I need feminism because...

seenitall · 11-08-2014 03:35PM

Pfffft, that Robert Webb, what a White Knight... he must be whipped or something...

:P

eviltwin · 11-08-2014 07:27PM

Scarinae wrote: »

Men can definitely get involved in a feminist conversation. Did anyone see Robert Webb's piece in the New Statesman last week? I only saw it today when it was mentioned on thejournal.ie. Here is part of it, slightly edited to keep the swear words in:

It's a great piece but I can't help feeling if it had been written by a woman it would be passed over as a whiny female giving out, the fact its been written by a male seems to give it some authority. Don't get me wrong, I love what he wrote and love that its getting the attention it rightly deserves but had it been written by a woman would anyone in the media care?

YumCha · 11-08-2014 09:30PM

I need feminism for that whooshing sound of this entire thread going over mens' heads as they parachute into it...

allym · 11-08-2014 11:38PM

I'll never really understand the whole "we don't need feminism cos everything's fine in the Western world" idea.

Even if that was true, and women were 100% treated the exact same as men in the west, just because something doesn't affect me personally, doesn't mean it's not an issue.

As Links said, racism is still a huge issue but just because I've never personally experienced it, doesn't mean it's not happening and I should just ignore it and say "Ah sure, we're grand now why would you be worried about that!"
The same could be said for marriage equality, poverty, any number of issues really. But I doubt you'd have many people taking a similar stance on those issues that they do with feminism.

Scarinae · 12-08-2014 10:56AM

eviltwin wrote: »

It's a great piece but I can't help feeling if it had been written by a woman it would be passed over as a whiny female giving out, the fact its been written by a male seems to give it some authority. Don't get me wrong, I love what he wrote and love that its getting the attention it rightly deserves but had it been written by a woman would anyone in the media care?

I completely get what you’re saying - it IS annoying when a man writes something positive about feminism and gets praised for it, when a woman saying the exact same thing would be ridiculed or characterised as a ‘Feminazi’ (however, reading the comments on the article, there are still a lot of ‘what about the men’ type responses)

meeeeh · 12-08-2014 11:54AM

I do agree with the majority of article but I am willing to guess it is written by someone reasonably slim. My oh and my best friend are overweight and my brother used to be overweight. I don't think slim people sometimes realize how much abuse can overweight people get regardless of the gender. It would be sometimes painful to watch my slightly overweight brother how affected he was by it.

B0jangles · 12-08-2014 12:28PM

Because this kind of thinking is still so commonplace:

40% of managers avoid hiring younger women to get around maternity leave

Cost of maternity leave too high and women 'aren't as good at their jobs' when they return, survey of 500 managers says

A third of managers would rather employ a man in his 20s or 30s over a woman of the same age for fear of maternity leave, according to a new study. A survey of 500 managers by law firm Slater & Gordon showed that more than 40% admitted they are generally wary of hiring a woman of childbearing age, while a similar number would be wary of hiring a woman who has already had a child or hiring a mother for a senior role.

A quarter said they would rather hire a man to get around issues of maternity leave and child care when a woman does return to work, with 44% saying the financial costs to their business because of maternity leave are a significant concern.

The study also showed that a third of managers claim that women are not as good at their jobs when they come back from maternity leave.

Employment relations minister Jo Swinson said: "Pregnancy discrimination is illegal, immoral and completely unacceptable. There is no excuse for such attitudes from these employers, who frankly are dinosaurs. British business simply can't afford to lose out on half of the available talent pool.

"In any event, the introduction of shared parental leave from April will mean men as well as women taking leave to look after their new baby. This will help to stamp out outdated stereotypes about who should do what, and let parents get on with making their own decisions about how they manage work and family life."

Frances O'Grady, the general secretary of TUC, said: "It is illegal to not give someone a job on the grounds that they may have children in the future.

"Employers that do this are not only breaking the law but being incredibly stupid as they are missing out on many of the country's brightest young workers."

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/aug/12/managers-avoid-hiring-younger-women-maternity-leave

ivytwine · 12-08-2014 12:30PM

B0jangles wrote: »

Because this kind of thinking is still so commonplace:

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/aug/12/managers-avoid-hiring-younger-women-maternity-leave

Well, as a 25 yo looking for a better job who is nowhere near getting sorted enough to be going popping out sprogs, that has to be one of the most depressing things I've read all day.

rainbow kirby · 12-08-2014 12:32PM

"In any event, the introduction of shared parental leave from April will mean men as well as women taking leave to look after their new baby. This will help to stamp out outdated stereotypes about who should do what, and let parents get on with making their own decisions about how they manage work and family life."

The fact that it has taken so long for shared parental leave to be A Thing pretty much anywhere, and the fact that it will probably take about another 20 years for it to appear in Ireland...

strobe · 12-08-2014 02:52PM

Scarinae wrote: »

(however, reading the comments on the article, there are still a lot of ‘what about the men’ type responses)

but... it's an article written by a man, directed at men, with an opening gambit "A man complaining about “anti-male sexism” is the sound of a man crying about lost advantages. Huge, man-made, God-thundering advantages." which boils down to 'sexism against men doesn't exist and any man that mentions it is just a privileged crybaby'...

...you can hardly play the 'whataboutery card' on this one surely..?

Annasopra · 12-08-2014 07:32PM

Because I just read some social media commentary calling Cllr Rebecca Moynihan an asshole for highlighting this.

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/politics/viking-splash-tours-apologise-after-4038570

YumCha · 16-08-2014 10:24AM

Woman refused abortion made to give birth by caesarean

Follow up with more details - psychiatrists on expert panel believed abortion was justified

Also this:
Chances of getting a rape case to prosecution at lowest levels ever in UK since records began

meeeeh · 16-08-2014 03:29PM

YumCha wrote: »

Also this:
Chances of getting a rape case to prosecution at lowest levels ever in UK since records began

While any number of non prosecuted cases is to high, I wonder if the stats are not a bit hard to compare at the moment because of the influx of historical cases after Jimmy Saville scandal. And those are probably extremely hard to prosecute if you don't find couple of victims of the same person. I could be wrong but the proportion of non prosecuted historical cases would be interesting to know.

YumCha · 16-08-2014 09:44PM

YumCha wrote: »

Woman refused abortion made to give birth by caesarean

Follow up with more details - psychiatrists on expert panel believed abortion was justified

Another update: apparently the woman was a rape survivor, who believes the state denied her abortion until foetus became legally viable:

https://twitter.com/JohnBurnsST/status/500746784101371904

So, so angry about this...

rainbow kirby · 17-08-2014 12:28AM

Paywalled...but you can get some of the important details

Found out at 8 weeks, pregnancy as a result of rape, delayed until a delivery at 25 weeks.

What the everloving **** is wrong with this country.

Tarzana · 17-08-2014 03:50AM

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Paywalled...but you can get some of the important details

Found out at 8 weeks, pregnancy as a result of rape, delayed until a delivery at 25 weeks.

What the everloving **** is wrong with this country.

Weird, RTÉ has omitted the detail that she was raped:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0816/637562-abortion-refusal/

A young woman had a baby delivered by caesarean section after a panel of experts convened under the country's new laws decided not to permit an abortion.

Her case was assessed under the legislation which was passed last summer and came into effect at the start of the year.

The woman cannot be identified because there is a court order in place with reporting restrictions.

This was first reported in the Irish Independent this morning but more details have emerged throughout the day.

She was admitted to hospital in her second trimester wanting to have a termination.

RTÉ News understands that she was very vulnerable.

The Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act says that a termination can be carried out if a woman's life is at risk.

It includes from suicide and this can only be averted by carrying out a termination.

The legislation came into force at the beginning of this year,

The woman was assessed by a panel of three experts, It was agreed that she had suicidal thoughts and a decision was made to terminate the pregnancy by caesarean section.

It is believed that the woman wanted to have an abortion and began a hunger strike.

The Health Service Executive sought an order from the High Court to allow it to hydrate her by giving fluids.

This order was granted.

A second court date was set but later withdrawn after the woman agreed to have the baby delivered by caesarean section a few days later.

This was performed when she was 24 going on 25 weeks pregnant.

The baby is being cared for in hospital at the moment.

No mention it being rape.

Tarzana · 17-08-2014 03:54AM

strobe wrote: »

...you can hardly play the 'whataboutery card' on this one surely..?

Interesting choice of words. Do you consider it "playing a card" whenever someone mentions whataboutery on this forum? Maybe people actually consider it, ya know, whataboutery and are not playing a card?

SueBoom · 17-08-2014 08:00AM

Tarzana wrote: »

Weird, RTÉ has omitted the detail that she was raped:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0816/637562-abortion-refusal/

No mention it being rape.

"The woman cannot be identified because there is a court order in place with reporting restrictions." This reporting restriction generally suggests rape, or sexual assualt in other cases.

meeeeh · 17-08-2014 09:24AM

Indo are saying she might have been raped but also that she was afraid for her life from someone known to her. She is not irish. I think in this case the speculation can lead you in so many directions that it is actually very hard to presume anything.

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/health/i-am-afraid-ill-be-killed-abortion-case-woman-believed-her-life-was-in-danger-30513878.html

YumCha · 17-08-2014 11:02AM

meeeeh wrote: »

Indo are saying she might have been raped but also that she was afraid for her life from someone known to her. She is not irish. I think in this case the speculation can lead you in so many directions that it is actually very hard to presume anything.

What speculation is that?

I would trust the Indo's 'reporting' with a grain of salt. The Sunday Times has already stated that they worked for a week on the story.

And whatever your source for news - the way this woman has been treated is barbaric.

meeeeh · 17-08-2014 11:26AM

YumCha wrote: »

What speculation is that?

I would trust the Indo's 'reporting' with a grain of salt. The Sunday Times has already stated that they worked for a week on the story.

And whatever your source for news - the way this woman has been treated is barbaric.

You really think that a immigrant that barley speaks English knows that she needs to be suiccidal to get an abortion? I think she got progressively under more pressure until she had a lot less options and probably became more and more scared, desperate and possibly suiccidal. But I don't think you will found that HSE procedure was wrong. But it shows how I humane the law is. I am speculating that this is not a case against suecide clause, this case shows how unfair general unavailability of absorption is. But again that is me speculating what happened.

But yes she was treated barbaric but because there is no general availability of abortion not because of procedure.

YumCha · 17-08-2014 04:25PM

meeeeh wrote: »

But I don't think you will found that HSE procedure was wrong.

I think we're going to disagree here - because imo the HSE leaving her in limbo for 16-odd weeks is absolutely wrong.

Amirani · 17-08-2014 05:58PM

I was grabbing a coffee in McDonald's in Phibsboro the other day and I needed to use the bathroom. I noticed that there were 3 options:

1. Ladies/Baby Changing
2. Men
3. Wheelchair

Why not have baby changing facilities in both toilets, or in a gender neutral area? Why obligate mothers to always change the babies instead of fathers?

Links234 · 17-08-2014 06:23PM

Diego Simeone wrote: »

I was grabbing a coffee in McDonald's in Phibsboro the other day and I needed to use the bathroom. I noticed that there were 3 options:

1. Ladies/Baby Changing
2. Men
3. Wheelchair

Why not have baby changing facilities in both toilets, or in a gender neutral area? Why obligate mothers to always change the babies instead of fathers?

It's made even more complicated when you think about what a mum with a little boy or dad with a little girl are supposed to do? I'm often amazed when abroad and find gender neutral facilities. Why not just one big bathroom with lots of cubicles, larger cupicles for disabled, and baby changing facilities, that's for everyone?

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 17-08-2014 06:33PM

My dad worked part-time and my mam full-time when we were little, so he'd have us out and about a lot. He didn't know whether to bring us into the men's toilets or go into the women's toilets with us. A lot of my earliest memories involve peeing outside...

meeeeh · 18-08-2014 08:38AM

YumCha wrote: »

I think we're going to disagree here - because imo the HSE leaving her in limbo for 16-odd weeks is absolutely wrong.

Today's Times has a lot more comprehensive article. The suecide clause was no good to her at 8 weeks and as I thought she wasn't aware of the law here and I would guess she was offered very little support. It will turn out that HSE did everything by procedure. It also proves how lack of abortion is inhumane and how she was placed in more danger because termination was not available to her.

On a seperate issue I do wish media would properly report things and not as they wish them to be. I'm not an apologist for HSE but ST went for ridiculous sensationalism that just didn't make sense. HSE are very often in humane but they are not that dumb. And to top it all the actual truth seems to be a even more horrific.

iwantmydinner · 18-08-2014 10:44AM

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/08/violation-after-violation-why-did-ireland-force-woman-hunger-strike-bear-her

Into The Blue · 18-08-2014 10:48AM

Journey Melodic Raspberry wrote: »

My dad worked part-time and my mam full-time when we were little, so he'd have us out and about a lot. He didn't know whether to bring us into the men's toilets or go into the women's toilets with us. A lot of my earliest memories involve peeing outside...

We use the Differently Abled facilities.

pwurple · 21-08-2014 06:32AM

Diego Simeone wrote: »

I was grabbing a coffee in McDonald's in Phibsboro the other day and I needed to use the bathroom. I noticed that there were 3 options:

1. Ladies/Baby Changing
2. Men
3. Wheelchair

Why not have baby changing facilities in both toilets, or in a gender neutral area? Why obligate mothers to always change the babies instead of fathers?

My husband will go straight into the ladies for that one. No-one has objected in nearly 4 years of babies.

YumCha · 24-08-2014 09:39PM

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/maeve-sheehan-traumatic-journey-of-a-pregnant-girl-30531610.html

I need feminism because...

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