Has the ESR experiment worked?

Webbs

As we are rapidly coming to the end of the qualifying scores season. Wondering what are peoples thoughts on the success or otherwise of the Exceptional Scoring Reduction (ESR) brought in this year?

My own feeling is that while it may have been a good idea on paper it has not worked that well.

I think it has cut too many players to a low handicap that they are probably not able to play to. A player could have a couple of good rounds in a short purple patch which we all get and get cut from 11 to 9 and then anything upto another 2 shots cut immediately with the ESR. While a player may be steadily improving, to take a leap from 11 to potentially 7 in a matter of weeks is a bit mad.

The UK system of the application of the cut being discretionary may well have been the better way to go. For those at the higher end where improvements can be quick say from 20 to 14 a 2 shot cut would not be impossible to deal with, as handicaps go lower each shot cut has more 'significance' so the ESR could be examined and applied if necessary by the handicap committee.

mike12

To be honest i think it has worked it has caught up the fast improver quickly and even the lower guys it is fair enough if you beat CSS by 4 twice u get a cut of 2.4 if you are in the 14/15 range is that enough?
A handicap golfers average score over the season should be a 1/4 of your handicap added to your handicap so a 12 handicapper on a par 72 course should be averaging 87 for the season.
There are too many golfers out there who will have there 2/3 good rounds a year and have there 12 or 13 . 1's and hardly move handicap.
If your goal is to get as low as possible which it should be then it is great if you want a handicap that is competitive and will give me a good chance of winning a couple of comps then it is not good for you.
Mike

bustercherry

Yes it has, wish it was around a few years back; would have saved me a bit of effort.

Mr. Larson

I can't make up my mind. If I was a Barton Cup selector I'd find it hard to put an ESR'd '6' (who started the year off 9) with an 8 in next years competition. I've seen people go from 9 to 5 in a matter of weeks and others go from 15 to 11 etc.

Although my handicap is my most coveted prize, I'm kind of glad it wasn't in place last year. I'm currently off 10 & on my way back towards 11 playing like a 14 but last year I went from 13 to 9. If the ESR caught me last year I'd probably be a 7 playing like a 14 which wouldn't be very cool but I'd still be happy with my low handicap. I wouldn't pick me for f. all tho.

Almaviva

I would think it has been a very good move. And better compulsory than discretionary.

Yes, it has cut some below what they will realistically hold, but better that than the too slow adjustment of the rapidly improving player which the system is prone to without the extra cut. Nor do I think it open to any deliberate exploitation by vanity handicap chasers - unike those who try to avoid handing in cards to preserve a handicap, the ESR does require the player to play real golf and put in a couple of good scores.

Simply a guess, but I would say the majority of those it was applied to were young golfers getting into the game rather than long term golfers or golfer making a sudden skill improvement. So again, good, to bring players into line faster and err on the side of a lower handicap than a high one. If it is really beyond them, then they will drift back up pretty quickly.

GreeBo

I think its a good thing.
I'm sick saying it, but its supposed to be a good day when you play to your handicap. Far too many people can play "ok" and still have 36 points...your handicap is too high if this is you.

Russman

GreeBo wrote: »

I'm sick saying it, but its supposed to be a good day when you play to your handicap.

Where does this come from Greebo ? Not having a go at you but I really can't see the logic of it to be honest.

Only asking because the CONGU website clearly states "average ability".
See Q2 on the FAQs....
Is this now out of date maybe ?

http://www.congu.com/faqs/handicaps.pdf

Personally I think average ability is the only sensible way to think of it, as you can refer to par or 36pts as a point of reference. Otherwise you're reducing "effective" par to, say, 32pts if thats what a players average is and if you think of handicap as number of shots he/she should be over par. If you think of handicap as something else then fair enough I suppose.

I'd be of the view that, for example, broadly speaking a 12 handicapper should be in or around 12 over par, most of the time. Same for a 2 or a 22 handicapper.
Just my opinion though.

GreeBo

Russman wrote: »

Where does this come from Greebo ? Not having a go at you but I really can't see the logic of it to be honest.

Only asking because the CONGU website clearly states "average ability".
See Q2 on the FAQs....
Is this now out of date maybe ?

http://www.congu.com/faqs/handicaps.pdf

Personally I think average ability is the only sensible way to think of it, as you can refer to par or 36pts as a point of reference. Otherwise you're reducing "effective" par to, say, 32pts if thats what a players average is and if you think of handicap as number of shots he/she should be over par. If you think of handicap as something else then fair enough I suppose.

I'd be of the view that, for example, broadly speaking a 12 handicapper should be in or around 12 over par, most of the time. Same for a 2 or a 22 handicapper.
Just my opinion though.

Average by definition means that you are over par as many times as you are under par. However golf isnt like that. Its *much* hard to be under par than it is to be over par. Hence why you only get 0.1 back but you can be cut from 0.1 all the way up to a full shot depending on your class.
Its also the reason why there is a buffer zone. If it was an average score then there should also be a buffer zone thats under par.

Take a read of this. You'll see that, taking their example,

The Model predicts that a 5.8 handicap player, if correctly handicapped, would be
expected have a Nett of the MGD of 3.2 (that is they play on average 3.2 shots over
handicap); a player handicap 15.5 is expected to play 5.5 over; a 25.7 player 7.3 over. [It
should be noted that a detailed analysis of over 9,000 scores from all Handicap Categories
shows good agreement (within 1/2 a shot) between the Model and what happens in practice].

/edit 1
Also check out Q4 here

The intent is that by placing a limit on the maximum score that can be recorded at any hole,
Handicaps are more representative of a player’s potential ability.

/edit 2
also worthwhile noting that the better you get, the more likely your handicap is to be close to your average score, hence the reason the cuts/increments get closer and closer but its still not an average due to the buffer zone.

If it was just an average then youd have to cut/increase equally and youd have people shooting 58 one week and 88 the next. The CONGU system attempts to balance the huge inconsistencies that golfers scores have, it does mean that for people who rapidly improve or disimprove their handicaps can be higher or lower than there current ability, but the majority of golfers are pretty stable, not improving or worsening rapidly.

The data that every handicap secretary has "proves" the system when you look at players scores.

GreeBo

"Interesting" thread about CONGU here
Those disagreeing with the OP here pretty much sum up my opinion.

MP62

Keano A Legend wrote: »

Sorry to derail the thread but can someone approach their club for a handicap increase?

You can of course, let us know how you get on.

GreeBo

You would need to give them a reason (usually illness)
Just saying "I'm playing badly" wont cut it (boom boom) as there is too much danger of you getting say 2 shots and all of a sudden you are 8 under some day when your game comes back to you.

shay1604

I joined a local golf club, my first time ever joining a club and i got a handicap of 15. I played pitch and putt for almost 14 yrs so i had the basics down as in swing and tempo. My query here is i had or am in the middle of a purple patch at the moment and have posted a few good scores. My course par is 67 and within the last few weeks i have have a score of 43 points and was cut 3, the next week i had a score of 38 and was cut 2.4, the week after i had another score of 43 and went from a handicap of 8.7 to 5.5. Altogether my handicap now is 5.5 in a total of 8 weeks i was cut 9 shots which i think is harsh. I was cut altogether 3.4 shots through this new e.s.r. rule. My question is shouls i approach the handicap secretary over this or is this a fair cut.
Any thoughts welcome
Seamus

Mr. Larson

Are you for real? Do you just want to keep being able to score 43pts? I think your expectations need a reality check. How have you been getting in off 6 or have you even tried playing to it yet?

John Divney

shay1604 wrote: »

I joined a local golf club, my first time ever joining a club and i got a handicap of 15. I played pitch and putt for almost 14 yrs so i had the basics down as in swing and tempo. My query here is i had or am in the middle of a purple patch at the moment and have posted a few good scores. My course par is 67 and within the last few weeks i have have a score of 43 points and was cut 3, the next week i had a score of 38 and was cut 2.4, the week after i had another score of 43 and went from a handicap of 8.7 to 5.5. Altogether my handicap now is 5.5 in a total of 8 weeks i was cut 9 shots which i think is harsh. I was cut altogether 3.4 shots through this new e.s.r. rule. My question is shouls i approach the handicap secretary over this or is this a fair cut.
Any thoughts welcome
Seamus

Crikey, good stuff. you must be a blinding p&p player, but even then it's a different ball game. Your driving must be excellent?

Getting cut 9 shots is mental in 8 weeks, what were your three cards like? They are dead right to cut you imo.

shay1604

As i said man its my first yr playing golf. I had 14 yrs playing pitch and putt where if you won a comp no matter what score you had you were cut 2. I have tried today playing off 6 and i had 36 points. Don't get me wrong i dont mind playing off that score im proud of it I was just wondering if it sounded fair and i only had a few weeks of good play and i've lost two thirds of my handicap. I've been told to go to the secretary and i was told i deserved the cut aswell.

shay1604

I was playing off 0 in pitch and putt and to be honest my course is very forgiving if your a bit off on the tee. Thanks for your opinion i didnt want to look a fool going to the handicap secretary as i posted i'm happy enough to be playing off 6

John Divney

They should cut one of your fingers off, 36 of six, in your first year, ENJOY!!!:)

shay1604

John Divney wrote: »

Crikey, good stuff. you must be a blinding p&p player, but even then it's a different ball game. Your driving must be excellent?

Getting cut 9 shots is mental in 8 weeks, what were your three cards like? They are dead right to cut you imo.

I played off scratch in pitch and putt and to be honest i'd be averaging about 270 yrds on my drive but my course is very forgiving if youre off on the tee. Thanks for your opinion man i didnt want to look a fool going to the handicap secretary

shay1604

John Divney wrote: »

They should cut one of your fingers off, 36 of six, in your first year, ENJOY!!!:)

Ha Ha thanks man

Mr. Larson

shay1604 wrote: »

As i said man its my first yr playing golf. I had 14 yrs playing pitch and putt where if you won a comp no matter what score you had you were cut 2. I have tried today playing off 6 and i had 36 points. Don't get me wrong i dont mind playing off that score im proud of it I was just wondering if it sounded fair and i only had a few weeks of good play and i've lost two thirds of my handicap. I've been told to go to the secretary and i was told i deserved the cut aswell.

Ok. Anyway. Yes its fair in my opinion and would reflect poorly on you if you tried to push back on what is a mandatory cut.

shay1604

Mr. Larson wrote: »

Ok. Anyway. Yes its fair in my opinion and would reflect poorly on you if you tried to push back on what is a mandatory cut.

Thanks man i needed an unbiased opinion as my friends i play with told me to talk to the secretary. If it sounds right i'm happy with that thanks for the replies

Mr. Larson

Well done on such good scoring by the way. Impressive shooting.

shay1604

Mr. Larson wrote: »

Well done on such good scoring by the way. Impressive shooting.

Thanks man i got new clubs and they made the world of difference. What do you play off?

Mr. Larson

shay1604 wrote: »

Thanks man i got new clubs and they made the world of difference. What do you play off?

Off 10 at the moment. Got to 8 last year but couldn't hold it, 1.6 shots in the wrong direction this year! I'm just not good enough to hold single figures only playing once per week max. Played more last year hence getting to 8. Had genuine ambitions to get to 6 this year... dreaming I was ��

shay1604

Mr. Larson wrote: »

Off 10 at the moment. Got to 8 last year but couldn't hold it, 1.6 shots in the wrong direction this year! I'm just not good enough to hold single figures only playing once per week max. Played more last year hence getting to 8. Had genuine ambitions to get to 6 this year... dreaming I was ��

Thats very good for once a week man in fairness i try getting out twice a week if i can. I found the range helped me something unreal i used to be confused between clubs and length which would be best so i used to go out with 2-3 clubs out of the bag and spend 20 mins to half an hour on each club and it gave me the confidence to hit like my 5-4 irons instead of a rescue club and within 60 yrds the pitch and putt comes into play if you have a p&p course near you i would def recommend going out once a week and just pitch from the grass instead of teebox. I'm averaging over the last few weeks 3 birdies a round i just have to keep the bogeys off the card.

Webbs

shay1604 wrote: »

Thanks man i needed an unbiased opinion as my friends i play with told me to talk to the secretary. If it sounds right i'm happy with that thanks for the replies

I'd say the hcap secretary would be a bit embarrassed that you got a hcap of 15 at start of year so going to him wouldnt be the best idea in the world

PARlance

Webbs wrote: »

I'd say the hcap secretary would be a bit embarrassed that you got a hcap of 15 at start of year so going to him wouldnt be the best idea in the world

Fair play on the cuts Shay, carrying on from Webbs point: Try not to look at it that you have been cut 9 shots in 8 weeks, if that's hard to handle or mentally adjust to, then look at it as the HC Sec getting your initial HC wrong.


I'm guessing a scratch P&P'er would have to have an absolutely horrible long game to play off 15. You'd probably be able to play to 15 with only a PW and Putter in your bag

If you've just had 36 points off 6 then don't even think about going near that HC Sec. As Webbs says, you won't be his friend, I'm sure he'll have gotten some stick from members for giving you 15 to start with.
Just a word of warning, so you can prepare for it, I'd be expecting that he'll give you a observational cut over the winter.
This can be applied at any stage throughout the year, but most clubs will review players scores over the winter, and when they're looking at yours, they might take another shot of you.

Fair play again! I'm off to the P&P course for 14 years

jukebox2310

I have been hit with 2 ESR cuts thus summer of 2 and 1 shots respectively over the space of 6 weeks resulting in my handicap going from 11.6 to 5.8
I don't consider myself a 6 handicapper - I gave merely played a couple of good rounds in a short period of time where the course has been playing shorter due to the weather.
I think I will struggle with my new handicap but am just going to have to get on with it now even though I do think the cutting was severe plus there was nothing taken into account about the poor rounds that I have played

jukebox2310

I have been hit with 2 ESR cuts thus summer of 2 and 1 shots respectively over the space of 6 weeks resulting in my handicap going from 11.6 to 5.8
I don't consider myself a 6 handicapper - I gave merely played a couple of good rounds in a short period of time where the course has been playing shorter due to the weather.
I think I will struggle with my new handicap but am just going to have to get on with it now even though I do think the cutting was severe

GCW

Has the ESR thing been canned or stopped working?

I have noticed someone with a net diff of -6 & -4 in the space of 3 rounds who didn't get an ESR. I thought -4 or more was the trigger? They have been known to disappear from the system too...

cairny

GCW wrote: »

Has the ESR thing been canned or stopped working?

I have noticed someone with a net diff of -6 & -4 in the space of 3 rounds who didn't get an ESR. I thought -4 or more was the trigger? They have been known to disappear from the system too...

No ESR for Category 1 players so that might explain it, is he low enough?

GCW

cairny wrote: »

No ESR for Category 1 players so that might explain it, is he low enough?

Nah he's category 3!

PARlance

GCW wrote: »

Nah he's category 3!

Were both counting?
We had a non counting round last week due to the down poor at the weekend.

GCW

PARlance wrote: »

Were both counting?
We had a non counting round last week due to the down poor at the weekend.

Yes. They were both QSH events. Qualifying Stableford Home.

SEORG

It can sometimes take up to a week to kick in on the club system, no idea why. Happened to me earlier this year.

yettie1701

Happened me two weeks ago. I had a nett 69 in a medal in April standard scratch was 73 so went from 7.9 to 7.1. Got a couple of .1s back and was 7.3. Played another medal and shot nett 68 and standard scratch was 72. I got cut .8 for the competition which left me at 6.5 and then got cut another full shot for the exceptional score ( my arse) which has put me at 5.5. It can't cut below that ( thank Jaysus ) as it can't cut category 1 players. Very harsh IMO and not really catching the hooks as they won't let this happen them. All it makes me want to do is get a while pile of .1s back I'm sorry to say. And needless to say I'm playing pure muck since then.

SnowDrifts

yettie1701 wrote: »

Happened me two weeks ago. I had a nett 69 in a medal in April standard scratch was 73 so went from 7.9 to 7.1. Got a couple of .1s back and was 7.3. Played another medal and shot nett 68 and standard scratch was 72. I got cut .8 for the competition which left me at 6.5 and then got cut another full shot for the exceptional score ( my arse) which has put me at 5.5. It can't cut below that ( thank Jaysus ) as it can't cut category 1 players. Very harsh IMO and not really catching the hooks as they won't let this happen them. All it makes me want to do is get a while pile of .1s back I'm sorry to say. And needless to say I'm playing pure muck since then.

Oh poor you... you won't be in the net 60s for a while. So very harsh. And now because of that you are going to cheat and try get a "pile of .1s"?

*Shakes head in disgust*

SaveOurLyric

yettie1701 wrote: »

Happened me two weeks ago. I had a nett 69 in a medal in April standard scratch was 73 so went from 7.9 to 7.1. Got a couple of .1s back and was 7.3. Played another medal and shot nett 68 and standard scratch was 72. I got cut .8 for the competition which left me at 6.5 and then got cut another full shot for the exceptional score ( my arse) which has put me at 5.5. It can't cut below that ( thank Jaysus ) as it can't cut category 1 players. Very harsh IMO and not really catching the hooks as they won't let this happen them. All it makes me want to do is get a while pile of .1s back I'm sorry to say. And needless to say I'm playing pure muck since then.

The ESR has worked very well at more accurately predicting the correct handicap of rapidly improving golfers.
You cannot blame it for something for which it was not designed. Like the rest of the Congu system, it is based on the assumption of the honest golfer trying his best, and was never intended to catch 'hooks' as you put it.
Two rounds of 4 shots better than CSS for a Cat2 golfer is most defintely exceptional : the odds are in the hundreds to one. And therefore, rather than chance, that you improved your standard of golf rather than just had a good day within your normal statistical range.
(I presume you are just expressing a feeling rather than an intent on the 0.1s. If you make any effort to gain one, let alone a pile of them, then you would be cheating).

evillive

GCW wrote: »

Has the ESR thing been canned or stopped working?

I have noticed someone with a net diff of -6 & -4 in the space of 3 rounds who didn't get an ESR. I thought -4 or more was the trigger? They have been known to disappear from the system too...

i think Golfnet is a bit off at the moment - i received a .5 ESR earlier in the year which has disappeared off the system - the handicap secretary in the club has circulated members saying if Golfnet is not showing up correctly that they will sort it with GUI if given info from members - must ask for an update at weekend - but am 12.5 on GN but will play as 12.0

Rikand

I wish they'd cut category 1 golfers at least, 0.5....... Shooting 4 under your handicap twice from 5 and under is exceptionally exceptional

yettie1701

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

The ESR has worked very well at more accurately predicting the correct handicap of rapidly improving golfers.
You cannot blame it for something for which it was not designed. Like the rest of the Congu system, it is based on the assumption of the honest golfer trying his best, and was never intended to catch 'hooks' as you put it.
Two rounds of 4 shots better than CSS for a Cat2 golfer is most defintely exceptional : the odds are in the hundreds to one. And therefore, rather than chance, that you improved your standard of golf rather than just had a good day within your normal statistical range.
(I presume you are just expressing a feeling rather than an intent on the 0.1s. If you make any effort to gain one, let alone a pile of them, then you would be cheating).

I would say a flash in the pan would be more accurate in my own case. I would never play to get .1 back deliberately I can't stand people doing that. Sorry if I gave that impression to anybody. I'm an honest golfer and things just went really well for me twice in the one year. Just feel a bit aggrieved that lots of others in my own club more deserving of my medicine. But that's golf.

SaveOurLyric

Rikand wrote: »

I wish they'd cut category 1 golfers at least, 0.5....... Shooting 4 under your handicap twice from 5 and under is exceptionally exceptional

I am only speculating, but I suspect the thinking was that it is high handicappers who are likely the ones to make big steps in performance: mainly newbies taking up the game, but also scenarios such as :someone playing intermittently for years then decides to take it 'seriously', practice goes from nil to plenty, gets lessons that sort out hurling grips or major flaws holding a player back etc. And they are the ones that the old system was not keeping quick enough pace with as they made a break through.
Cat 1 golfers are most unlikely to make such big step improvements, gains being more inch-by-inch stuff (I guess. I have never been there unfortunately). Steadier cat1 golfers, if they really have made a step forward, will get to the correct hc pretty quickly anyway - and without upsetting the bar with a score of 45pts as the rapid improving 21 handicapper is liable to do.

Ciaranra

Don't like the E.S.R you should be cut for scores you put in. I.M.O most golfers hit that purple patch and think they figured out how to master the game, then you loose a couple shots then you get hit with E.S.R then a week later you start shanking the ball,

TheDoc

After being cut from 10-6 last summer, in a weekend, due to ESR and regular cut, I've spent most of this summer adjusting to the dramatic change in how I need to play and score to match this lower handicap.

I've been at 6 in the past, but the difference being that it was a gradual drop, as I was improving points in my game, and it was kinda "I'll get there soon". The jump from 10-6 was dramatic. My game was gradually improving, and things coming back to place, but the weekend I got that cut things just fell into place, mostly me getting putts from all over the place.

I've struggled for large parts of this season, adjusting to this lower handicap. It can be a bit soul destroying, I went weeks and weeks doing nothing but gaining back .1

I'm out at 8 now, and started showing good form at the start of July getting a few cuts and finishing in the prizes, as well as some fourball event wins as well.

I don't have an issue with ESR, my goal is to be the best golfer I can be. And with that goal, I know along the way will come prizes and money into my account, so I don't focus on that solely. But it does have a pretty devastating effect if it gives you a massive cut and you arn't prepared for it.

It's only with some recent work on my game that I'm feeling a bit more confident, and that I can handle 8, nevermind 6. Obviously I know I can do it, since I was there before, but it's about getting the game in shape to keep it there.

I'd also mention that the system has some SERIOUS flaws in regards how it's working in the handicap systems themselves. My ESR caused chaos with my handicap this year, where the system was recording me as playing off 12, failing to take the ESR into account, and what went on that weekend. It took 12 weeks to resolve.

It was such a mess. I had to withdraw from two club teams as there was constant contradiction between the GUI, the club and the leinster assosiation and was denied access to two Leinster events as they couldn't verify my handicap. So it had a major impact on that front as well. Especially for a Leinster event that I qualified for.

I'll accept that is just a technical issue to iron out,and might even have been an edge case, but I'd say the only issue with ESR is the DRAMATIC cut people can get, and the likelyhood they will struggle with it when you are around the lower handicap range.

Although on the plus side, struggling so much made me practice better and more, and my game is all the better for it.

Russman

I think (or at least I'd hope) that most reasonable people would acknowledge that ESR has the potential to hit people who don't really deserve it. There's always going to be cases where someone simply has 2 rounds where everything goes right, they get massively cut through the CSS mechanism and are then cut again via ESR. Personally I think that's very wrong as it can put people who are certainly not "bandits", off their golf. I do know of one guy who was "refunded" his shots as it was just too severe.

Bearing that in mind, I'd wonder how many of us know more people that got hit and deserved it, versus people who got hit and, if we're honest, aren't bandits and didn't deserve it. Obviously the handicap Nazi$ who think everyone who hits a good shot is a bandit and should be cut will disagree , but I definitely know a few who I wouldn't say deserved it and very few, if any, who actually did. The real bandits are simply making sure they don't do that second exceptional score until they have enough games played to negate the first score. I've had one guy ask me mid-round, about the criteria, as he wasn't sure if he'd try do a score on that particular day because he already had one exceptional score a few weeks prior. Funnily enough he broke CSS by 3 and avoided the ESR.
For example if someone was playing in the last qualifying comp of the year and an ESR would, say, make them ineligible for a team the following year, they'd be mad to go for it. It might not be PC to say that but its the reality. I've no dog in the fight either as it doesn't apply to Cat 1, I just have sympathy with those who do.

So, IMHO, if ESR was/is intended to root out bandits, then no, the experiment hasn't worked. If its intended to speed up the natural time lag between someone improving and their handicap catching up, then, possibly, but I'd still say no it hasn't, to be honest. It wasn't needed and is a "sledgehammer to crack a nut" approach to a real, but very small problem in the game.

Juniors and improvers love it as it speeds them up in reducing their handicap, but other than that, I just don't see the point of it TBH. I do take the point about forcing some people to adjust, practice etc, but, really, what's the point in telling someone in their mid 60s who happened to have 2 hot rounds that they need to practice more ?

TheDoc

In relation to the above I havn't heard one case where a known bandit has been hit by this.

Being a bandit, they manipulate their game intentionally in order to keep their handicap at a certain level. Doesn't take a genius for a bandit to figure out how to dodge this system, as is clearly happening imo.

I think the only people effected by this are people who are on that trend of rapid improvement, and the player themselves want to aim for that lower handicap, or people who have those mental weekends where everything goes right, like I had.

There is no time that I can remember, where over the course of playing Thursday to Sunday, I have ever gone 75,75,75, or something CLOSE to that( those are the three scores posted in the weekend ESR cut me).

+3 is my personal best, and I'd say a rough gauge, in my head, that for every five rounds 1-2 will be in the 70's, the rest in the 80's. Not the stuff of a six handicapper, as I was cut too.

Russman

TheDoc wrote: »

In relation to the above I havn't heard one case where a known bandit has been hit by this.

Being a bandit, they manipulate their game intentionally in order to keep their handicap at a certain level. Doesn't take a genius for a bandit to figure out how to dodge this system, as is clearly happening imo.

I think the only people effected by this are people who are on that trend of rapid improvement, and the player themselves want to aim for that lower handicap, or people who have those mental weekends where everything goes right, like I had.

There is no time that I can remember, where over the course of playing Thursday to Sunday, I have ever gone 75,75,75, or something CLOSE to that( those are the three scores posted in the weekend ESR cut me).

+3 is my personal best, and I'd say a rough gauge, in my head, that for every five rounds 1-2 will be in the 70's, the rest in the 80's. Not the stuff of a six handicapper, as I was cut too.

Couldn't agree more.
So, if the ESR doesn't catch bandits, what's the point of it ? (not asking you directly, but in general)
If its to get rid of the time gap between an improver improving and their handicap catching up (which it naturally will), then it arguably looks like its just a begrudgers' rule to stop people who haven't reached "their level", from winning.

Is it this year or next year the trial period runs to ?

HarshOstrich

I have gone down quite abit thanks to ESR
it took 2 off me earlier in year and then 1 more when recently
im quite happy knowing if i shoot 40 points in next few weeks i will lose 1 more full shot

SaveOurLyric

Russman wrote: »

Couldn't agree more.
So, if the ESR doesn't catch bandits, what's the point of it ? (not asking you directly, but in general)
If its to get rid of the time gap between an improver improving and their handicap catching up (which it naturally will), then it arguably looks like its just a begrudgers' rule to stop people who haven't reached "their level", from winning.

Is it this year or next year the trial period runs to ?

Not everything in handicap life has to be about catching bandits.
The point of the ESR is to match handicaps more closely to playing ability. It has worked.
It is not a begrudger's rule because it reduces the possibility of people who havent reached "their level" - that the whole point of the handicap system - that all golfers tee it up on a given day with an equal chance of winning.

SaveOurLyric

HarshOstrich wrote: »

I have gone down quite abit thanks to ESR
it took 2 off me earlier in year and then 1 more when recently
im quite happy knowing if i shoot 40 points in next few weeks i will lose 1 more full shot

A perfect case of ESR working correctly (if anything even still to 'gently'). Beating your handicap by 4 shots or more 5 times within months is way beyond the odds if the handicap was correctly matched to current playing ability, and shows how slow the old system was with catching up with this type of handicap correction (no criticism of Ostrich here - just the system performing better to this type of scoring).

SaveOurLyric

Russman wrote: »

Bearing that in mind, I'd wonder how many of us know more people that got hit and deserved it, versus people who got hit and, if we're honest, aren't bandits and didn't deserve it. Obviously the handicap Nazi$ who think everyone who hits a good shot is a bandit and should be cut will disagree

Again its NOTHING to do with banditism (or National Socialism).
It is not a 'catching' of someone. It is not a punishment of someone. It is not about hobbling someone from winning some loot.
It is about improving a mathematical algorithm to best accurately reflect in a number a golfer's current playing level, relative to others.