Looting and Rioting in St. Louis (Merged)

darkpagandeath · 14-08-2014 03:29PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

Whitey at it again I see!

Do we know it's a white cop ? Could be African American or a Latino cop.

suicide_circus · 14-08-2014 03:31PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Latino cop.

Like Robo cop but wearing a poncho

karma_ · 14-08-2014 03:31PM

Ush1 wrote: »

You either support mob justice or the democratic process?

You likely don't even realise the irony inherent within, which in itself is amusing.

Ush1 · 14-08-2014 03:42PM

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

It's poor because if someone is saying "This guy is a murderer and we have no faith in the judicial process to do anything about it" and your response is "He's not a murderer because the judicial process hasn't found him to be guilty" then there is no worthwhile dialogue happening, you're not going to get through to anyone, and it's a completely pointless statement in that context.

If that's what anonymous believe they are obviously no better than what they claim to oppose.

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

You started the semantic argument with the line "Someone is a murderer when they are convicted in a court."

That's not semantic.

Maximus Alexander · 14-08-2014 03:44PM

Ush1 wrote: »

If that's what anonymous believe they are obviously no better than what they claim to oppose.

That's not semantic.

I don't think either of us will end up feeling enlightened as a result of this discussion so I'll leave it there. Carry on.

Tabnabs · 14-08-2014 03:46PM

Take a look at her hair, it's real
And if you don't believe what I say, just feel
I'm gonna lock her up in a trunk
So no big hunk can steal her away from me

*shudders*

Maybe the Living Doll thing was literal?! :eek:

Billy86 · 14-08-2014 03:52PM

Ush1 wrote: »

If that's what anonymous believe they are obviously no better than what they claim to oppose.

Ush1 · 14-08-2014 03:53PM

Reekwind wrote: »

Ugh. Let's do a very simple thought experiment.

I murder a man. Kill him stone dead with an axe in the back of the neck. I steal his wallet and move on. Yet I get away with the crime. I am not arrested, I do not go to court, I am not found guilty of the crime of murder. I die in bed many years later having never being charged with a single crime. Am I a murderer?

No you aren't as I stated murder is a legal term. You could call yourself a killer more accurately. What is your opinion on my "thought experiment" as you put it?

Do you think a doctor that snaps a babies neck accidently with a forceps during childbirth is a murderer?

Reekwind wrote: »

But let's add another dimension:

Another man is charged with the murder that I committed. He's in the wrong place at the wrong time and is arrested. He is incorrectly found guilty in a court of law and sentenced to life in prison for murder. Yet he has never killed anyone. Is he a murderer?

According to your legalistic logic, which denies murder as an exclusively 'legal term' I'm not a murderer and the other man is. Is that correct?

.....yes, murder is a legal term and I seriously doubt Anonymous have the full facts of this case.

karma_ · 14-08-2014 03:57PM

Ush1 wrote: »

No you aren't as I stated murder is a legal term. You could call yourself a killer more accurately. What is your opinion on my "thought experiment" as you put it?

Do you think a doctor that snaps a babies neck accidently with a forceps during childbirth is a murderer?

.....yes, murder is a legal term and I seriously doubt Anonymous have the full facts of this case.

Jaysus, engage in semantics much?

LOL

blackwhite · 14-08-2014 03:58PM

Reekwind wrote: »

You mean aside from letting the boy's parents know who killed their son and helping the community piece together what actually happened?

You mean letting the family know who an internet lynch mob think is responsible, and helping the community identify someone to string up without a trial.

I mean, it's not like an internet lynch mob hasn't ever placed blame on an innocent person before:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2013/04/25/boston-bombing-social-media-student-brown-university-reddit/2112309/

karma_ · 14-08-2014 03:59PM

blackwhite wrote: »

You mean letting the family know who an internet lynch mob think is responsible, and helping the community identify someone to string up without a trial.

I mean, it's not like an internet lynch mob hasn't ever placed blame on an innocent person before:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2013/04/25/boston-bombing-social-media-student-brown-university-reddit/2112309/

Not like the judicial system hasn;t ever placed blame on an innocent person before.

(See what I did there?)

Ush1 · 14-08-2014 03:59PM

Reekwind wrote: »

You mean aside from letting the boy's parents know who killed their son and helping the community piece together what actually happened?

Yes because exactly who did what here is common knowledge isn't it, that we have elected Anonymous to over see.

Egginacup · 14-08-2014 04:00PM

Rasheed wrote: »

I can't even imagine what his family are going through. The shock, hurt and grief of losing your son in such a violent, pointless way and then have to read lies and half truths put there to discredit him. God help them.

The public are supposed to know what their government are doing. That's a fundamental trait of a constitutional republic. So much for that in Ferguson!
The name of the cop who did the shooting is being witheld. The coroner's report that shows how many times he was shot is being witheld. The police have confiscated mobile phone and CCTV footage of the crime. Washington Post and Huffington Post journalists have been attacked by the police in a McDONALDS as they tried to get their stories in. And they're tear-gassing people including one guy on the lawn of his own property!!

And Putin is a tyrant?

blackwhite · 14-08-2014 04:06PM

karma_ wrote: »

Not like the judicial system hasn't ever placed blame on an innocent person before.

(See what I did there?)

The justice system has checks and balances in place, and generally has accountability for any mistakes made.

The internet lynch mob will simply move onto whatever grabs their attention span next, without a second thought for any innocents that they leave in their wake.

Thargor · 14-08-2014 04:09PM

Why hasn't there been an effective non lethal round for pistols developed yet? Tazers are sh1t and also one-shot, pepper spray is a joke for most threats, you'd think in 2014 there would be an alternative to firing a blob of lead through peoples organs to stop them, tranquilizer darts even (probably not practical).

Egginacup · 14-08-2014 04:17PM

P_1 wrote: »

What sort of training are police given in the States? Clearly it isn't enough particularly when you consider that they're armed as heavily as soldiers in most armies.

They are using equipment that is surplus from Iraq and Afghanistan. MRAP vehicles, heavy machine guns, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if you see Abrams battle tanks around the streets soon.

http://www.policestateusa.com/

karma_ · 14-08-2014 04:20PM

blackwhite wrote: »

The justice system has checks and balances in place, and generally has accountability for any mistakes made.

The internet lynch mob will simply move onto whatever grabs their attention span next, without a second thought for any innocents that they leave in their wake.

Funny that those 'checks and balances' don't stop it from happening eh?

Egginacup · 14-08-2014 04:21PM

ThisRegard wrote: »

They can deploy SWAT to raids on homes where they believe the tenants will be armed and have reinforced doors, windows etc on their houses. I don't think it's that unusual. The guys break their way in, secure everything and head off home then to let the other lads deal with why they raided the place.

Do they fcuk!!
They smash the place to pieces, throw flashbang grenades all over the place. Recently they threw one into a baby's cot causing 3rd degree burns on 70% of the infant's body. They routinely just shoot dogs for no reason. Half the time it's not even the right address.

blackwhite · 14-08-2014 04:22PM

karma_ wrote: »

Funny that those 'checks and balances' don't stop it from happening eh?

Nice strawmanning - at least you've shown exactly how useful a contribution you want to make to the thread.

Using your own logic, why didn't the internet lynch-mob stop it from happening?

Killer Wench · 14-08-2014 04:23PM

Ush1 wrote: »

Scumbag thing to do, no investigation done. Anonymous weren't democratically elected and are trying to act as judge and jury.

I don't think it is playing judge and jury. The PD had originally announced their intention to release his name. Hours before the press conference, they cancelled it, stating the officer needs time to find a safe haven.

hatrickpatrick · 14-08-2014 04:24PM

blackwhite wrote: »

The justice system has checks and balances in place, and generally has accountability for any mistakes made.

LOL.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Kelly_Thomas#Criminal_trial

Watch the video for yourself if you have the stomach for it, look at the picture of Thomas' face on the Wikipedia page, read the eyewitness accounts, and come back and tell us that not a single one of those cops should have gone to prison.

Stories of the cops killing unarmed people unarmed people are endemic in the states over the last few years - as are subsequent stories of them receiving absolutely no criminal convictions whatsoever for the aforementioned killings.

Ush1 · 14-08-2014 04:26PM

Killer Wench wrote: »

I don't think it is playing judge and jury. The PD had originally announced their intention to release his name. Hours before the press conference, they cancelled it, stating the officer needs time to find a safe haven.

Not that I'm entertaining that argument that it isn't a risk to his safety, but why else would Anonymous "threaten" to release it?

Egginacup · 14-08-2014 04:27PM

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

F*cking hell, they look like something out of a dystopian movie or video game.

I mentioned this 5 years ago and I was called a tinfoiler, tree-hugging, pinko who should get on my knees and kiss the boots of the brave cops who are keeping me "safe"

blackwhite · 14-08-2014 04:27PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

LOL.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Kelly_Thomas#Criminal_trial

Watch the video for yourself if you have the stomach for it, look at the picture of Thomas' face on the Wikipedia page, read the eyewitness accounts, and come back and tell us that not a single one of those cops should have gone to prison.

Stories of the cops killing unarmed people unarmed people are endemic in the states over the last few years - as are subsequent stories of them receiving absolutely no criminal convictions whatsoever for the aforementioned killings.

So you think an unidentifiable group of people online posting the name of who they THINK is responsible, and sending a lynch mob around is preferable?

The justice system isn't perfect, and mistakes will happen.

I'd still much prefer what we have to a system where an unidentifiable person with access to a computer posts up a name and address, and the mob goes and strings them up.

hatrickpatrick · 14-08-2014 04:31PM

blackwhite wrote: »

Using your own logic, why didn't the internet lynch-mob stop it from happening?

Neither the internet lynch mob nor the justice system could have stopped it from happening. However, the lynch mob would not be necessary if the justice system could be relied upon to properly deal with police officers who murder unarmed civilians.

This case does not exist in a vacuum. The rage resulting from this is not the result of this case but the result of case after case over the last 3-4 years, from peaceful Occupy protesters getting the sh!t kicked out of them to unarmed civilians getting shot because cops lose their tempers, and the common thread tying all of these cases together being that not a single one has results in any cops receiving criminal convictions.

Killer Wench · 14-08-2014 04:31PM

Ush1 wrote: »

Not that I'm entertaining that argument that it isn't a risk to his safety, but why else would Anonymous "threaten" to release it?

I think they perceive it as further attempts to cover up the truth.

Egginacup · 14-08-2014 04:31PM

Ush1 wrote: »

Scumbag thing to do, no investigation done. Anonymous weren't democratically elected and are trying to act as judge and jury.

I'm not so sure. If the police use scumbag tactics like planting drugs or beating confessions out of people to secure convictions however dubious then they should get a taste of their own medicine.

Ush1 · 14-08-2014 04:33PM

Killer Wench wrote: »

I think they perceive it as further attempts to cover up the truth.

That's not answering my question. You said yourself the police held off on releasing his name to protect his safety.

karma_ · 14-08-2014 04:33PM

blackwhite wrote: »

Nice strawmanning - at least you've shown exactly how useful a contribution you want to make to the thread.

Using your own logic, why didn't the internet lynch-mob stop it from happening?

Strawmanning?

See this is why I don't bother engaging in any meaningful way on AH. The thing is, and you would have realised this had you been reading... I haven't made an argument on this topic, I have simply responded to some of the more idiotic points that have been raised.

hatrickpatrick · 14-08-2014 04:36PM

blackwhite wrote: »

So you think an unidentifiable group of people online posting the name of who they THINK is responsible, and sending a lynch mob around is preferable?

I never said I supported Anonymous' actions nor did I defend the posting of inaccurate information which if true is a disgrace. I merely outlined why it's happening. People are turning to such means because they have lost faith in the justice system to hold cops criminally liable for assaulting civilians.

The justice system isn't perfect, and mistakes will happen.

That's where we differ. You regard these cases as mistakes, I personally regard them as a poisonous deference to authority which carries the mindset that the cops can do no wrong. The same sh!te happened here in the early months of 2014 and we all know where that led us.

Come on, you have to admit that when repeated, documented and filmed cases of obvious police brutality are not resulting in any cops serving jail time, it has to be viewed not just as a series of mistakes but as a series of deliberate blind eyes being turned to cops who break the law. They are not "mistakes", they are the result of a cultural immunity granted to certain sections of society, and until that changes, vigilantes - whether justified or not - will continue to exist and will continue to be supported by vast swathes of people who believe there is no one else to turn to.

I'd still much prefer what we have to a system where an unidentifiable person with access to a computer posts up a name and address, and the mob goes and strings them up.

And I would agree with you, but consider for a moment if you were a relative of this guy and you knew that his death was the latest in a series of such incidents with an almost 100% guarantee of the perpetrator getting away without any punishment whatsoever - both of us, in that scenario, might feel a little differently.

Looting and Rioting in St. Louis (Merged)

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