Has the ESR experiment worked?

GCW · 08-08-2014 02:49PM

cairny wrote: »

No ESR for Category 1 players so that might explain it, is he low enough?

Nah he's category 3!

PARlance · 08-08-2014 02:56PM

GCW wrote: »

Nah he's category 3!

Were both counting?
We had a non counting round last week due to the down poor at the weekend.

GCW · 08-08-2014 03:04PM

PARlance wrote: »

Were both counting?
We had a non counting round last week due to the down poor at the weekend.

Yes. They were both QSH events. Qualifying Stableford Home.

SEORG · 08-08-2014 04:12PM

It can sometimes take up to a week to kick in on the club system, no idea why. Happened to me earlier this year.

yettie1701 · 08-08-2014 04:31PM

Happened me two weeks ago. I had a nett 69 in a medal in April standard scratch was 73 so went from 7.9 to 7.1. Got a couple of .1s back and was 7.3. Played another medal and shot nett 68 and standard scratch was 72. I got cut .8 for the competition which left me at 6.5 and then got cut another full shot for the exceptional score ( my arse) which has put me at 5.5. It can't cut below that ( thank Jaysus ) as it can't cut category 1 players. Very harsh IMO and not really catching the hooks as they won't let this happen them. All it makes me want to do is get a while pile of .1s back I'm sorry to say. And needless to say I'm playing pure muck since then.

SnowDrifts · 08-08-2014 05:03PM

yettie1701 wrote: »

Happened me two weeks ago. I had a nett 69 in a medal in April standard scratch was 73 so went from 7.9 to 7.1. Got a couple of .1s back and was 7.3. Played another medal and shot nett 68 and standard scratch was 72. I got cut .8 for the competition which left me at 6.5 and then got cut another full shot for the exceptional score ( my arse) which has put me at 5.5. It can't cut below that ( thank Jaysus ) as it can't cut category 1 players. Very harsh IMO and not really catching the hooks as they won't let this happen them. All it makes me want to do is get a while pile of .1s back I'm sorry to say. And needless to say I'm playing pure muck since then.

Oh poor you... you won't be in the net 60s for a while. So very harsh. And now because of that you are going to cheat and try get a "pile of .1s"?

*Shakes head in disgust*

SaveOurLyric · 08-08-2014 05:18PM

yettie1701 wrote: »

Happened me two weeks ago. I had a nett 69 in a medal in April standard scratch was 73 so went from 7.9 to 7.1. Got a couple of .1s back and was 7.3. Played another medal and shot nett 68 and standard scratch was 72. I got cut .8 for the competition which left me at 6.5 and then got cut another full shot for the exceptional score ( my arse) which has put me at 5.5. It can't cut below that ( thank Jaysus ) as it can't cut category 1 players. Very harsh IMO and not really catching the hooks as they won't let this happen them. All it makes me want to do is get a while pile of .1s back I'm sorry to say. And needless to say I'm playing pure muck since then.

The ESR has worked very well at more accurately predicting the correct handicap of rapidly improving golfers.
You cannot blame it for something for which it was not designed. Like the rest of the Congu system, it is based on the assumption of the honest golfer trying his best, and was never intended to catch 'hooks' as you put it.
Two rounds of 4 shots better than CSS for a Cat2 golfer is most defintely exceptional : the odds are in the hundreds to one. And therefore, rather than chance, that you improved your standard of golf rather than just had a good day within your normal statistical range.
(I presume you are just expressing a feeling rather than an intent on the 0.1s. If you make any effort to gain one, let alone a pile of them, then you would be cheating).

evillive · 08-08-2014 05:24PM

GCW wrote: »

Has the ESR thing been canned or stopped working?

I have noticed someone with a net diff of -6 & -4 in the space of 3 rounds who didn't get an ESR. I thought -4 or more was the trigger? They have been known to disappear from the system too...

i think Golfnet is a bit off at the moment - i received a .5 ESR earlier in the year which has disappeared off the system - the handicap secretary in the club has circulated members saying if Golfnet is not showing up correctly that they will sort it with GUI if given info from members - must ask for an update at weekend - but am 12.5 on GN but will play as 12.0

Rikand · 08-08-2014 08:21PM

I wish they'd cut category 1 golfers at least, 0.5....... Shooting 4 under your handicap twice from 5 and under is exceptionally exceptional

yettie1701 · 08-08-2014 08:48PM

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

The ESR has worked very well at more accurately predicting the correct handicap of rapidly improving golfers.
You cannot blame it for something for which it was not designed. Like the rest of the Congu system, it is based on the assumption of the honest golfer trying his best, and was never intended to catch 'hooks' as you put it.
Two rounds of 4 shots better than CSS for a Cat2 golfer is most defintely exceptional : the odds are in the hundreds to one. And therefore, rather than chance, that you improved your standard of golf rather than just had a good day within your normal statistical range.
(I presume you are just expressing a feeling rather than an intent on the 0.1s. If you make any effort to gain one, let alone a pile of them, then you would be cheating).

I would say a flash in the pan would be more accurate in my own case. I would never play to get .1 back deliberately I can't stand people doing that. Sorry if I gave that impression to anybody. I'm an honest golfer and things just went really well for me twice in the one year. Just feel a bit aggrieved that lots of others in my own club more deserving of my medicine. But that's golf.

SaveOurLyric · 08-08-2014 08:53PM

Rikand wrote: »

I wish they'd cut category 1 golfers at least, 0.5....... Shooting 4 under your handicap twice from 5 and under is exceptionally exceptional

I am only speculating, but I suspect the thinking was that it is high handicappers who are likely the ones to make big steps in performance: mainly newbies taking up the game, but also scenarios such as :someone playing intermittently for years then decides to take it 'seriously', practice goes from nil to plenty, gets lessons that sort out hurling grips or major flaws holding a player back etc. And they are the ones that the old system was not keeping quick enough pace with as they made a break through.
Cat 1 golfers are most unlikely to make such big step improvements, gains being more inch-by-inch stuff (I guess. I have never been there unfortunately). Steadier cat1 golfers, if they really have made a step forward, will get to the correct hc pretty quickly anyway - and without upsetting the bar with a score of 45pts as the rapid improving 21 handicapper is liable to do.

Ciaranra · 09-08-2014 08:07AM

Don't like the E.S.R you should be cut for scores you put in. I.M.O most golfers hit that purple patch and think they figured out how to master the game, then you loose a couple shots then you get hit with E.S.R then a week later you start shanking the ball,

TheDoc · 11-08-2014 11:19AM

After being cut from 10-6 last summer, in a weekend, due to ESR and regular cut, I've spent most of this summer adjusting to the dramatic change in how I need to play and score to match this lower handicap.

I've been at 6 in the past, but the difference being that it was a gradual drop, as I was improving points in my game, and it was kinda "I'll get there soon". The jump from 10-6 was dramatic. My game was gradually improving, and things coming back to place, but the weekend I got that cut things just fell into place, mostly me getting putts from all over the place.

I've struggled for large parts of this season, adjusting to this lower handicap. It can be a bit soul destroying, I went weeks and weeks doing nothing but gaining back .1

I'm out at 8 now, and started showing good form at the start of July getting a few cuts and finishing in the prizes, as well as some fourball event wins as well.

I don't have an issue with ESR, my goal is to be the best golfer I can be. And with that goal, I know along the way will come prizes and money into my account, so I don't focus on that solely. But it does have a pretty devastating effect if it gives you a massive cut and you arn't prepared for it.

It's only with some recent work on my game that I'm feeling a bit more confident, and that I can handle 8, nevermind 6. Obviously I know I can do it, since I was there before, but it's about getting the game in shape to keep it there.

I'd also mention that the system has some SERIOUS flaws in regards how it's working in the handicap systems themselves. My ESR caused chaos with my handicap this year, where the system was recording me as playing off 12, failing to take the ESR into account, and what went on that weekend. It took 12 weeks to resolve.

It was such a mess. I had to withdraw from two club teams as there was constant contradiction between the GUI, the club and the leinster assosiation and was denied access to two Leinster events as they couldn't verify my handicap. So it had a major impact on that front as well. Especially for a Leinster event that I qualified for.

I'll accept that is just a technical issue to iron out,and might even have been an edge case, but I'd say the only issue with ESR is the DRAMATIC cut people can get, and the likelyhood they will struggle with it when you are around the lower handicap range.

Although on the plus side, struggling so much made me practice better and more, and my game is all the better for it.

Russman · 11-08-2014 01:09PM

I think (or at least I'd hope) that most reasonable people would acknowledge that ESR has the potential to hit people who don't really deserve it. There's always going to be cases where someone simply has 2 rounds where everything goes right, they get massively cut through the CSS mechanism and are then cut again via ESR. Personally I think that's very wrong as it can put people who are certainly not "bandits", off their golf. I do know of one guy who was "refunded" his shots as it was just too severe.

Bearing that in mind, I'd wonder how many of us know more people that got hit and deserved it, versus people who got hit and, if we're honest, aren't bandits and didn't deserve it. Obviously the handicap Nazi$ who think everyone who hits a good shot is a bandit and should be cut will disagree

, but I definitely know a few who I wouldn't say deserved it and very few, if any, who actually did. The real bandits are simply making sure they don't do that second exceptional score until they have enough games played to negate the first score. I've had one guy ask me mid-round, about the criteria, as he wasn't sure if he'd try do a score on that particular day because he already had one exceptional score a few weeks prior. Funnily enough he broke CSS by 3 and avoided the ESR.
For example if someone was playing in the last qualifying comp of the year and an ESR would, say, make them ineligible for a team the following year, they'd be mad to go for it. It might not be PC to say that but its the reality. I've no dog in the fight either as it doesn't apply to Cat 1, I just have sympathy with those who do.

So, IMHO, if ESR was/is intended to root out bandits, then no, the experiment hasn't worked. If its intended to speed up the natural time lag between someone improving and their handicap catching up, then, possibly, but I'd still say no it hasn't, to be honest. It wasn't needed and is a "sledgehammer to crack a nut" approach to a real, but very small problem in the game.

Juniors and improvers love it as it speeds them up in reducing their handicap, but other than that, I just don't see the point of it TBH. I do take the point about forcing some people to adjust, practice etc, but, really, what's the point in telling someone in their mid 60s who happened to have 2 hot rounds that they need to practice more ?

TheDoc · 11-08-2014 01:58PM

In relation to the above I havn't heard one case where a known bandit has been hit by this.

Being a bandit, they manipulate their game intentionally in order to keep their handicap at a certain level. Doesn't take a genius for a bandit to figure out how to dodge this system, as is clearly happening imo.

I think the only people effected by this are people who are on that trend of rapid improvement, and the player themselves want to aim for that lower handicap, or people who have those mental weekends where everything goes right, like I had.

There is no time that I can remember, where over the course of playing Thursday to Sunday, I have ever gone 75,75,75, or something CLOSE to that( those are the three scores posted in the weekend ESR cut me).

+3 is my personal best, and I'd say a rough gauge, in my head, that for every five rounds 1-2 will be in the 70's, the rest in the 80's. Not the stuff of a six handicapper, as I was cut too.

Russman · 11-08-2014 02:13PM

TheDoc wrote: »

In relation to the above I havn't heard one case where a known bandit has been hit by this.

Being a bandit, they manipulate their game intentionally in order to keep their handicap at a certain level. Doesn't take a genius for a bandit to figure out how to dodge this system, as is clearly happening imo.

I think the only people effected by this are people who are on that trend of rapid improvement, and the player themselves want to aim for that lower handicap, or people who have those mental weekends where everything goes right, like I had.

There is no time that I can remember, where over the course of playing Thursday to Sunday, I have ever gone 75,75,75, or something CLOSE to that( those are the three scores posted in the weekend ESR cut me).

+3 is my personal best, and I'd say a rough gauge, in my head, that for every five rounds 1-2 will be in the 70's, the rest in the 80's. Not the stuff of a six handicapper, as I was cut too.

Couldn't agree more.
So, if the ESR doesn't catch bandits, what's the point of it ? (not asking you directly, but in general)
If its to get rid of the time gap between an improver improving and their handicap catching up (which it naturally will), then it arguably looks like its just a begrudgers' rule to stop people who haven't reached "their level", from winning.

Is it this year or next year the trial period runs to ?

HarshOstrich · 11-08-2014 03:01PM

I have gone down quite abit thanks to ESR
it took 2 off me earlier in year and then 1 more when recently
im quite happy knowing if i shoot 40 points in next few weeks i will lose 1 more full shot

SaveOurLyric · 11-08-2014 06:31PM

Russman wrote: »

Couldn't agree more.
So, if the ESR doesn't catch bandits, what's the point of it ? (not asking you directly, but in general)
If its to get rid of the time gap between an improver improving and their handicap catching up (which it naturally will), then it arguably looks like its just a begrudgers' rule to stop people who haven't reached "their level", from winning.

Is it this year or next year the trial period runs to ?

Not everything in handicap life has to be about catching bandits.
The point of the ESR is to match handicaps more closely to playing ability. It has worked.
It is not a begrudger's rule because it reduces the possibility of people who havent reached "their level" - that the whole point of the handicap system - that all golfers tee it up on a given day with an equal chance of winning.

SaveOurLyric · 11-08-2014 06:35PM

HarshOstrich wrote: »

I have gone down quite abit thanks to ESR
it took 2 off me earlier in year and then 1 more when recently
im quite happy knowing if i shoot 40 points in next few weeks i will lose 1 more full shot

A perfect case of ESR working correctly (if anything even still to 'gently'). Beating your handicap by 4 shots or more 5 times within months is way beyond the odds if the handicap was correctly matched to current playing ability, and shows how slow the old system was with catching up with this type of handicap correction (no criticism of Ostrich here - just the system performing better to this type of scoring).

SaveOurLyric · 11-08-2014 06:40PM

Russman wrote: »

Bearing that in mind, I'd wonder how many of us know more people that got hit and deserved it, versus people who got hit and, if we're honest, aren't bandits and didn't deserve it. Obviously the handicap Nazi$ who think everyone who hits a good shot is a bandit and should be cut will disagree

Again its NOTHING to do with banditism (or National Socialism).
It is not a 'catching' of someone. It is not a punishment of someone. It is not about hobbling someone from winning some loot.
It is about improving a mathematical algorithm to best accurately reflect in a number a golfer's current playing level, relative to others.

SaveOurLyric · 11-08-2014 06:43PM

Russman wrote: »

I do take the point about forcing some people to adjust, practice etc, but, really, what's the point in telling someone in their mid 60s who happened to have 2 hot rounds that they need to practice more ?

None. And it does not aim to do that anyway. There is no intention to encourage to improve or any such agenda with any of the handicap system.

Russman · 11-08-2014 10:31PM

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Not everything in handicap life has to be about catching bandits.
The point of the ESR is to match handicaps more closely to playing ability. It has worked.
It is not a begrudger's rule because it reduces the possibility of people who havent reached "their level" - that the whole point of the handicap system - that all golfers tee it up on a given day with an equal chance of winning.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

There's never going to be a system where everything is "equal" as such. People's abilities are always going to be fluid and will change, both getting better and getting worse. I think there will naturally be a lag in handicaps catching up and IMO that's not a bad thing.

HarshOstrich · 12-08-2014 10:26AM

i had a bit of a purple batch really when i got the 2 shot ESR and then i went quiet for a couple of weeks trying to adjust to losing 3 shots in 1 round and i had my best ever round a couple weeks ago losing another 2 shots but im still well able to play to my new handicap as i had 36 points at the weekend with a number of 3 putts and never making anything outside 5 foot. a little off topic but
i think alot of this handicap stuff is in our heads as we go out targeting to beat our handicap when we should be more positive than that.ive lost a total of 9 shots this year and am now off 7,in my first decent round this year i was playing off 16 and went through 9 holes with 25 points and suddenly got all defensive and had 11 points on the back, if i was playing off a lower handicap i wouldnt have felt the same way and might of pushed on.

Norfolk Enchants_ · 12-08-2014 11:24AM

HarshOstrich wrote: »

i had a bit of a purple batch really when i got the 2 shot ESR and then i went quiet for a couple of weeks trying to adjust to losing 3 shots in 1 round and i had my best ever round a couple weeks ago losing another 2 shots but im still well able to play to my new handicap as i had 36 points at the weekend with a number of 3 putts and never making anything outside 5 foot. a little off topic but
i think alot of this handicap stuff is in our heads as we go out targeting to beat our handicap when we should be more positive than that.ive lost a total of 9 shots this year and am now off 7,in my first decent round this year i was playing off 16 and went through 9 holes with 25 points and suddenly got all defensive and had 11 points on the back, if i was playing off a lower handicap i wouldnt have felt the same way and might of pushed on.

Nail. on. the. head.
Fellas come up with all sorts of excuses for not playing as well as they expect to, ESR been the latest one.

Senecio · 12-08-2014 11:37AM

I just wish I was playing well enough to have earned an ESR.

Rikand · 12-08-2014 11:46AM

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

I am only speculating, but I suspect the thinking was that it is high handicappers who are likely the ones to make big steps in performance: mainly newbies taking up the game, but also scenarios such as :someone playing intermittently for years then decides to take it 'seriously', practice goes from nil to plenty, gets lessons that sort out hurling grips or major flaws holding a player back etc. And they are the ones that the old system was not keeping quick enough pace with as they made a break through.
Cat 1 golfers are most unlikely to make such big step improvements, gains being more inch-by-inch stuff (I guess. I have never been there unfortunately). Steadier cat1 golfers, if they really have made a step forward, will get to the correct hc pretty quickly anyway - and without upsetting the bar with a score of 45pts as the rapid improving 21 handicapper is liable to do.

When you only get cut 0.1 at a time, it happens a lot slower than you might think.

but all the same I see your point

SnowDrifts · 12-08-2014 12:00PM

I think people giving out about getting an ESR cut are looking at things the wrong way. I lost 4.6 shots last month for 2 comps in the same week. I was delighted and thought of it as my prize... after all, getting lower is my sole objective. I guess there are some people who just prefer the lamps and vases.

TheDoc · 12-08-2014 12:17PM

SnowDrifts wrote: »

I think people giving out about getting an ESR cut are looking at things the wrong way. I lost 4.6 shots last month for 2 comps in the same week. I was delighted and thought of it as my prize... after all, getting lower is my sole objective. I guess there are some people who just prefer the lamps and vases.

I was a bit miffed at going 10-6. My objective is always to get lower, prixes don't overly concern me(although we have a good system with money going into pro shop account) I took exception to the fact that I knew the minute I saw the massive cut I was going to struggle.

I knew my game wasn't in anyway good enough to maintain a six handicap. golf is a big confidence game as we all know, and for me enjoyment comes from playing good golf. I didn't enjoy the few months were it was constant +.1's

I didn't enjoy having to miss out on club team events because of the systems issue with the ESR.

Sure it made me ramp up my practice schedule, and try get more efficent with practice, but its only taking shape now over the course of the last month or so. I've had a good six months of struggling. Not exactly playing bad golf, but not playing to the level of a six handicap.

I think I've levelled of nicely now at 8, and can get sttled and look to go lower now with working on specific parts of my game. But the initial cut was massively dramatic and completely unstabbled my game and I became too tangled up in trying to improve too many things to stay at 6.

I think there is probably a big difference loosing 4 shots to say go 20-16, or 17-13 as around that handicap range small changes that bring improvement can have dramatic effect. But when you are around class 1, losing four shots in a weekend is a serious effect.

Dr_Colossus · 12-08-2014 12:53PM

TheDoc wrote: »

I think there is probably a big difference loosing 4 shots to say go 20-16, or 17-13 as around that handicap range small changes that bring improvement can have dramatic effect. But when you are around class 1, losing four shots in a weekend is a serious effect.

Exactly and that's why I wrote in another tread some time ago the ESR cut should be a function of your handicap category. It's like the ESR was rolled out too fast with not much thought/discussion regarding it before hand.

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

I see the merits of ESR and in principle am not against it but I can't believe they didn't make the ESR cut a function of your handicap category. Massive difference to a cat 2 golfer getting cut two shots in comparison to a cat 4 golfer. Why not make it something like
normal ESR cut * handicap category / 5
to even out the severity of it.

SaveOurLyric · 12-08-2014 06:57PM

HarshOstrich wrote: »

i had a bit of a purple batch really when i got the 2 shot ESR and then i went quiet for a couple of weeks trying to adjust to losing 3 shots in 1 round and i had my best ever round a couple weeks ago losing another 2 shots but im still well able to play to my new handicap as i had 36 points at the weekend with a number of 3 putts and never making anything outside 5 foot. a little off topic but
i think alot of this handicap stuff is in our heads as we go out targeting to beat our handicap when we should be more positive than that.ive lost a total of 9 shots this year and am now off 7,in my first decent round this year i was playing off 16 and went through 9 holes with 25 points and suddenly got all defensive and had 11 points on the back, if i was playing off a lower handicap i wouldnt have felt the same way and might of pushed on.

What do you mean by 'quiet for a couple of weeks' ? If you beat CSS by 4 shots twice in a short period those rounds were about 9 shots better than your average. So your other rounds, even with the hc cup should have had you typically just about breaking 30 points.
Shooting 36 points again lately suggests (unless you really play a LOT of competitions) that your handicap might still be high.
That someone can get from 16 to 7 with ESR and still have 36 points surely is proof that the ESR system is working. Or again, that it should probably be even more agressive. Though tapering according to hc category as suggested above.

Has the ESR experiment worked?

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