Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
National Postcodes to be introduced
Options
Comments
-
Unlikely, because Atomic Small Area Codes were already created for statistical use and were used in the last census. Min number of properties 60-70 to protect privacy and all roughly equal numbers - the code itself is not important as it does not have to be in public domain. http://www.researchgate.net/publicat...eas_in_Ireland...was the design of the code being driven by government requirements - especially CSO requirements...
Just before the name "eircode" was announced, govt. ministers had been referrring to it a the "letterbox code"; not "postcode" or "location code".
"Letterbox code" possibly indicates that the ability to deliver a property tax bill or a water charge bill to a specific property address, and then tick off that property location later as "paid" became a high priority in the final incarnation of the design.0 -
The tendering process was somewhat "incestous" in that some of the persons/entities involved in drawing it up were also involved in the foreign based consortium that eventually won it.
Ans some of the persons/entities that might have produced a better proposal, and were based here in Ireland, were excluded by a bizarre requirement to have an existing financial turnover of several million euro (I can't remember the exact figure offhand) The usefulness or significance of this onerous restriction was never explained.
If this is true, it smells of what might go on in a third world country.
(I will refrain from suggesting a link between the design of the Eircode and a third world country......)
A system should be judged on the intelligence of its design. Not on the "turnover" (a quaint old English language term for Revenues). Dickensian .....0 -
The tendering process was somewhat "incestuous" in that some of the persons/entities involved in drawing it up were also involved in the foreign based consortium that eventually won it.
And some of the persons/entities that might have produced a better proposal, and were based here in Ireland, were excluded by a bizarre requirement to have an existing financial turnover of several million euro (I can't remember the exact figure offhand) The usefulness or significance of this onerous restriction was never explained.
because of its value it would have to be posted in OJEC and its not uncommon to require a minimum turnover in these journal postings, i can't speak for this tender, but in general, the minimum turnover is used to ensure the company is in good standing and not likely to go bust after the contract is awarded and leave the client high and dry0 -
Unlikely, because Atomic Small Area Codes were already created for statistical use and were used in the last census. Min number of properties 60-70 to protect privacy and all roughly equal numbers - the code itself is not important as it does not have to be in public domain. http://www.researchgate.net/publicat...eas_in_Ireland
Just before the name "eircode" was announced, govt. ministers had been referrring to it a the "letterbox code"; not "postcode" or "location code".
"Letterbox code" possibly indicates that the ability to deliver a property tax bill or a water charge bill to a specific property address, and then tick off that property location later as "paid" became a high priority in the final incarnation of the design.
Fine - you can achieve the same thing by giving each address a street name, building number, town name and simple postcode. If required (eg for standardisation) the postcode + street name can be given a 6 or 7 digit code (non-published, available to subscribers only etc national code) - to which you add the building number. This allows you to determine if the grossly over-priced water charges etc are paid etc. ie proposed water charges are the highest in Europe per M3 of water aside from a few German lander and Denmark (places that enjoy much much dryer climates than Ireland), where in return for which one gets decent water that one can drink out of the tap without an expensive home based filtration system or buying bottled water etc.
In any event you need to take on board that the postcode has a wide spectrum of sticky use in the economy as a whole. It can't just be a PPSN for properties in terms of water use, property tax etc. Aside from being a breach of personal privacy, it makes the code less usable, and if someone decides to use it, it will be expensive.
The postcode concept has been hijacked by bureaucrats in Ireland, for their own self centered needs. One suspect you might be speaking for them?0 -
because of its value it would have to be posted in OJEC and its not uncommon to require a minimum turnover in these journal postings, i can't speak for this tender, but in general, the minimum turnover is used to ensure the company is in good standing and not likely to go bust after the contract is awarded and leave the client high and dry
The amount of revenue a company has is totally irrelevant to the design of an intelligent postcode. A small revenue is not a sign of not having "good standing". And if they get a government contract to design a postcode system, chances are they will not have a problem with their bank manager. It is back to y-combinator and all the companies they have spawned by giving them just $120,000 each.
If your idea of €€€€€€€ are the driving force in the country for selecting postcode service companies etc - the job should perhaps go to drug dealers or the Russian mafia or similar. Not that I am suggesting that Capita has anything to do with these organizations.0 -
Advertisement
-
The amount of revenue a company has is totally irrelevant to the design of an intelligent postcode. A small revenue is not a sign of not having "good standing". And if they get a government contract to design a postcode system, chances are they will not have a problem with their bank manager. It is back to y-combinator and all the companies they have spawned by giving them just $120,000 each.
If your idea of €€€€€€€ are the driving force in the country for selecting postcode service companies etc - the job should perhaps go to drug dealers or the Russian mafia or similar. Not that I am suggesting that Capita has anything to do with these organizations.
Im not defending the selection in anyway, I'm just trying to provide a reason for the requirement to have a certain turnover,
you're right insofar as having money makes no odds to designing a postcode, but the OJEC is not just purely for postcodes, and the turnover IS important for these type of contracts, it shows stability and provides security in terms of support for the maintenance, as this contract wasn't just for the design, but also the maintenance of the system.
it does make sense that you'd want to award that to a company with a proven track record of revenue generation and not just a fly by night.
anyway I'm speaking generally when i say that for an OJEC contract, turnover is important
I've been involved in a few major contracts that went to tender and from my experience people are very nervous awarding major contracts to start up companies or ones that aren't all that big0 -
If you dig back into this thread a few months you'll see there were numerous instances of Dail questions being asked of former minister Rabbitte about this.
The setting of a €40 million turnover for this tender was investigated by the EU procurement unit and it and related conditions were found to breach EU regulations. The Taoiseach's office was advised of this in November 2013. However Pat Rabbitte denied any breach twice on the record of the Dail. The reaction of Alex White is now awaited. It should also be noted that the contract was awarded in Oct 2013 even though the Taoiseach's office and Dept of Comms were aware on an ongoing EU investigation!
The tender was also adjudged to have breached EU and Irish best practice in that it did not break the tender into lots (one for design and one for implementation) to allow participation of SME's and minimisation of turnover requirements. Again there has been no recognition of this from Govt.
I really don't think an indigenous company should be considered "not in good standing" because they cannot show a turnover of €40 million.
And of the course the reverse is also true; the mafia is not necessarily "in good standing" because they can.0 -
If you dig back into this thread a few months you'll see there were numerous instances of Dail questions being asked of former minister Rabbitte about this.
The setting of a €40 million turnover for this tender was investigated by the EU procurement unit and it and related conditions were found to breach EU regulations. The Taoiseach's office was advised of this in November 2013. However Pat Rabbitte denied any breach twice on the record of the Dail. The reaction of Alex White is now awaited. It should also be noted that the contract was awarded in Oct 2013 even though the Taoiseach's office and Dept of Comms were aware on an ongoing EU investigation!
The tender was also adjudged to have breached EU and Irish best practice in that it did not break the tender into lots (one for design and one for implementation) to allow participation of SME's and minimisation of turnover requirements. Again there has been no recognition of this from Govt.
I really don't think an indigenous company should be considered "not in good standing" because they cannot show a turnover of €40 million.
And of the course the reverse is also true; the mafia is not necessarily "in good standing" because they can.
the EU's response: "After having received the requested clarifications from the Irish authorities, the Commission closed the file. Based on the available information, the Commission departments could not establish any violation of EU public procurement law that would justify the opening of an infringement procedure."
lets stick to facts here
im also not sure what EU and Irish "best practice" you refer to? under what legislation or document are you referring? and adjudged by whom?0 -
I've been involved in a few major contracts that went to tender and from my experience people are very nervous awarding major contracts to start up companies or ones that aren't all that big
Perhaps this thought process is part of the reason why Ireland is so dependent on "Silicon Valley" start-ups to generate jobs, economic activity etc?
Distorted judgement. Inability to recognize a winning idea? and give it "$120,000 for a 7% stake, which might be worth $100 million plus in a few years", or rather to take the risk on a winning idea. Which brings one back to the root of the topic. The postcode system which I and some others are advocating is the normal European postcode - used everywhere aside from Britain, Gibraltar, and Malta. Within and without the EU - the 4 to 6 digit postcode before the town name is the norm in the majority of the world - Europe, Russia, China, most of Latin America. I'm not asking for anybody to put their million euros on the line and re-invent the postcode, like a mobile phone app.
Because it would be a solution in search of a product if they so did.0 -
Perhaps this thought process is part of the reason why Ireland is so dependent on "Silicon Valley" start-ups to generate jobs, economic activity etc?
Distorted judgement. Inability to recognize a winning idea? and give it "$120,000 for a 7% stake, which might be worth $100 million plus in a few years", or rather to take the risk on a winning idea. Which brings one back to the root of the topic. The postcode system which I and some others are advocating is the normal European postcode - used everywhere aside from Britain, Gibraltar, and Malta. Within and without the EU - the 4 to 6 digit postcode before the town name is the norm in the majority of the world - Europe, Russia, China, most of Latin America. I'm not asking for anybody to put their million euros on the line and re-invent the postcode, like a mobile phone app.
Because it would be a solution in search of a product if they so did.
im not saying its the right way, its just my experience, and theres a huge difference in awarding a major contract for a piece of national infrastructure and funding a start up with a good or winning idea.0 -
Advertisement
-
the EU's response: "After having received the requested clarifications from the Irish authorities, the Commission closed the file. Based on the available information, the Commission departments could not establish any violation of EU public procurement law that would justify the opening of an infringement procedure."
lets stick to facts here
im also not sure what EU and Irish "best practice" you refer to? under what legislation or document are you referring? and adjudged by whom?
I think if it came to a European court I could make a loud and clear case for the Eircode and the lack of a road/street address, as is the norm in the rest of the EU, to be a breach of the Single Market. In the same way as dumping un-treated sewage into a river or the sea is. It may not be a violation of public procurement policies - but it sure is a violation of basic 21st century rights of logistics and access. Making life harder for anybody engaged in visiting or delivering etc.
China has crated a huge economy by not conforming to EU pollution requirements. You can't see your hand in front of your face in Beijing much of the time. Not being able to identify your customer's premises which might be even with eyesight view is little different because the roads have no signposted names etc0 -
im not saying its the right way, its just my experience, and theres a huge difference in awarding a major contract for a piece of national infrastructure and funding a start up with a good or winning idea.
Not in my books. Google needed capital day one. Bright people who recognized the googler's intelligence gave them money. Look at Google maps today. It covers the planet down to the L-2334 road. Y-combinator (if you listened to the netcast) are more interested in the people they are backing rather than the business idea of the moment. Because they know if you pick the right people the system they end up with will work. Even if they make a few mistaken en route. You learn by mistakes.
Which is what I hope Eircode will do!0 -
Not in my books. Google needed capital day one. Bright people who recognized the googler's intelligence gave them money. Look at Google maps today. It covers the planet down to the L-2334 road. Y-combinator (if you listened to the netcast) are more interested in the people they are backing rather than the business idea of the moment. Because they know if you pick the right people the system they end up with will work. Even if they make a few mistaken en route. You learn by mistakes.
Which is what I hope Eircode will do!
but thats totally different, thats making an investment in a (at the time) emerging technology for profitable gain.
thats not what the government was doing here, they were picking a supplier to deliver a service0 -
I think if it came to a European court I could make a loud and clear case for the Eircode and the lack of a road/street address, as is the norm in the rest of the EU, to be a breach of the Single Market. In the same way as dumping un-treated sewage into a river or the sea is. It may not be a violation of public procurement policies - but it sure is a violation of basic 21st century rights of logistics and access. Making life harder for anybody engaged in visiting or delivering etc.
China has crated a huge economy by not conforming to EU pollution requirements. You can't see your hand in front of your face in Beijing much of the time. Not being able to identify your customer's premises which might be even with eyesight view is little different because the roads have no signposted names etc
you've gone wildly off on a tangent here with irrelevant comparisons and the Single Market was designed for uniformed legislation to enable businesses in the EU do business, it wouldn't even look at address structures. Its purely for policy making.0 -
Within and without the EU - the 4 to 6 digit postcode before the town name is the norm in the majority of the world - Europe, Russia, China, most of Latin America.
Maybe I'm missing the point here, how would a 6 digit postcode cover Ireland?
In 2006, we were building 80k homes, A million addresses would run out of space in a very short time.0 -
Carawaystick wrote: »Maybe I'm missing the point here, how would a 6 digit postcode cover Ireland?
In 2006, we were building 80k homes, A million addresses would run out of space in a very short time.
An alpha-numeric code would extend it.
By how much, I don't know.0 -
An alpha-numeric code would extend it.
By how much, I don't know.
There's 10 digits
there's 36 alphanumeric "Characters" if you only use one case. However 0 o O and I 1 l are confusingly similar to be used in a sane system.
Lets say you only use one case, and don't use O or I
then you've 34 characters
so 6^34 >> 6^10
Of course if you can't make even a fermi estimation of this, I don't think you should decide on the system to be used.0 -
Carawaystick wrote: »Maybe I'm missing the point here, how would a 6 digit postcode cover Ireland?
In 2006, we were building 80k homes, A million addresses would run out of space in a very short time.
In every country that has a postcode system, bar Iran, a postcode defines a zone of buildings - not an individual house or office etc. In the British system a single postcode is typically shared by about 25 houses. This system was developed when computer technology was not as developed as today - and their sorting system sorted based on the postcode.
In other countries, postcode defines roughly the equivalent of a Dublin postal district, sometimes less. eg Denmark, similar size to Ireland, has a four digit postcode which typically defines a street in Copenhagen or the room with the PO Boxes in the local post office.
In a country where every building has a street name and building number, eg Bahnhofstrasse 234, that street has a hidden (not used by the public) 6 digit code to point to each street. So if Bahnhofstrasse is in postcode 8001, (the non-published postcode for it might be 8001 242571 0234). This makes it user friendly for the individual or business - ie to just have to remember 8001. Systems that require precise building identification can use the database of valid street names and maximum house number info to create a standards based building specific internal code.
If you call up a company (eg water supplier, cable TV etc), and give them your new address, they will first ask for the postcode (8001), and then the building number (234) and then the street name and the person at the other end might just enter BA (being the first two characters of the street name). The rest of the address will auto-fill on screen, and your location will be stored in their system as 80012425710234.
The benefits of this include a single standard address being used by everybody, minimal keyboard keystrokes - 8001 + 234 + BA = 9 characters. No language problems with the postcode (letters of the alphabet are pronounced differently in each language - the English letter "E" is different to the Irish letter "E" and the French letter "E". It greatly reduces the likelihood of transcription errors (eg typos in D22 8UFW). All the person in the street has to remember is the name of the road, the house number, and the 4 digit postcode - which postcode is the same as everybody else in their locality.
If the householder is shopping in say Aldi, the checkout operator might ask the customer for their postcode - which is just 4 digits - easy to enter in a point of sale system. Also easy to enter in a telephone keypad. Aldi can use the postcode data to help decide where it should site new shops - because they will be able to see where their customers using existing stores come from. The customer has no reason to worry about giving personal information away because a 4 digit postcode is not personal - while D04 G8TW is personal to where you live.0 -
you've gone wildly off on a tangent here with irrelevant comparisons and the Single Market was designed for uniformed legislation to enable businesses in the EU do business, it wouldn't even look at address structures. Its purely for policy making.
No I have not. The single market is all about making goods available EU wide, able to cross borders with no customs delays and get delivered easily. To maximize competition. While the customs friction has gone at the frontier into Ireland, it is still a very challenging environment to deliver one's goods to the customer - mainly because of the absence of systematic road addresses. This is no different to the traditional roadblocks to free trade one finds in third world countries - parts of Africa etc.0 -
A few Swisspost brochures explaining their postcode related services for business and government users - clearly thought out systems that take account of everybody's needs - including local language variations, etc. They entire system is based on a 4 digit public postcode for a country with about 8 million people.
GeoPost Coordinates
Building addresses pinpointed by precise georeference coordinates (system based on 4 digit postcodes) in Switzerland.
http://www.post.ch/en/post-startseite/post-adress-services-match/post-gis/post-gis-beratung/post-gis-geopost-coordinates
Digital postcode map of Switzerland
http://www.post.ch/en/post-startseite/post-adress-services-match/post-gis/post-gis-geoportal/post-geopost-zipcodes.pdf
Barcoding and addressing mail in Switzerland
http://www.post.ch/en/post-startseite/post-geschaeftskunden/post-briefe/post-briefe-erhalten/post-briefe-unzustellbare-sendungen/pm-einschreiben-anleitung-barcode.pdf
Error message codes
http://www.post.ch/en/post-startseite/post-geschaeftskunden/post-logistik/post-e-log/post-datatransfer-cug/post-datatransfer-cug-paket/post-datatransfer-fehlercodes.xlsx0 -
Advertisement
-
Already August so postcodes will be in actual use in 8 months time. The format has all been decided and public sector databases are being pre-coded. Value added resellers are all preparing new products and services to use Eircode.
Imagine what the level of opposition would have been to a decision to number every dwelling and name every road! Eircode is a reasonable compromise in my opinion.0 -
I see you are again quoting the Rabbites < extremely careful > choice of words.the EU's response: "After having received the requested clarifications from the Irish authorities, the Commission closed the file. Based on the available information, the Commission departments could not establish any violation of EU public procurement law that would justify the opening of an infringement procedure."
lets stick to facts here
im also not sure what EU and Irish "best practice" you refer to? under what legislation or document are you referring? and adjudged by whom?
The file is now closed, but what is omitted is that breaches were found and Irish Authorities required to take action and report in writing when that action was taken - this has never happened - as confirmed by EU.
When they say the file is closed, it means the EU chose not take the matter to European Court but placed the responsibility on Irish authorities and also on complainant to take legal action in Ireland. However no SME complainant would have the resources to take the state to court. Checkmate. Lobbyists, insiders and backhanders win, everyone else loses.
All the facts are now in the hands of the new minister, Alex White. We await his review of those facts. Maybe he will take the easy option and just stay out of it. Or maybe he will choose to intervene by wiping the slate clean. Review the whole dodgy process, and instead get a decent functional useful system that will not be an ongoing financial liability both to the state and to SME users, such as the hauliers who have already expressed their dissatisfaction.
"Best practice" here is the instruction regarding inclusivity for SME's in regard to tenders for public contracts; Finance Circular 10/10..it is particularly important that SME's are not hindered in competing for contracts which they could perform effectively....
... contracting authorities are strongly reminded that the levels they set for suitability criteria (especially in relation to a potential tenderer's turnover levels) must be both justifiable and proportionate to the needs of the contract.
In this context, and in a situation where an entity involved in setting out the tender also gets involved in competing for that same tender, there is an absolute necessity to stick rigidly to best practice. Otherwise corruption and dodgy dealings become the order of the day.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 19092
Do you wonder as you pass a public loo of the 'modern' pay type that is like a cabin with a door that opens when a coin (20c I beleive) is inserted and ask yourself who uses these things. I have yet to see anyone emerge from one. These were installed a (large) number of years ago to save the local authorities money by removing the cost of maintenence of the public loos. Now these loos frighten many (most) people because they fear that mid session the door will fly open leaving themselves exposed and so they will not use them.
They were installed all over the country on a contract basis where the local authority was responsible for a minimum charge if revenue did not meet the contract minimum. These contracts were for decadesand of course no-one using the loo meant that the local authority was locked into a contract that was worthless and the public had no acceptable public loo.
Now we have a repeat of this sorry saga with the postcode. It is ill conceived and will probably not be used by the public because it is nonsense, but it is a contract for decades and worth millions to the contractor.
Why does history repeat itself?0 -
It will be used, if the civil service are instructed to only deal with correspondence that has the postcode added to the address of the "customer", e.g. no postcode, no benefit payments!Now we have a repeat of this sorry saga with the postcode. It is ill conceived and will probably not be used by the public because it is nonsense0 -
Join Date:Posts: 19092
Deleted User wrote: »It will be used, if the civil service are instructed to only deal with correspondence that has the postcode added to the address of the "customer", e.g. no postcode, no benefit payments!
Not everyone gets benefits, besides the Government will just add it and they will not pay to use it.
If the charges for use of the system are as indicated, I think most SMEs will avoid it, and overseas operations will also avoid it if it is as defined as it is useless for analysis without huge software development. An Post will still deliver mail using the current system for mail without post codes as most mail will not be coded.
So who is left?0 -
Already August so postcodes will be in actual use in 8 months time. The format has all been decided and public sector databases are being pre-coded. Value added resellers are all preparing new products and services to use Eircode.
Imagine what the level of opposition would have been to a decision to number every dwelling and name every road! Eircode is a reasonable compromise in my opinion.
It is more important to get it right. Postcodes are sticky. There will be plenty of products for value added sellers to offer when the number one line of the address has been defined for each building in a standard manner. Lots of company databases that will need to be cleaned (not just postcoded). There is very little difference between the work to be done to create the original Eircode and the work required to tag each building with its road name and building number on that road. Much of the work is already in the Geodirectory. Rural road names need to be rationalized (devised from townland names), and it is a simple matter to create a computer algo to convert the position of a house or other building along a road into a metric building number. Because the lat and long of each building is already known.
Value added service providers who develop a business based on the original eircode will not have a sustainable business. And if certain government agencies think that they can withhold service from somebody who does not supply their Eircode..... good luck to them.
The creation of a standardised national address database will create far more opportunities for service providers than an ill-conceived, fake postcode.0 -
We're definitely not the only EU country with vague rural addresses.
French rural ones outside villages aren't very easy to find either.0 -
Sam Russell wrote: »Why does history repeat itself?
Because of the lack of direct democracy in Ireland. Politicians seem to care far less about the quality of life and the service provided to the customer of a government. And more about themselves being re-elected.
Contrast the dysfunctionality of Ireland with the precision and customer orientation of the way Switzerland works. It is down to what the public are voting for. In Ireland people are voting for a person. In Switzerland people vote for an objective (eg will we put a metro system in Zurich - which was defeated twice. Zurich has the best public transport of any city on the planet with no metro.) Every gov spend in Zurich in excess of 10 million CHF requires the public to vote. Typically it is done after church on Sunday and the system is so well oiled, the results are out before dinner time.0 -
We're definitely not the only EU country with vague rural addresses.
French rural ones outside villages aren't very easy to find either.
Like where please? In my experience the road name is a route Cantonale or a route du (name of next village). It might say km 3,5 rather than 3500 in some places.
Aside from the French system - which is one of the oldest in Europe, Ireland should be focusing on the best system - like the Swiss system where every road has an identifier and every building a number. However the end user is only required to know a 4 digit number, their street name and building number on that street.0 -
Advertisement
-
Like where please? In my experience the road name is a route Cantonale or a route du (name of next village). It might say km 3,5 rather than 3500 in some places.
Aside from the French system - which is one of the oldest in Europe, Ireland should be focusing on the best system - like the Swiss system where every road has an identifier and every building a number. However the end user is only required to know a 4 digit number, their street name and building number on that street.
In the Southwest they're as vague as Family Name + Nearest Village + Post Code (which is just repeating the nearest village name in code).
It's only a problem for actual rural farm houses though. Ireland would have a much higher percentage of those relative to villages.0
![[Deleted User]](/applications/dashboard/design/images/defaulticon.png)
This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement