Israel - Palestine Conflict. Mod note in OP - updated 1st August

Nodin · 30-07-2014 03:50PM

jank wrote: »

Two things. You have continuously harped on about the 'real' reason why Israel are carrying out the current assault is that they are afraid of a unified Palestinian political body. Yet, now you claim that they were behind Fatah (who were defeated in 2006 elections) when they tried to wrestle back control from Hamas. If that was successful wouldn't there be a unified Palestinian political body now in Palestine, then why are Israel carrying out the latest assault..

?

jank wrote: »

Secondly, why are you so reluctant to call out Hamas for what they are, a terrorist group who are labelled as such by pretty much every international organisation in the world.

So again, are Hamas a terrorist group, yes or no.
You non-answer next time will indicate that they indeed are but for some reason wont want to admit it.

"terrorist" is a label forked out on non-state actors by their opponents. It's a meaningless title that's been fired at everyone from the IRA to the ANC in order to demonise the opposition.

wes · 30-07-2014 03:51PM

jank wrote: »

I do, yet there was about 20 posts tutting at the treatment of poor Lucas yet none about the 20 or so killed by Hamas for daring to object to war.

I am confused, I taught those who were killed for being spies, specifically aiding the IDF in killing Palestinians? If they were murdered for just protesting, then that is war crime, and should be condemned.

If they were killed for being spies, then that should be condemned due to the lack of a fair trial, but if its due to spying, then the 2 examples are not comparable.

jank · 30-07-2014 03:52PM

Nodin wrote: »

?

"terrorist" is a label forked out on non-state actors by their opponents. It's a meaningless title that's been fired at everyone from the IRA to the ANC in order to demonise the opposition.

So you refuse to call Hamas a terrorist organisation. Wow, just wow!

RustyNut · 30-07-2014 03:52PM

bboybaboy19 wrote: »

Is the 20000 civilians killed in the Afghan war mass murder too?

That might be a good topic for another thread but we are debating the slaughter of innocent men women and children in Palastine.

bumper234 · 30-07-2014 03:53PM

jank wrote: »

So you refuse to call Hamas a terrorist organisation. Wow, just wow!

Will you admit that Israel are committing war crimes?

Nodin · 30-07-2014 03:53PM

jank wrote: »

So you refuse to call Hamas a terrorist organisation. Wow, just wow!

It's a pointless label that's been utterly devalued. They called Mandela a terrorist ffs. I'll call them a loathsome organisation, a nasty bunch and so on, but "terrorist" is meaningless.

bboybaboy19 · 30-07-2014 03:54PM

RustyNut wrote: »

That might be a good topic for another thread but we are debating the slaughter of innocent men women and children in Palastine.

I'm just wondering why you'd consider one mass murder and not the other one..it's a simple yes/no answer.

Gringo180 · 30-07-2014 03:54PM

jank wrote: »

I do, yet there was about 20 posts tutting at the treatment of poor Lucas yet none about the 20 or so killed by Hamas for daring to object to war. See that is the fundamental difference between the sides. Israel can be dicks, they may have slapped the poor kid around a bit but apart from a bruise and his ego dented he is free to tell the world about his story. In Gaza, you are taken away behind a building, shot and your body dragged through the streets as a warning to others..... I know which treatment I would have preferred if I had the choice.

mod image snipped
Can we jointly condemn this action?

Do you not understand that the reason Hamas started to fire rockets is because the Israelis start locking up members of Hamas for no reason other than the fact that they wanted to join up with Fatah to make a majority government, then the Israelis went on to blame Hamas for the death of 3 israeli teeneagers even tho they have no evidence to back up this claim, and wait for it, they were murdered in the West Bank were there are no members of Hamas. Can you even agree that it was Israel that broke this ceasefire which started this conflict?

Donkey Oaty · 30-07-2014 03:54PM

Tuisceanch wrote: »

I wonder what Phil is up to in Eastenders.

He has converted to Islam and - against the advice of the local friendly cockney Muslims - has gone to Nigeria to fight with Boko Haram

or

He has become an Orthodox Jew and refuses to shake hands with women that he cannot be sure are not on their menstrual cycle, creating unexpected problems for the scriptwriters and VT editors.

FTA69 · 30-07-2014 03:56PM

jank wrote: »

So you refuse to call Hamas a terrorist organisation. Wow, just wow!

By the same criteria Israel are also terrorists; hence the pointlessness of the label. Nodin is correct, it's a pejorative term used to automatically discredit any non-state opposition to the status quo.

jank · 30-07-2014 03:56PM

wes wrote: »

I am confused, I taught those who were killed for being spies, specifically aiding the IDF in killing Palestinians? If they were murdered for just protesting, then that is war crime, and should be condemned.

If they were killed for being spies, then that should be condemned due to the lack of a fair trial, but if its due to spying, then the 2 examples are not comparable.

Yes, every anti-war protestor in Gaza is a 'spy'. Kangaroo courts and extra judicial justice is the norm in Gaza. I guess we will never find out the real story cause all the accused are already dead. Sure didn't they confess before a bullet blew their heads off.

RustyNut · 30-07-2014 03:56PM

bboybaboy19 wrote: »

I'm just wondering why you'd consider one mass murder and not the other one..it's a simple yes/no answer.

Where did I say that?

wes · 30-07-2014 03:57PM

jank wrote: »

So you refuse to call Hamas a terrorist organisation. Wow, just wow!

Terrorists are non-state actors, Hamas's are the defacto authority in Gaza (they even won an election, and are also a part of will be part of a unity Palestinian government), and as such they are not terrorists.

Having said that, there is certainly a great deal of evidence that Hamas are committing war crimes during the present conflict, but the same can be said of the IDF to a far greater extent.

bboybaboy19 · 30-07-2014 03:57PM

RustyNut wrote: »

Where did I say that?

I didn't say you did but your refusal to answer it speaks volumes.

So, do you consider the killing of the innocent afghans to be mass murder, yes or no?

notfromhere · 30-07-2014 03:58PM

Excellent precision shooting by the IDF in that video.

wes · 30-07-2014 03:58PM

jank wrote: »

Yes, every anti-war protestor in Gaza is a 'spy'.

Well, the way that the story is written it was very unclear what they were saying to me.

jank wrote: »

Kangaroo courts and extra judicial justice is the norm in Gaza. I guess we will never find out the real story cause all the accused are already dead. Sure didn't they confess before a bullet blew their heads off.

If what is being claimed is true, then as I said earlier its a crime, as no proper trials were conducted.

Tuisceanch · 30-07-2014 03:59PM

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

He has converted to Islam and - against the advice of the local friendly cockney Muslims - has gone to Nigeria to fight with Boko Haram

or

He has become an Orthodox Jew and refuses to shake hands with women that he cannot be sure are not on their menstrual cycle, creating unexpected problems for the scriptwriters and VT editors.

Wild unfounded speculation with the sole purpose of ruining my enjoyment of the wonders of TV reality.

Gringo180 · 30-07-2014 03:59PM

Nodin wrote: »

It's a pointless label that's been utterly devalued. They called Mandela a terrorist ffs. I'll call them a loathsome organisation, a nasty bunch and so on, but "terrorist" is meaningless.

"And you dare to call me a terrorist as you look down your gun"

jank · 30-07-2014 03:59PM

FTA69 wrote: »

By the same criteria Israel are also terrorists; hence the pointlessness of the label. Nodin is correct, it's a pejorative term used to automatically discredit any non-state opposition to the status quo.

They perjury themselves with their actions and their charter that denies the holocaust, calls for the killing of Jews and the genocide of Israelis.

KahBoom · 30-07-2014 04:00PM

The word 'terrorist' means "anyone the US/western-powers labels a terrorist", and little more than that - there is no consistency to the term at all, it is pretty much meaningless.

If the label had any consistency, then US drone bombings of funerals, and Israeli war crimes against civilians, can equally be labelled terrorist acts.

wes · 30-07-2014 04:00PM

jank wrote: »

They perjury themselves with their actions and their charter that denies the holocaust, calls for the killing of Jews and the genocide of Israelis.

And the settler colonial project is actively doing exactly that to Palestinians as we speak. I fail to see how the Israeli government is any better.

BTW, the Israeli government were at this sort of carry on before Hamas even existed, and they used the same tired excuses they use now.

notfromhere · 30-07-2014 04:01PM

Is that a Wolf Tone song u dare to call me a terrorist

Tuisceanch · 30-07-2014 04:02PM

Are we controlled by alien forces? YES or NO. I demand an answer as I'm sick of your prevarication on this subject.

RustyNut · 30-07-2014 04:02PM

bboybaboy19 wrote: »

I didn't say you did but your refusal to answer it speaks volumes.

So, do you consider the killing of the innocent afghans to be mass murder, yes or no?

If you start another thread instead of trying to derail this one you might get an answer.

Do you think targeting kids playing on a beech is murder ?

Nodin · 30-07-2014 04:03PM

notfromhere wrote: »

Is that a Wolf Tone song u dare to call me a terrorist

Yep.

Tuisceanch · 30-07-2014 04:05PM

Spring Onion wrote: »

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/An_Taoiseach_Enda_Kenny_Expel_the_Israeli_Ambassador_to_Ireland

There's people signing up to that at a phenomenal rate. Thanks for posting. Perhaps they could use his residence as a hostel for the homeless.

eeepaulo · 30-07-2014 04:12PM

KahBoom wrote: »

The word 'terrorist' means "anyone the US/western-powers labels a terrorist", and little more than that - there is no consistency to the term at all, it is pretty much meaningless.

If the label had any consistency, then US drone bombings of funerals, and Israeli war crimes against civilians, can equally be labelled terrorist acts.

I listened to a wonderful piece on bbc radio 4 yesterday about newspeak, orwells idea of controlling us by changing the language and using soundbites, I do think the 'civilized' western world's label terrorist falls into this category

Merriam webster definition of terrorist

the use of violent acts to frighten the people in an area as a way of trying to achieve a political goal

hatrickpatrick · 30-07-2014 04:14PM

Gringo180 wrote: »

I said unless your stupid

Gringo180 wrote: »

unless your stupid

Gringo180 wrote: »

your stupid

LorMal · 30-07-2014 04:16PM

Nodin wrote: »

?

"terrorist" is a label forked out on non-state actors by their opponents. It's a meaningless title that's been fired at everyone from the IRA to the ANC in order to demonise the opposition.

Ah come on, Nodin. The IRA and Hamas are not terrorists?

I Heart Internet · 30-07-2014 04:19PM

Nodin wrote: »

It's a pointless label that's been utterly devalued. They called Mandela a terrorist ffs. I'll call them a loathsome organisation, a nasty bunch and so on, but "terrorist" is meaningless.

No it's not.

It may be used incorrectly, but it means a person or group who employs terror as a tactic to get its way.

Is Hamas a terrorist organisation?

Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

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Israel - Palestine Conflict. Mod note in OP - updated 1st August