National Postcodes to be introduced

TheBustedFlush

Sam Russell wrote: »

The cost would be zero for most users for a properly designed post code system. If a 4 or 5 dgit code was used, it would cost zero once the code was designed. Most users would find that sufficient and so not want the premium (hidden) last 4 or 5 digits to identify down to the building. It is these last digits that cost the money to maintain.

Using numbers reminiscent of the phone numbers (1 for Dublin 21 for Cork, 91 for Galway, 51 for Waterford, etc.) that is already there, and since the numbers are allocated by telephone exchanges, they are roughly on population density, the 5 digit code would give about 300 or so houses/buildings per code. (1.5 million houses divide by 5,000).

The house number would reduce this to maybe one house, and together with the street name to definitely one house. New house gets the same post code as neighbour.

No cost once established except for the hidden code and that should be paid for by the users of the hidden part.

.

Thanks that makes sense - that model has been looked at in a number of countries. I presume there's no cost for most users for the eircode here - householders - since they'll have access to the website whenever they need to look up something, there'll only be a charge for those who want to access the code database numerous times for use within their businesses on a daily basis?

Sam Russell

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

Thanks that makes sense - that model has been looked at in a number of countries. I presume there's no cost for most users for the eircode here - householders - since they'll have access to the website whenever they need to look up something, there'll only be a charge for those who want to access the code database numerous times for use within their businesses on a daily basis?

I know it makes sense, but the proposal for Eircode does not.

Edit: It would have the advantage that most people would readily identify the phone prefix with postcode and so remeber much of it without effort.

TheBustedFlush

Sam Russell wrote: »

I know it makes sense, but the proposal for Eircode does not.

Edit: It would have the advantage that most people would readily identify the phone prefix with postcode and so remeber much of it without effort.

Do you mean the how eircode proposes to charge for use of its databases doesn't make sense?

ozmo

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

I presume there's no cost for most users for the eircode here - householders - since they'll have access to the website whenever they need to look up something

Again - assuming they are online - and even with internet - no use to call an ambulance to a football field.

I also heard the will be limiting access to the public site by monitoring IP address's - :rolleyes:
(wont work of course with NAT, dynamically assigned ISP ips and mobile phones).

Sam Russell

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

Do you mean the how eircode proposes to charge for use of its databases doesn't make sense?

No, the basic Eircode concept with randomized codes.

Tow

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

Don't agree with this thinking - it's flawed.

What's flawed with it?

The OP outlines how an Eircode postcode will work, as their own documentation. I have a copy of it sitting in front of me.

As for costs, the bulk of the data already exists in GeoDirectory, An Post have been forced to give GeoDirectory to Eircode. GeoDirectory currently generates money for An Post, this revenue stream will dry up.

An Post are far from the most efficient semi state organisation in the country, but do you really think it would cost them €25m for them to feed the GeoDirectory data through an algorithm and mail merge the results to 2M postcards and deliver them?

Impetus

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

And you're still on the wrong track. I was asking Sam Russell to answer the question about who would pay for his proposed solution. Not sure why you're getting involved on that at all, since you didn't propose the solution.

Who pays Capita is the same - irrespective of the finished product design. The people who want the full blown database holding building numbers, grid references, etc. The public gets to benefit from the alternative solution by having street names and building numbers for all addresses - things they can relate to. The people in the market for Capita's paid product are likely to be insurance companies (so they can impose British style "postcode blight" on properties in high claim clusters), logistics companies - eg An Post, Fedex, DHL, UPS and dozens of other delivery services for big and small items. There is also government, telecommunications/fibre optic/cable TV providers and other marketing and statistics related data collectors. Also companies in the software business and some websites that want to add address verification and rapid address entry to their website or software package.

Basically Capita is doing a catch up exercise for about half the buildings in the country - giving them some form of ID, consistent with the ID they give to established mainly urban addresses that already have the street name and house number bit. (Admittedly there are some urban properties, eg houses with names and business parks that have no road names and building numbers within the business park - which will have to be fixed too). The building ID should be hidden, and for privacy reasons, licensed on a basis that provides for some form of regulation to protect data privacy. From the users' perspective the published simple code should be just that, simple.

So one is not saying fire capita, or the public servants who were responsible for coming up with the Eircode structure. Most people in the simple code camp I suspect are trying to get a better deal for everybody.

The existing deal in my view came from a committee of public servants and maybe a few other business interests. However there was no intelligent representation from the general public or people who have experience of a modern addressing system, as used in most continental countries.

Impetus

One other related issue that occurred to me over the weekend.

I was looking for a rural house in the suburbs of a town, and there was a rats nest of little roads - almost like a suburban estate. But this was divided between large gardens and farm fields.

Let's call it Ballytownland. The best way to find the correct road in these cases is perhaps to call the roads nnn Ballytownland Road 1, nnn Ballytownland 2 etc. That would remove the naming difficulty and assuming the roads ended with logical numbers, one could negotiate the maze with ease. nnn being the building number along that road.

eg

290 BALLYTOWNLAND ROAD 1
4500 KILDARE

In the detailed database, this would point to a complex building number - say 4500 2144 6632 which could be the four digit postcode followed by the 8 digit number already assigned to the building in the Geo directory. Other fields would include the co-ordinates, type of premises code etc.

It would be a simple matter to put up a small sign showing road 1, road 2 etc within the townland - which would be simpler than trying to put full road names on metal signs and trying to attach them to ditches and hedges etc. The 1 and 2 could be in a designed logo box style, so people who recognise this number as the road number. They could be put up on a telephone pole or staked into the ground. Best done using luminous background.

The Singing Beard

I used to live in The Netherlands.

The Dutch postcodes are the best.

The format is 1234AB.

Where 1 is the region 2 narrows it down further to town 3 is the part of the town 4 narrows things down again, the the first letter is the actual street and the second one is the side of the street.

The house number can be added on the end.

So, for example, 1234AB12 is sufficient to point to one exact house, no province, town or street needed:-D

If I posted my code you could find exactly where I lived with a single click of google maps :-p

SpaceTime

Strawwwbreeezz wrote: »

I used to live in The Netherlands.

The Dutch postcodes are the best.

The format is 1234AB.

Where 1 is the region 2 narrows it down further to town 3 is the part of the town 4 narrows things down again, the the first letter is the actual street and the second one is the side of the street.

The house number can be added on the end.

So, for example, 1234AB12 is sufficient to point to one exact house, no province, town or street needed:-D

If I posted my code you could find exactly where I lived with a single click of google maps :-p

You couldn't possibly have something that cheap and simple! What would the Department of Administrative Affairs do?

Have you never watched the true-to-life documentary series Yes Minister ?

Tow

SpaceTime wrote: »

Have you never watched the true-to-life documentary series Yes Minister ?

I have been to a few meetings with representatives from different government departments. There is no will from them to communicate with each other. They sit at the meeting table as far away from each other as possible and during tea breaks huddle around in their own groups not saying a word to each other. It is a sight to see and no wonder the country collapsed.

Curly Judge

Interesting article in today's Indo.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/eu-raps-state-over-tendering-for-new-postcodes-30498098.html

Are people waking up at last to this fiasco?

SpaceTime

The logistics industry is starting to notice how useless it's going to be. It's pretty obvious their views were ignored even though they're probably the major user of addressing.

Strawwwbreeezz

Strawwwbreeezz wrote: »

I used to live in The Netherlands.

The Dutch postcodes are the best.

The format is 1234AB.

Where 1 is the region 2 narrows it down further to town 3 is the part of the town 4 narrows things down again, the the first letter is the actual street and the second one is the side of the street.

The house number can be added on the end.

So, for example, 1234AB12 is sufficient to point to one exact house, no province, town or street needed:-D

If I posted my code you could find exactly where I lived with a single click of google maps :-p

The UK postcode system is similar to that, except that the last three letters bring you down to a street or part of a street.

A letter will get to its destination with just the postcode and house number.

TheBustedFlush

Impetus wrote: »

The existing deal in my view came from a committee of public servants and maybe a few other business interests. However there was no intelligent representation from the general public or people who have experience of a modern addressing system, as used in most continental countries.

Love the "no intelligent representation from the general public" line.

Sounds about right.

recedite

Impetus wrote: »

I was looking for a rural house in the suburbs of a town, and there was a rats nest of little roads - almost like a suburban estate. But this was divided between large gardens and farm fields.

Let's call it Ballytownland. The best way to find the correct road in these cases is perhaps to call the roads nnn Ballytownland Road 1, nnn Ballytownland 2 etc. That would remove the naming difficulty and assuming the roads ended with logical numbers, one could negotiate the maze with ease. nnn being the building number along that road...

Strawwwbreeezz wrote: »

The Dutch postcodes are the best.

The format is 1234AB.

Where 1 is the region 2 narrows it down further to town 3 is the part of the town 4 narrows things down again, the the first letter is the actual street and the second one is the side of the street.

The house number can be added on the end.
If I posted my code you could find exactly where I lived with a single click of google maps :-p

These two suggestions are basically the same. They were good ideas in their time; maybe 40 years ago, before the era of GPS sat navs.

I'm not sure how the Dutch postcode is going to translate onto google maps, unless you mean to do a "google" search for the postcode first, in which case you could also google an Irish address without any postcode and it might also bring up a google map.

Neither of these postcode ideas could provide the actual location of the house to a sat nav, unless the satnav also had access to an up to date database in which the postcode was linked to geo co-ordinates.
Neither could provide the location of a building site, a car park, a beach, a park etc..

What happens when a new house gets built in this "rats nest" of low density housing? Are you going to change the postcode number of all the houses further along the road by bumping them all up one number?

recedite

Curly Judge wrote: »

Interesting article in today's Indo.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/eu-raps-state-over-tendering-for-new-postcodes-30498098.html

Are people waking up at last to this fiasco?

Very interesting.
Also helps to explain the cry of < apparent > lament from Capita representatives; that there was "no intelligent representation from the general public".
Just about everyone else was shut out of the process.

TheBustedFlush

recedite wrote: »

Very interesting.
Also helps to explain the cry of < apparent > lament from Capita representatives; that there was "no intelligent representation from the general public".
Just about everyone else was shut out of the process.

It ignores one important fact though.

tvc15

I don't see how the logistics industry has such an issue with the postcode, as long as Google and at least one major GPS company implement it then it does exactly what they need

Capita seems to have gone down the cheapo route for post codes. They are simply taking geodirectory and adding random codes to every address, besides taking out swear words and and a fee other tweaks i cannot see how this is costing so much money. There is literally no geographical knowledge required on their part

That said, aside from the cost I think it makes sense not to work in geography into the code. It would take a serious amount of time to get right but more importantly it is a political can of worms telling someone where they live and grouping different people together. Try that and you will have every local politician in the country on to you with local issues, some down to snobbery, some GAA related, some property tax related etc etc.

TheBustedFlush

tvc15 wrote: »

I don't see how the logistics industry has such an issue with the postcode, as long as Google and at least one major GPS company implement it then it does exactly what they need

Agree completely on the Google plus TomTom or maybe Here combo.

tvc15

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

Agree completely on the Google plus TomTom or maybe Here combo.

My assumption with tge complaining is that they have constantly said delivery cost are high due to no postcode and now that they are getting one, they don't want to reduce costs

Sam Russell

tvc15 wrote: »

That said, aside from the cost I think it makes sense not to work in geography into the code. It would take a serious amount of time to get right but more importantly it is a political can of worms telling someone where they live and grouping different people together. Try that and you will have every local politician in the country on to you with local issues, some down to snobbery, some GAA related, some property tax related etc etc.

If the code is numeric only, and follows the same type of logic of the telephone number system, none of those objections would follow. No-one objects to their phone number being D6W as opposed to D26 - they just use it as 0146 xxxx or 0160 xxxx or whatever. No snob or GAA involvement.

The granularity of the Dublin postal districts is too large, and the addition of random codes after that is just daft. How will anyone remember even their own code?

The proposed Eircode system needs to be re-thought out with intelligent input such has been suggested many times in this thread.

Tow

tvc15 wrote: »

That said, aside from the cost I think it makes sense not to work in geography into the code.

How would that cause a problem?
A system which just converts grid coordinates into a short alpha numeric postcode with confusing letters removed (I,O etc) and a modulus check built in. The system could be based on there the front entrance to a building is. The building is where it is, if people want to argue over parish boundaries they can and it is immune from politicians etc bribing An Post officials from designating areas as their more 'upmarket' neighbours.

Tow

Sam Russell wrote: »

If the code is numeric only.

There is no need for a numeric only system. This is one area Eircode is doing correctly. The Eircode character code Set is 25 characters long and designed to "avoid OCR and verbal confusion".

0 to 9 and A,C,D,E,F,H,K,N,P,R,T,V,W,X,Y

tvc15

Tow wrote: »

How would that cause a problem?
A system which just converts grid coordinates into a short alpha numeric postcode with confusing letters removed (I,O etc) and a modulus check built in. The system could be based on there the front entrance to a building is. The building is where it is, if people want to argue over parish boundaries they can and it is immune from politicians etc bribing An Post officials from designating areas as their more 'upmarket' neighbours.

As the devil's advocate I would see a few issues around multiple addresses in one building like apartment blocks, the fact that anyone could create a postcode for any location whether there is an address or not, irregular usage when people guess at locations and possibly the biggest reason of all being that you described the loc8 code which they would be accused of copying (did they not enter the tender?)

tvc15

Tow wrote: »

There is no need for a numeric only system. This is one area Eircode is doing correctly. The Eircode character code Set is 25 characters long and designed to "avoid OCR and verbal confusion".

0 to 9 and A,C,D,E,F,H,K,N,P,R,T,V,W,X,Y

Where is that list from? Looks very reduced

Red Nissan

tvc15 wrote: »

the loc8 code which they would be accused of copying (did they not enter the tender?)

Brilliant code that, about three/four years ago Loc8 were announcing themselves as the new postcode, then everything went quite.

Whatever about the the actual postcode, whatever get introduced HAS to be like the Loc8 or else the new post code won't be used.

Already Loc8 is free, and whilst Google CoOrdinates do the same thing, Loc8 is easier to put in a SatNav.

I was gutted when Loc8 failed to make the cut, not least that it was a Crosshaven based company.

Avada

I would be in favour of something like this being introduced in Ireland, in addition to postcodes

Tow

tvc15 wrote: »

Where is that list from? Looks very reduced

It is from Eircode and is for the random Unique ID (last 4 characters) part of the postcode. The Routing Key (1st 3 characters) consists of the letters only for the 1st character, 0 to 9 for the 2nd and 0 to 9 and W for the 3rd character. The W is to allow for D6W for Dublin 6 West.

tvc15

Tow wrote: »

It is from Eircode and is for the random Unique ID (last 4 characters) part of the postcode. The Routing Key (1st 3 characters) consists of the letters only for the 1st character, 0 to 9 for the 2nd and 0 to 9 and W for the 3rd character. The W is to allow for D6W for Dublin 6 West.

Is there somewhere that this info is available?