contract rearing heifers

ellewood · 22-07-2014 02:59PM

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

That's why I prefer getting them to the 12 month mark myself. Prefer to do the pushing from 0-12. Havn't had to go in with meals from the 12-20 month stage myself. If there was an issue with meals during the bulling season I'd be the one coughing up, but usually not an issue. They wouldn't be stock heavy where they're going.

What kind of stocking rate is he thinking of? if not stocked heavy

RightTurnClyde · 22-07-2014 03:23PM

They'll have up to a Lu/acre. He has plenty of ground, but has just been cutting off hay for the last few years. Even with mine there he'll still be able to do 30 or 40 acres of hay/silage.Doesn't have the capital to start stocking it. That's what I be hoping to get him to do, is to carry my heifers and if all goes well we could work out something where he carries a few extra heifers of his own with mine and at least hell have a few quid coming in every month from the contract rearing.

freedominacup · 22-07-2014 09:03PM

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

They'll have up to a Lu/acre. He has plenty of ground, but has just been cutting off hay for the last few years. Even with mine there he'll still be able to do 30 or 40 acres of hay/silage.Doesn't have the capital to start stocking it. That's what I be hoping to get him to do, is to carry my heifers and if all goes well we could work out something where he carries a few extra heifers of his own with mine and at least hell have a few quid coming in every month from the contract rearing.

He sounds like a guy you have good meas on. Any chance he'd come in as a junior partner in the dairy enterprise with you or is it something you would want?

RightTurnClyde · 22-07-2014 10:08PM

Ah ya, I've good mass on him. He has a good block of land but things are run down and wouldn't have the capital to do big investment himself. Even though he's young he's been running the farm himself for a good few years, but is a bit lost at the moment about where to go with the place. He's a good worker and does a share of milking for me. He's fine when he's told what to do but wouldn't be great with decisions himself.
Getting him to rear the heifers was something I was thinking about for a while, but he approached me himself. If the heifers go in there it would be a good place for him to look after them and I'd be able to keep an eye on them.
Once he gets a bit of confidence he could take on a few extra aa/he heifers or excess fr heifers and rear them for himself. It would be a way for him to get into stock without a big cash outlay.
With regards partnership. I'm not a fan of them ( that's just me), but as I said he does abit of milking for me and will probably do more for me next year. If he want more milkings next year on a regular basis, I'll continue on a flat rate pay for milkings but do something along the line of a bonus based on tbc/SCC.

ellewood · 23-07-2014 08:49AM

freedominacup wrote: »

He sounds like a guy you have good meas on. Any chance he'd come in as a junior partner in the dairy enterprise with you or is it something you would want?

How would this work?
What would the junior partner need to bring to the table to be attractive to main dairy man/woman.

freedominacup · 23-07-2014 09:37AM

ellewood wrote: »

How would this work?
What would the junior partner need to bring to the table to be attractive to main dairy man/woman.

Land and labour. I posted about a junior partner in this case because of the lack of experience and stock. But if you could add seventy cows to the system and the land and labour to run them there could be upsides for everyone in a case like rtc has laid out.

Every scenario is different. Converting drystock housing to cater for dairy youngstock and putting in a basic infrastructure to allow good grassland management for drystock is a lot cheaper than a full dairy conversion even before you start looking at parlours and housing for dairy stock.

ellewood · 24-07-2014 01:15AM

freedominacup wrote: »

Land and labour. I posted about a junior partner in this case because of the lack of experience and stock. But if you could add seventy cows to the system and the land and labour to run them there could be upsides for everyone in a case like rtc has laid out.

Every scenario is different. Converting drystock housing to cater for dairy youngstock and putting in a basic infrastructure to allow good grassland management for drystock is a lot cheaper than a full dairy conversion even before you start looking at parlours and housing for dairy stock.

But if ya havent the 70 cows to bring with ya, is the land + labour not the same as just contract rearing?

Sorry just looked again and seen the bit about lack of experiance

RightTurnClyde · 25-07-2014 08:36AM

Well, any ideas on a price/head/day for maidens from Feb to Nov. 1€??????

ellewood · 25-07-2014 10:14AM

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

Well, any ideas on a price/head/day for maidens from Feb to Nov. 1€??????

Ahh 0.80c/day should be grand sher a 500kg 21 month heifer wouldnt be eating that much in October/November anyways sher she would only be cleaning up the place before the winter for ya:D:D

Farmer Pudsey · 25-07-2014 11:19AM

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

Well, any ideas on a price/head/day for maidens from Feb to Nov. 1€??????

IMO you would be at nothing, the lads that do this generally only want to collect farm payment and are incapable of farming. We had a thread earlier in the year where we discussed it. IMO for it to be profitable and to do it right you would need 1.6/ day. This was costed off taking heifers calves at 8-10 weeks and carrying until Nov/Dec before calving down.

However generall dairy farmers want to pay only 80-1.1/day which is maybe a little less than cost. Why be a busy fool

ellewood · 25-07-2014 11:49AM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

IMO you would be at nothing, the lads that do this generally only want to collect farm payment and are incapable of farming. We had a thread earlier in the year where we discussed it. IMO for it to be profitable and to do it right you would need 1.6/ day. This was costed off taking heifers calves at 8-10 weeks and carrying until Nov/Dec before calving down.

However generall dairy farmers want to pay only 80-1.1/day which is maybe a little less than cost. Why be a busy fool

Couldn't agree more.

I am both rearing/summer grazing heifers for a lad this year and rearing calves for him, he got them reared last year for E1.00/day and it ended in a mess as lad rearing them didnt do it properly as he wasent getting paid enough ie. you get what you pay for. Now Im not doing it for anywhere near E1.00/day but Im not getting top dollar either as its first year doing it and were trying it out sort of speak.
Dairy lads still can be their own worst enemy tho maidens I got this year were in fantistic condition when arrived and still are as they get new grass daily and going by heats 100% are incalf, but by his own admission this years calves are way behind where they should be when they arrived here, but are after doing very well last few weeks, so what does dairy man want to do - cut 1kg/head meal madness imo and I told him when ya have them going - keep them going.

Sometimes lads can be penny wise and pound foolish

Btw @ E1.30/day from 1st May to 1st December 19 months later I think both rearer and dairy man both get something out of it anything less and I dont think its worth it unless you can do big numbers, whether dairy lads think this is too dear, well thats up to themselves to figure out.

Farmer Pudsey · 25-07-2014 11:54AM

ellewood wrote: »

Couldn't agree more.

I am both rearing/summer grazing heifers for a lad this year and rearing calves for him, he got them reared last year for E1.00/day and it ended in a mess as lad rearing them didnt do it properly as he wasent getting paid enough ie. you get what you pay for. Now Im not doing it for anywhere near E1.00/day but Im not getting top dollar either as its first year doing it and were trying it out sort of speak.
Dairy lads still can be their own worst enemy tho maidens I got this year were in fantistic condition when arrived and still are as they get new grass daily and going by heats 100% are incalf, but by his own admission this years calves are way behind where they should be when they arrived here, but are after doing very well last few weeks, so what does dairy man want to do - cut 1kg/head meal madness imo and I told him when ya have them going - keep them going.

Sometimes lads can be penny wise and pound foolish

Btw @ E1.30/day from 1st May to 1st December 19 months later I think both rearer and dairy man both get something out of it anything less and I dont think its worth it unless you can do big numbers, whether dairy lads think this is too dear, well thats up to themselves to figure out.

I presume that he is paying for kg of ration. That brings it to 1.6/day. TBH if grass is good there is little need for ration if I had to feed anything it would be a kg of soyahulls to slow down rumen. Even doing big numbers you will be limited ver few dairy farmers will want there heifers mix with joe soaps a county away that they do not know.

ellewood · 25-07-2014 12:07PM

Sorry pudsey, yea hes paying for ration for calves, but hes paying nowhere near 1.30 for the calves ( i wish) as im only keeping them untill his aftergrass is back in so they will only be here mid May to mid Aug, with the plan being going forward that they will stay May 15 all the way to Dec 16 and also these calves will be back to me early nest Feb as well.

I agree about the 1kg but some of these are march/april calves and are still light (point for going forward calves would want to be at least 100kgs when they arrive) and imo 1kg now to keep them going will be better than 2kg later on.

Them maybe its just me im used to my own march born Ch calves being 250kg+ now and being mud fat a hol/fr at 150kg is a different kettle of fish altogether.

Milked out · 25-07-2014 12:16PM

I think rtc is talking about the lad taking from 1 yr old for the grazing season. If it's 30 heifers at a euro a day for 300 days, round figures, that's 9 grand. Other option is rent 20 acres for 200 an acre, 4 grand plus the costs which the rear er is covering time fert and fencing, grassland mgt? Would the 5 grand cover that with some left over. The other aspect is that he knows and trusts the prospective rear er, hard to put a monetary value on that

RightTurnClyde · 25-07-2014 12:31PM

Milked out wrote: »

I think rtc is talking about the lad taking from 1 yr old for the grazing season. If it's 30 heifers at a euro a day for 300 days, round figures, that's 9 grand. Other option is rent 20 acres for 200 an acre, 4 grand plus the costs which the rear er is covering time fert and fencing, grassland mgt? Would the 5 grand cover that with some left over. The other aspect is that he knows and trusts the prospective rear er, hard to put a monetary value on that

That's is Milked. He'd be getting ~35 maidens in Feb. ( yr old) and hold them until November. They'd be back here then for the winter. No silage or meals involed. The heifers would be getting reared myself to 12 months.
I would have thought 1€ is fair for this setup

Farmer Pudsey · 25-07-2014 12:38PM

ellewood wrote: »

Sorry pudsey, yea hes paying for ration for calves, but hes paying nowhere near 1.30 for the calves ( i wish) as im only keeping them untill his aftergrass is back in so they will only be here mid May to mid Aug, with the plan being going forward that they will stay May 15 all the way to Dec 16 and also these calves will be back to me early nest Feb as well.

I agree about the 1kg but some of these are march/april calves and are still light (point for going forward calves would want to be at least 100kgs when they arrive) and imo 1kg now to keep them going will be better than 2kg later on.

Them maybe its just me im used to my own march born Ch calves being 250kg+ now and being mud fat a hol/fr at 150kg is a different kettle of fish altogether.

No calves would need ration it sounded like yearling getting ration.

Milked out wrote: »

I think rtc is talking about the lad taking from 1 yr old for the grazing season. If it's 30 heifers at a euro a day for 300 days, round figures, that's 9 grand. Other option is rent 20 acres for 200 an acre, 4 grand plus the costs which the rear er is covering time fert and fencing, grassland mgt? Would the 5 grand cover that with some left over. The other aspect is that he knows and trusts the prospective rear er, hard to put a monetary value on that

first off it is unlikly to be anywhere ner 300 days more likly 260-280. Yes 30 heifers will only need 20 acres from may-august but to have out from early March and again from September will need more groung and or extra feeding. Feeding managment etc is a cost as well. Everything look dandy when you calculate off peak months, but it is not a matter of putting 30 heifers on 20 acres and walking away. To carry on that need fairy good grassland managment. Maybe it would be cheaper for the dairy farmers to rent 30-35 acres put them on it and visit every few days.

Farmer Pudsey · 25-07-2014 12:40PM

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

That's is Milked. He'd be getting ~35 maidens in Feb. ( yr old) and hold them until November. They'd be back here then for the winter. No silage or meals involed. The heifers would be getting reared myself to 12 months.
I would have thought 1€ is fair for this setup

Fair for who??

RightTurnClyde · 25-07-2014 12:41PM

ellewood wrote: »

Sorry pudsey, yea hes paying for ration for calves, but hes paying nowhere near 1.30 for the calves ( i wish) as im only keeping them untill his aftergrass is back in so they will only be here mid May to mid Aug, with the plan being going forward that they will stay May 15 all the way to Dec 16 and also these calves will be back to me early nest Feb as well.

I agree about the 1kg but some of these are march/april calves and are still light (point for going forward calves would want to be at least 100kgs when they arrive) and imo 1kg now to keep them going will be better than 2kg later on.

Them maybe its just me im used to my own march born Ch calves being 250kg+ now and being mud fat a hol/fr at 150kg is a different kettle of fish altogether.

So ellewood, just that I have it straight, you're getting 1.30€/ head for summer grazing them.
I have no intention of trying to be "smart" with this guy. Just trying to find out what the going rate is. Anyone I have asked that are looking at/doing contract rearing are doing the whole hog ( calf rearing, summer grazing / wintering / and grazing), so hard to get a figure on just the second year grazing.

RightTurnClyde · 25-07-2014 12:43PM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Fair for who??

Pudsey, there's no point jumpin up and down. I just asked a simple question. What's the fair price for grazing heifers, that's all.

ellewood · 25-07-2014 12:56PM

No sorry etc
I said if I got 1.3/day from weaned calf to just before second winter id be happy and that's in line with Teagasc figures to cover feed land charge and labour charge

Excluding labour and land charge what does it cost for feed, fert, vet/air/bull, doing, first winter, machinery/diesel etc for the 19 months Ie what it would cost the farmer anyways and I think you will arrive at about .60/a day for the 19 months fairly quickly
Just add a land and labour charge simples a

RightTurnClyde · 25-07-2014 01:04PM

ellewood wrote: »

No sorry etc
I said if I got 1.3/day from weaned calf to just before second winter id be happy and that's in line with Teagasc figures to cover feed land charge and labour charge

Excluding labour and land charge what does it cost for feed, fert, vet/air/bull, doing, first winter, machinery/diesel etc for the 19 months Ie what it would cost the farmer anyways and I think you will arrive at about .60/a day for the 19 months fairly quickly
Just add a land and labour charge simples a

Thanks Elle, of the list above I'd be covering feed/vet/aI bull. I'd be hoping that the only thing he has to put his hand into his pocket for is fert ( shouldn't be too high... Low SR). If he needs spreader or topper, he wouldn't be stuck here.
Labour wise, just herding and heat detection for aI. ( and keeping grass going). Vaccinations and dosing I'd be providing and doing with him.

Farmer Pudsey · 25-07-2014 01:39PM

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

Pudsey, there's no point jumpin up and down. I just asked a simple question. What's the fair price for grazing heifers, that's all.

Sorry if you took it that way. There is a perception by some dairy farmers that lads should rear there heifers for what it would cost them. Big difference between heifers arriving in mid April and Mid February. For these two months you are replacingindoor feeding with heifers maybe gaining 0.5Kgs/day and costing maybe 1.2/day with heifers gaining 1kg/day. In that 60 days heifers will gain an extra 30kgs outdoors if they have adequate grass.It is the same from September to November on a well managed farm they will gain an extra 30kgs.

I was annoyed with milked out simplistic calculation. 20 acres for 30 heifers. Longterm if dairy farmers want heifers contract reared they will want to be calculating on paying north of 1.5/kg. On a well managed farm this will be value if he meets targets, at 1/day on a badly manage set it will be expensive

ellewood · 25-07-2014 01:45PM

I think 1 is too low
1.2 would be my min
After all u sign a contract from say Feb to Dec
If u run out of grass for a lock of 500 kg heirs in Oct /Nov its going to cost a lot more to feed than 1/day you're contracted to keep them for another 5-6 weeks ya can't give them back until contract date is up, you can't load them up and bring half of them to mart to reduce demand as they don't belong to
you
As with any contract risk has ti have a monetery value built in as well.

RightTurnClyde · 25-07-2014 02:09PM

Thanks for that, Elle and pudsey. So we're looking at 1.20 to 1.35. Good news for him, scratch head time for me. We're both new to this, and to be honest if you had asked me 2 weeks ago, I'd have said no interest. But he approached me, and it has got me thinking.

ellewood · 25-07-2014 02:19PM

I wonder if we were still using the punt would ye be offering £1.00/ day seeing as ye :-):-)love nice round numbers:-):-)

funny man · 25-07-2014 03:54PM

http://www.teagasc.ie/publications/2014/3155/George_Ramsbottom.pdf

This might give you some guidance.

€1/day is a fair figure, no one receives a land charge unless you rent it out.

Milked out · 25-07-2014 04:32PM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

No calves would need ration it sounded like yearling getting ration.

first off it is unlikly to be anywhere ner 300 days more likly 260-280. Yes 30 heifers will only need 20 acres from may-august but to have out from early March and again from September will need more groung and or extra feeding. Feeding managment etc is a cost as well. Everything look dandy when you calculate off peak months, but it is not a matter of putting 30 heifers on 20 acres and walking away. To carry on that need fairy good grassland managment. Maybe it would be cheaper for the dairy farmers to rent 30-35 acres put them on it and visit every few days.

I only said 20 acres as we have 30 heifers on 19 acres of heavy ground, broken down as 15 in calf for aut and 15 maidens. They get there early March most years with the aut in calf coming back the end of September and the maidens the end of Oct early Nov weather dependant. If it was good ground with young grass preferably with roadway access and a yard 30 maidens could be held on 20 acres I reckon. Of course management would have to be good from Feb to Nov. Again figures I used were rounded off fir a rough calc, perhaps 25 would be a safer acreage to work off. Aside from 3 weeks breeding there is little labour involved with heifers compared to calves imo. Never mentioned open the gap and let em off all I was trying to illustrate is the comparison between getting someone to rear maidens for 9 or 10 months and renting ground to do it yourself

Farmer Pudsey · 25-07-2014 05:40PM

funny man wrote: »

http://www.teagasc.ie/publications/2014/3155/George_Ramsbottom.pdf

This might give you some guidance.

€1/day is a fair figure, no one receives a land charge unless you rent it out.

No you are not entitled to a land charge but you are entitled to make a profit. These figure are more or less the cost of rearing and no margin added as profit for rearer. He is supposed to do this for free.

funny man · 25-07-2014 10:06PM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

No you are not entitled to a land charge but you are entitled to make a profit. These figure are more or less the cost of rearing and no margin added as profit for rearer. He is supposed to do this for free.

everyone is entitled to a profit but not everyone makes profit. only a small number of beef farmers make profit without touching their single farm payment. read through the guidelines at €1/head/day stocked at 3l.u./ha as a low cost producer can expect to earn €687/ ha that is a good return that can't be matched by any beef enterprise.

ellewood · 25-07-2014 11:39PM

funny man wrote: »

everyone is entitled to a profit but not everyone makes profit. only a small number of beef farmers make profit without touching their single farm payment. read through the guidelines at €1/head/day stocked at 3l.u./ha as a low cost producer can expect to earn €687/ ha that is a good return that can't be matched by any beef enterprise.

Is that in the teagasc/moorepark guide for contract rearing heifers cause if it is is for a "low cost producer" what ever that is?

Teagasc's own figures are - Stocked at 3/Ha and getting E1.00/day are,

Margin for land and labour

Average cost producer E288/ha

Low cost producer E687/ha

High cost producer E-120/ha (yes thats a minus)

So take it that were average you get less than E120.00 per acre for youre land and youre labour I agree 100% theres not much work with them but Id rather get paid properly for the small amount of labour thats with them.

Im not saying anybodys wrong to do it for E1.00/day Im just saying that I cant see the point in using a resource ya have and youre own labour just to get paid less than yo would by using that same resource and no labour ie renting it.

contract rearing heifers

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