buttons that just won't click, but I'm not encountering any major problems with the browser on the phone. Granted, 80% of my mobile browsing is restricted to a dozen or so very mainstream sites (amazon, rte, IMDB, Wikipedia, Bing, BBC, independent.ie, etc) which are big enough to have mobile friendly sites, but I'm surprised at you reports of browser problems.

Edit: I just remembered that I stopped accessing broadsheet.ie on my phone because it would crash the browser - but I gave up accessing on my laptop too, because it stopped being interesting.

theothernt

senordingdong wrote: »

How come?

My understanding of Nokias last statement was that they will be strictly a hardware manufacturer, for whoever wants their handsets.
I took that to mean some sort of open source plan, instead of returning to one os...or returning to Symbian.

Which statement, they have no hardware manufacturing?

_Kaiser_

MS have stated that they're no longer going to try to grow the phone business but instead focus on the Windows ecosystem - this has been obvious anyway with things like Office, OneDrive and even Cortana being made available on other platforms. Medium-long term I reckon they'll just make the WP OS available to any manufacturer that wants it in the same way as they do the Desktop version.. but that doesn't bode well for WP as a platform IMO.. how many non-Lumia handsets are there? How many are generally available and actively supported? How many networks stock them in shops?

I'm also not convinced that Win 10 will improve things to be honest. I've been trying out the desktop versions for months now, and while there are some improvements, the much-hyped new/returning Start Menu is IMO still inferior to the "Classic" Win 7 one, the UI generally is now an even more awkward mix of new elements, Win 8 holdovers and Win 7/XP legacy stuff, and I'm not convinced it'll be ready anyway by the July 29th release date. WP10 is of course still months away from release so maybe that extra time will help.

It'll be interesting to see what the business/Enterprise market makes of it, although I have a feeling many will stay put with Win 7 (having only finished migrations relatively recently) which won't help the take up of the new OS/platform. Personally I've rolled back to Win 8.1, installed Start 8, and will sit tight for a few months until I see how they refine it further and what 3rd parties make of it.

However, all that said the new Continuum feature looks very interesting. Having a full PC/laptop in a phone would be great... but, I'm guessing it won't run x86 programs so you'll be left with your Desktop and MS's app store.. haven't we seen that before (Surface RT) and how well did that work out? Still maybe with the Universal Apps platform more 3rd parties will port their stuff to it?

CatInABox

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

MS have stated that they're no longer going to try to grow the phone business but instead focus on the Windows ecosystem - this has been obvious anyway with things like Office, OneDrive and even Cortana being made available on other platforms. Medium-long term I reckon they'll just make the WP OS available to any manufacturer that wants it in the same way as they do the Desktop version.. but that doesn't bode well for WP as a platform IMO.. how many non-Lumia handsets are there? How many are generally available and actively supported? How many networks stock them in shops?

I'm also not convinced that Win 10 will improve things to be honest. I've been trying out the desktop versions for months now, and while there are some improvements, the much-hyped new/returning Start Menu is IMO still inferior to the "Classic" Win 7 one, the UI generally is now an even more awkward mix of new elements, Win 8 holdovers and Win 7/XP legacy stuff, and I'm not convinced it'll be ready anyway by the July 29th release date. WP10 is of course still months away from release so maybe that extra time will help.

It'll be interesting to see what the business/Enterprise market makes of it, although I have a feeling many will stay put with Win 7 (having only finished migrations relatively recently) which won't help the take up of the new OS/platform. Personally I've rolled back to Win 8.1, installed Start 8, and will sit tight for a few months until I see how they refine it further and what 3rd parties make of it.

However, all that said the new Continuum feature looks very interesting. Having a full PC/laptop in a phone would be great... but, I'm guessing it won't run x86 programs so you'll be left with your Desktop and MS's app store.. haven't we seen that before (Surface RT) and how well did that work out? Still maybe with the Universal Apps platform more 3rd parties will port their stuff to it?

Well, the WP OS is already free for anyone that wants to create a phone, and as manufacturers have to pay Microsoft to make Android phones, I think it's safe to say that WP is dead as a third party platform.

It will continue as a Microsoft initiative though, much like the Surface has once they calibrated their expectations for it. Originally Microsoft (comically) thought that the Surfaces (Pro and RT) would wipe the floor with the iPad, but now that they're properly targeting their customers I think that they're happy with it being a Billion dollar part of their business.

Same will happen with their phones now I think, target them at the right audience at the right price and it'll be a respectable business for them.

Again, it's the App Gap that's the major issue, but Microsoft have made some great moves in trying to build bridges to get dev to move there apps onto the universal apps without much effort. I think Windows 10 will live and die by the success of that program and it's a total toss-up right now.

_Kaiser_

CatInABox wrote: »

Again, it's the App Gap that's the major issue, but Microsoft have made some great moves in trying to build bridges to get dev to move there apps onto the universal apps without much effort. I think Windows 10 will live and die by the success of that program and it's a total toss-up right now.

I don't know if it's so much an App Gap (although yes there are still a few key ones missing - especially local Irish apps) as much as the point that the same apps don't work as well as their Android/IOS counterparts. Whether that's down to MS not giving devs the necessary access to the system level, or limitations of the OS itself I don't know, but the result is that the platform as a whole suffers.

At the moment I'm back using a Lumia 1320 as my office handset and a Note 4 as my personal device and there's still a lot to like about the 1320 even over the 930 I was using beforehand (except maybe the placement of the power switch as I keep inadvertently turning it off when on a call) such as the performance, the clean UI and the outstanding battery life.. but an OS is only as good as the applications/apps that run on it and unfortunately on that front the Android has it beat in almost every way.

As you say, it's a toss up whether Universal Apps and Win 10 will change/save things .. personally I hope it does as, as above, it would be cool to have a consistent environment between desktop/laptop, and phone.. but we'll have to wait and see.. at least with the ecosystem being cross-platform there's nothing to lose by sticking with/taking a punt on a new handset anyway. Even if they do quit making them, your stuff will still be there on Android/IOS

CatInABox

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I don't know if it's so much an App Gap (although yes there are still a few key ones missing - especially local Irish apps) as much as the point that the same apps don't work as well as their Android/IOS counterparts. Whether that's down to MS not giving devs the necessary access to the system level, or limitations of the OS itself I don't know, but the result is that the platform as a whole suffers.

At the moment I'm back using a Lumia 1320 as my office handset and a Note 4 as my personal device and there's still a lot to like about the 1320 even over the 930 I was using beforehand (except maybe the placement of the power switch as I keep inadvertently turning it off when on a call) such as the performance, the clean UI and the outstanding battery life.. but an OS is only as good as the applications/apps that run on it and unfortunately on that front the Android has it beat in almost every way.

As you say, it's a toss up whether Universal Apps and Win 10 will change/save things .. personally I hope it does as, as above, it would be cool to have a consistent environment between desktop/laptop, and phone.. but we'll have to wait and see.. at least with the ecosystem being cross-platform there's nothing to lose by sticking with/taking a punt on a new handset anyway. Even if they do quit making them, your stuff will still be there on Android/IOS

Yeah, once most of the main Apps that were missing turned up, people bagan to realise that there was a vast gulf in quality between the platforms. Thus the "App Gap" now refers to both the lack of apps, and the gap in quality.

Do-more

Bayberry wrote: »

I have half a dozen IE tabs open on my 640 at the moment, including this one, and I'm just not seeing these problems. I occasionally try to access a business website that is obviously trying to use flash to do something, or has some buttons that just won't click, but I'm not encountering any major problems with the browser on the phone. Granted, 80% of my mobile browsing is restricted to a dozen or so very mainstream sites (amazon, rte, IMDB, Wikipedia, Bing, BBC, independent.ie, etc) which are big enough to have mobile friendly sites, but I'm surprised at you reports of browser problems.

Edit: I just remembered that I stopped accessing broadsheet.ie on my phone because it would crash the browser - but I gave up accessing on my laptop too, because it stopped being interesting.

I get the problems on a wide range of sites but from your list independent.ie would be one in particular.

But it can happen with just about any site and has even happened on boards.ie so not just "data heavy" sites.

Mostly the screen just freezes and IE becomes unresponsive to any button press so I have to go back to the home screen and select IE again and it will reopen with a blank tab.

bnt

I just gave m.independent.ie and www.broadsheet.ie a go, in Edge on my Lumia 640 running the latest W10 build. Both seem OK, but they have inline ads. I still wish Mozilla would bring out Firefox for W10, so I could make use of AdBlock, NoScript etc. I think I'm justified in blocking things, thanks to the laziness of some webmasters who casually allow 3rd-party JavaScript to be triggered from their sites. I would never try to load e.g. Huffington Post without such protection.

jimmynokia

With the recent news of upcoming phone's and one or two perhaps going to AT&T ONLY, Microsoft have clearly learned nothing.
The MS BAND another example, only available via PC World etc, not even on Irish store.
I do have hopes but not much, been an avid fan and supporter for year's as the name suggests but MS seems to be killing this that and the other and giving Android and iOS core apps, fine this sells services to the most popular OS's but get nothing in return, universal apps will not save them.
We are all aware of recent news and the WP fans that are here must see Satya hasn't got a clue about mobile and his continued focus on cloud and mobile is all it seems to be.
There's been no flagship in almost two year and too many overlapping device's which was becoming like Samsung, Yaya great sells loads of cheap entry models and loose a truck load while the hard core user's are left in limbo.

Was in a meteor store today and some guy bought two 535s, I was in shock and actually said to myself WTF are you doing. We do have an estimated 10% market share here, but there's been no push from anyone even MS,their PR company are not much good either, negativity from some journalists (those that are WP fans and regulars here know who the offenders are ) which gives bad perception imo.
I'm limited to say some things here but really can MS turn around in mobile? They bought Nokia and screwed it up lost a bomb, Nokia made Lumia and WP to what it is today, superb build quality on the 830/930 and that but MS have not delivered after. I still say they bought Nokia to prevent an Android onslaught, killing the X series was proof albeit forked but must of scared em..

unkel

jimmynokia wrote: »

There's been no flagship in almost two year

What about the upcoming 950 and 950XL?

InTheTrees

I'm starting to see a lot of MS ads for w10 on Tv, so I expect the marketing push is just starting up.

jimmynokia

@UNKEL. Point accepted BUT given the announcement date, I'll be there at the event , and the time it's actually launched here in Ireland.??
Past history which I've never been wrong on proves my point here. I'm hopeful for a better availability factor..

jimmynokia

@ In the trees. Seen some too, BUT they again silently release products on the Irish store and tell nobody there is more than you think that's available. There is sweet F all in retail.

beauf

Whats keeping Windows Phone going is the bang for buck at the low end. The speed is great on lower end hardware. But then MS release a bunch of low end phones which IMO really are a step too cheap like the 435/535. Looking at them, and seeing phones like Vodafone 6 Prime and 6 Prime Ultra in hand. I think Windows Phone struggle to retain their existing low end customers.

Then again my near 2yr old 520 still flies for day to day stuff. I can update it to 10. (even if it is slow). But our old Samsungs are slow and filled with useless bloat and stuck on an ancient version of Android. But the lack of some apps on the WP is really annoying.

jimmynokia

Same here my daughter loves WP and uses it as I've the HD 10 screen sharing puc, calling it a puc cause it looks like one, she was introduced to WP when she was 4, she's 7 soon and is a Wizz on it , my own fault, but we also have chromecast etc but she keeps using WP for games etc. For your money now, nothing beats the Vodafone 6 plus simple as that, even gives google's moto phone's a good run for money.

Fingleberries

beauf wrote: »

Whats keeping Windows Phone going is the bang for buck at the low end. The speed is great on lower end hardware. But then MS release a bunch of low end phones which IMO really are a step too cheap like the 435/535. Looking at them, and seeing phones like Vodafone 6 Prime and 6 Prime Ultra in hand. I think Windows Phone struggle to retain their existing low end customers.

Then again my near 2yr old 520 still flies for day to day stuff. I can update it to 10. (even if it is slow). But our old Samsungs are slow and filled with useless bloat and stuck on an ancient version of Android. But the lack of some apps on the WP is really annoying.

Microsoft have been making big progress in the very small margin low-end market. The thing is, that it seemed like every other week there was another Lumia with middling spec being released so there was nothing to write home about.

Luckily, it looks like Microsoft is trying to pull itself out of that rut. With it's 950 / 950 XL (still unannounced) they're going for a premium market (probably more HTC One than iPhone) and will try to focus their efforts there until early next year when the low-end models will come out.

Also, the fact that the rumoured 650, 750, 850 models have been canned to prevent confusion will help sort things out.

This is essentially trying to mimic the Surface model (not surprising since Panos Panay is now in charge of the phone division too). Make a reference model that the other OEMs can try and follow, all the while not stepping on the toes of the same OEMs you want to make their own phones. There's no way that any other OEM would seriously have tried Windows 10 Mobile with Microsoft owning 95% of the handset market.

I'm sure some OEMs are only looking at Windows Mobile now a) because it's free for them and b) it can probably be used to offset some of the licencing fees that Microsoft get from them anyway for making Android Handsets.

All this being said, the regular mantra of Windows Phone enthusiasts, Del Boy Trotter and Liverpool fans applies: "This time next year..."

senordingdong

I think MS need to release a surface phone line to be their new flagship, and keep the Lumia name for the low/middle range.

Seeking the Lumia name back to Nokia might be an idea but there's alot of sentiment that suggests the Lumia name is toxic.

beauf

I would have thought it was Windows Phone os that's toxic not Lumia.As the hardware was always fine

senordingdong

Perhaps it all is, name association.

But more than a few held hopes for Nokia quality hardware hosting android.

yosser hughes

I've had a Windows Phone for three or four years now. I like it, it goes well with my PC, I love one drive etc.
However having been a defender of Windows Phones in the past I'm on the verge of switching. Primarily because of apps. Pretty major companies don't have windows apps, Ryanair for example.

Tell me why I should stick with it, or not.
I hate the hassle of changing but as I say I'm on the verge.
Tell me why you have a Windows phone and are keeping it.

Outkast_IRE

yosser hughes wrote: »

I've had a Wibdows Phone for three or four years now. I like it, it goes well with my PC, I love one drive etc.
However having been a defender of Windows Phones in the past I'm on the verge of switching. Primarily because of apps. Pretty major companies don't have windows apps, Ryanair for example.

Tell me why I should stick with it, or not.
I hate the hassle of changing but as I say I'm on the verge.
Tell me why you have a Windows phone and are keeping it.

I think the unified windows 10 will help turn the corner and introduce more apps, also microsoft have made a big push on being easily able to convert apple/android apps to work on windows.

To be fair, i find most consumer apps to be pretty useless in comparison to their main websites.

I am hoping for a good announcement on new windows 10 phones soon, i am getting a new phone in december and if they havent launched by then i will move away completely.

beauf

yosser hughes wrote: »

...Tell me why I should stick with it, or not.
I hate the hassle of changing but as I say I'm on the verge.
Tell me why you have a Windows phone and are keeping it.

I'm the same on the fence. I like WP but MS just have let it get too far behind. The OS, (and the browser) simply isn't where it should be after all this time.

beauf

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

....To be fair, i find most consumer apps to be pretty useless in comparison to their main websites. ...

Which would be fine if WP had decent browser. It doesn't.

Mine has a lovely trait of crashing then forgetting completely where you've been for the last 20 mins. Its just painful to use much of the time.

senordingdong

yosser hughes wrote: »

. Primarily because of apps. Pretty major companies don't have windows apps, Ryanair for example.

I never understood this argument.
Most of the apps are just cobbled together shortcuts to a mobile site.
Anything you need can still be accessed through your browser.

beauf

Even if the browser was decent which it isn't. Usually an App is a better experience than a generic website, on a phone. Imo.

MJohnston

The browser in Windows 10 is fantastic on mobile. Google are heavily pushing web apps, so I think it'll be a couple of years and native apps will have fallen by the wayside.