contract rearing heifers

Farmer Pudsey

Timmaay wrote: »

In that case why not aim to build a late summer wedge of grass, and then skin the place bare during the autumn when the high demand is there, you don't need to hold any covers over winter as you have a low spring demand (unlike us dairymen who have a huge demand in feb).

Earliest you can start wedge building is August however your demad is growing all the time. Stocking rate will be exceptionally high. It really shows on the LW you will be carrying. To put in context with the teagasc figures of 3 units a (maiden and a heifer calf) on a 50 acre farm you will be carrying 60 maidens and 60 weanling heifers on 50 acres. That is 120 cattle. Supplementing weanling is not an issue maidens will not be possible.

You are all good at grass measureing or so you tell us beef farmers. the demand of a 250kg weanling will be 5kgs of dry matter/day a 500kg incalf heifer 10kgs. Total demand/day will be 900kgs Dm. Grass utilisation will not be as good as dairy cattle as these cattle will not have access to a shed with cubicles during the day and no buffer feeding except 1kg(to make it easy 1kgDM which is about 1.2kg ration) to weanling

ellewood

mahoney_j wrote: »

That's a sr of 3.3 very achievable for a seriously committed well tuned in dairy farmer .as for been not too hard to run heifers in every few days,he'll of a lot more to it than that.as it is it costing me close to 1500 to get a heifer in parlour.my big issue with contract rearing is finding someone who will put as much attention to detail and time into itsca so would more to rearing heifers than grass and throwing a look at them once pec twice a day.when I find one I'll blacken my place with cows(could comfortably manage sr of 4 this year ),aiming for 3.7 and buffer feed when needed

Fair play mahoney, thats the point I was trying to make - just couldnt put like u- Im rearing heifers and calves for a lad that got them reared for what he taught was good money last year but it ended bad, as the rearer made no money and his heifers were a mess, he actually said that if someone said they would rear them for the same money he wouldnt give them to him as he now knows that not paying enough just end's up with him with a batch of heifers that never live up to the potential of heifers reared properly, for the sake of a few cents a day per head.
He just said what he taught he was going to save by subbing out the rearing has ended up costing him tenfold because went so bay and by his own admission the main problem was that he wasnt paying enough so the rearer scrimped and cut corners just so he could make a few bob out of it.

Thats the nub of it right there, done right it works perfect for both parties, but done bad its just a complete mess.

funny man

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Earliest you can start wedge building is August however your demad is growing all the time. Stocking rate will be exceptionally high. It really shows on the LW you will be carrying. To put in context with the teagasc figures of 3 units a (maiden and a heifer calf) on a 50 acre farm you will be carrying 60 maidens and 60 weanling heifers on 50 acres. That is 120 cattle. Supplementing weanling is not an issue maidens will not be possible.

You are all good at grass measureing or so you tell us beef farmers. the demand of a 250kg weanling will be 5kgs of dry matter/day a 500kg incalf heifer 10kgs. Total demand/day will be 900kgs Dm. Grass utilisation will not be as good as dairy cattle as these cattle will not have access to a shed with cubicles during the day and no buffer feeding except 1kg(to make it easy 1kgDM which is about 1.2kg ration) to weanling

Demand per HA (900/20ha) = 45kgs/ha . on good farms growth rates would typically dip below 45 in October, so there is no excuse not to have grass built up before then, on wet farms it is not uncommon to have an arrangement to move all or some of the in-calf heifers on the 1st Nov

Timmaay

Ok I'm not sure on the figures you have presented, but do the animals need access to a shed, other than in say mid November? I usually pull the plug on grazing here due to the afc getting too low against conditions being too wet. My dad will happily let heifers graze away till mid Dec (being fed then obviously), they will make **** of the corner with the round feeder in but that's generally it.

Anyways here I'm certainly not saying 3.3lu/ha is for everyone, if you are a part time farmer now on average land and are not hugely on top of soil fertility, grass management etc then for the love of God don't expect to be able to throw your 4 maidens and calves to the HA and be ok, I'm just highlight that autumn grazing isn't always hugely limited by ground conditions.

moy83

Timmaay wrote: »

Ok I'm not sure on the figures you have presented, but do the animals need access to a shed, other than in say mid November? I usually pull the plug on grazing here due to the afc getting too low against conditions being too wet. My dad will happily let heifers graze away till mid Dec (being fed then obviously), they will make **** of the corner with the round feeder in but that's generally it.

Anyways here I'm certainly not saying 3.3lu/ha is for everyone, if you are a part time farmer now on average land and are not hugely on top of soil fertility, grass management etc then for the love of God don't expect to be able to throw your 4 maidens and calves to the HA and be ok, I'm just highlight that autumn grazing isn't always hugely limited by ground conditions.

Good point about soil fertility and grass quality Timmay . If there are target weights to be met I'd say a few could end up feeding more nuts than they think .

funny man

ellewood wrote: »

Fair play mahoney, thats the point I was trying to make - just couldnt put like u- Im rearing heifers and calves for a lad that got them reared for what he taught was good money last year but it ended bad, as the rearer made no money and his heifers were a mess, he actually said that if someone said they would rear them for the same money he wouldnt give them to him as he now knows that not paying enough just end's up with him with a batch of heifers that never live up to the potential of heifers reared properly, for the sake of a few cents a day per head.
He just said what he taught he was going to save by subbing out the rearing has ended up costing him tenfold because went so bay and by his own admission the main problem was that he wasnt paying enough so the rearer scrimped and cut corners just so he could make a few bob out of it.

Thats the nub of it right there, done right it works perfect for both parties, but done bad its just a complete mess .

No matter what the price paid.

Look the best contract rearing arrangement I know is running over ten years and heifers are consistently turned out top class. the guy has two farms and kept the heifers on the home farm and runs calf to beef on the other farm. he is getting €1.05/day from 1st may to 15th Nov and his 30Ha is returning him €23,220/year. he is looking for another farmer to contract rear on the other block because the beef is not returning anything near that. he won't rent it out either because he knows it will be run down after a few years.

my point is if the man or the land isn't right for the job then the job isn't right for him.

frazzledhome

moy83 wrote: »

Good point about soil fertility and grass quality Timmay . If there are target weights to be met I'd say a few could end up feeding more nuts than they think .

This is where weighing comes in, target the nuts

ellewood

Timmaay wrote: »

Ok I'm not sure on the figures you have presented, but do the animals need access to a shed, other than in say mid November? I usually pull the plug on grazing here due to the afc getting too low against conditions being too wet. My dad will happily let heifers graze away till mid Dec (being fed then obviously), they will make **** of the corner with the round feeder in but that's generally it.

Anyways here I'm certainly not saying 3.3lu/ha is for everyone, if you are a part time farmer now on average land and are not hugely on top of soil fertility, grass management etc then for the love of God don't expect to be able to throw your 4 maidens and calves to the HA and be ok, I'm just highlight that autumn grazing isn't always hugely limited by ground conditions.

+1 even in a wet year (heres hoping twould fecking rain now) cattle can stay out late here and be fed without much if any damage.

And I dont think anyone is going to change overnight into a fantastic grassland manager and go from 1.5Lu/hec to 4/hec

Just on that in sept heifers will be 450kgs so
450*4*2%=36kg/day
Calves will be 175kgs so
175*4*2%=14kgs/day less the 1kg/head ration is 10kgs/day

Total 46kgs/day

Total for Oct would be 48kgs/day

The problem is going to be November!!

frazzledhome

ellewood wrote: »

+1 even in a wet year (heres hoping twould fecking rain now) cattle can stay out late here and be fed without much if any damage.

And I dont think anyone is going to change overnight into a fantastic grassland manager and go from 1.5Lu/hec to 4/hec

Just on that in sept heifers will be 450kgs so
450*4*2%=36kg/day
Calves will be 175kgs so
175*4*2%=14kgs/day less the 1kg/head ration is 10kgs/day

Total 46kgs/day

Total for Oct would be 48kgs/day

The problem is going to be November!!

Simple, house the bigger ones, the in calfs will be leaving in Dec anyway

funny man

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The last thing I would like is one of you dairy farmers to cost the production of a heifer from May 1st at about 10 weeks to Dec 1st and 21 months. Cost your grass your silage meal dosing herd test etc. I costed it in post no 3 on this thread and in Post No 15 freedominacup reckoned contract rearers woulde be at nothing at this margin level

The heifer calves arrive at the start of May and head back to the dairy farmer on December 1 of the following year.
Pat Moylan, of Teagasc, was called in to draw up a contract that would satisfy both owner and rearer and this was available to all at the farm walk.
Basically, Pat costed grass at 7c/kg dry matter (DM), silage at 15c/kg and meals this year at 32c/kg, and calculated the inputs for the 19 months of contract rearing. This amounted to about €326 per head in feed.
Added to this, per head, was €150 for labour, €50 for the car, ESB, phone and water, €45 for depreciation and €50 for insurance and machinery. A few other sundry items totalled the payments at €645 per animal put through the system. This amounts to about €1.11 per head per day.
Teagasc's George Ramsbottom told the open day visitors that good grassland management was the key to leaving profit for the rearer. Billy Phelan operated a leader-follower system with the calves in front.

This is an excerpt from the farming independent with real costings. the cost of the grass and the silage carries a land charge and the labour is there also.

ellewood

frazzledhome wrote: »

Simple, house the bigger ones, the in calfs will be leaving in Dec anyway

Yea I agree, but youre feed cost alone jump from 0.70c/day to E1.50/day when ya put them in on silage.

Thats where funnyman's example above is better cause ya only have them till the 15 Nov not till 01 Dec and the lower per day is ok because ya only have them for half of the really dear month.

Theres so many different ways of doing it its impossible to figure it out beforehand, thats why ive tried it this year we will both sit down at the end of the year and assess how we have got on and go from there for next year.

She'r the fella on tinternet said it cant be as bad the ould beef crack:D

Farmer Pudsey

funny man wrote: »

The heifer calves arrive at the start of May and head back to the dairy farmer on December 1 of the following year.
Pat Moylan, of Teagasc, was called in to draw up a contract that would satisfy both owner and rearer and this was available to all at the farm walk.
Basically, Pat costed grass at 7c/kg dry matter (DM), silage at 15c/kg and meals this year at 32c/kg, and calculated the inputs for the 19 months of contract rearing. This amounted to about €326 per head in feed.
Added to this, per head, was €150 for labour, €50 for the car, ESB, phone and water, €45 for depreciation and €50 for insurance and machinery. A few other sundry items totalled the payments at €645 per animal put through the system. This amounts to about €1.11 per head per day.
Teagasc's George Ramsbottom told the open day visitors that good grassland management was the key to leaving profit for the rearer. Billy Phelan operated a leader-follower system with the calves in front.

This is an excerpt from the farming independent with real costings. the cost of the grass and the silage carries a land charge and the labour is there also.

I did not ask you for teagasc costs I asked you to cost your own. TBH I get the impression that there are a few lads here that have never costed what it costs to rear a heifer. generally they are lumped on to a bit of rented land at a lowish stocking rate and ot works from there. They now want to incoporate this land into providing silage for to increase there milk o/p. So they need to move heifers further away but have absolutely no idea of the costs. There may have been a few cull cows as weel thrown onto the rented land.

In genneral this is the practice that I see taking place aroud me. A few have the lad that is local and not interested in farming only carrying a few stock to draw the SFP. It generall works on the basis the farm is lowly stocked and the dairy farmer takes a cut of silage off some of the farm in May.

From you figure above funny man you highlight labour costs of 150/heifer however after costs teagsc ahve only added a margin of 30/head for 18 months to keep an animal.

If these costs are so right all the lads rearing fresian bullocksto 500kgs at 22 months and selling in the mart for 700-800 are absoluting cleaning up after paying 50-70 for the calf.

Wake up and smell the coffee.

mahoney_j

My 2 cent worth,cobtract rearing is a great idea and a way for dairy farmer to max out sr with milkers and for beef guy or whoever to stock his place and make a few quid.the dairy farmer wins cause he can milk to max potential but the rearer also has to make money.a good rearer has to be rewarded and if clear goals and targets are set up and met ow will be a nice money spinner for both.you can pay a guy bottom dollAr cause it suits u and expect top results .rearing a heifer costs a hell of a lot of money to get her in parlour at 2 years old,1500 to be precise.a weighing scales for rearer is a must though.the cost of it can vary from different areas due to land type etc.

ellewood

mahoney_j wrote: »

My 2 cent worth,cobtract rearing is a great idea and a way for dairy farmer to max out sr with milkers and for beef guy or whoever to stock his place and make a few quid.the dairy farmer wins cause he can milk to max potential but the rearer also has to make money.a good rearer has to be rewarded and if clear goals and targets are set up and met ow will be a nice money spinner for both.you can pay a guy bottom dollAr cause it suits u and expect top results .rearing a heifer costs a hell of a lot of money to get her in parlour at 2 years old,1500 to be precise.a weighing scales for rearer is a must though.the cost of it can vary from different areas due to land type etc.

Are those weight bands any good??

Any chance any one know where a lad would pick one up?

Timmaay

http://www.magentadirect.ie/MEASURING-WEIGHT-TAPE-RONDO?search=Tape

frazzledhome

ellewood wrote: »

Are those weight bands any good??

Any chance any one know where a lad would pick one up?

Icbf have a weighing service

Charliebull

how often would they require to be weighed,

funny man

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I did not ask you for teagasc costs I asked you to cost your own. TBH I get the impression that there are a few lads here that have never costed what it costs to rear a heifer. generally they are lumped on to a bit of rented land at a lowish stocking rate and ot works from there. They now want to incoporate this land into providing silage for to increase there milk o/p. So they need to move heifers further away but have absolutely no idea of the costs. There may have been a few cull cows as weel thrown onto the rented land.

In genneral this is the practice that I see taking place aroud me. A few have the lad that is local and not interested in farming only carrying a few stock to draw the SFP. It generall works on the basis the farm is lowly stocked and the dairy farmer takes a cut of silage off some of the farm in May.

From you figure above funny man you highlight labour costs of 150/heifer however after costs teagsc ahve only added a margin of 30/head for 18 months to keep an animal.

If these costs are so right all the lads rearing fresian bullocksto 500kgs at 22 months and selling in the mart for 700-800 are absoluting cleaning up after paying 50-70 for the calf.

Wake up and smell the coffee.

My own cost are pretty much inline with the teagasc one, I am low cost because I own my land, it's all in great shape and I try not to over mechanise the stock enterprise.

If you study the table on page 5 that shows the cost of rearing a calf to 24months it shows a large variation in the cost from 540 for low cost, 703 for the average guy and 870 for a high cost guy, this ties in with what you came up with on another post I think you said €700 cost plus €300 margin. so if your only getting 700-800 for Friesian bullocks less 100 for the calf then it's not a much difference other then you are guaranteed your margin and the other things I mentioned.

as I said earlier rate/day will vary depending on stocking rates and the cost that the rearer will have to incur.

frazzledhome

A lot of enquiries from drystock guys on this area. Admittedly a few you wouldnt leave you dog with for the weekend but some teally good operators considering it as an option. Is the idea getting traction.

freedominacup

frazzledhome wrote: »

A lot of enquiries from drystock guys on this area. Admittedly a few you wouldnt leave you dog with for the weekend but some teally good operators considering it as an option. Is the idea getting traction.

I got semi sounded out recently as well. Very good suckler farmer. I was beginning to think that some form of equity partnership would be required to get drystock farmers interested mainly because of the level of ill feeling that had been generated by the attitude and actions of some dairy farmers.

Not sure it's not a runner yet though. Suckler farmer sells out his herd buys dairy fills your grazing platform. He's responsible for heifer rearing and silage and chips in during calving. Plenty of other details to be worked out but.........

Greengrass1

Id be very interested in heifer rearing at some stage. Ye couldn't have time in spring to br after heifers if your busy calving
When you say equity partnership, wjats involved? What or how much equity?

ellewood

frazzledhome wrote: »

A lot of enquiries from drystock guys on this area. Admittedly a few you wouldnt leave you dog with for the weekend but some teally good operators considering it as an option. Is the idea getting traction.

2 things on this...

1 - When beef is back up to E4.00/kg again next year will dry stock lads be as interested?

2 - When milk price drops will dairy lads be as interested?

mahoney_j

ellewood wrote: »

2 things on this...

1 - When beef is back up to E4.00/kg again next year will dry stock lads be as interested?

2 - When milk price drops will dairy lads be as interested?

Beef at 4 euro/kg is the same as milk at 23 cent a kg.dose that answer your question ???

ellewood

mahoney_j wrote: »

Beef at 4 euro/kg is the same as milk at 23 cent a kg.dose that answer your question ???

I know, but the point I was trying to make was if beef goes to 4/kg again beef lads will happilly plod along without change I think the prolonged bad price now is whats making lads sit up and think of altenatives.

Also if milk price drops will lads sell calves/heifers instead of incurring rearing costs and just milk what numbers they have already without expanding?

Just thinking out loud (prob never a good idea:D)

Charliebull

No both are valid points which have to be considered carefully by both parties,

Dawggone

ellewood wrote: »

Also if milk price drops will lads sell calves/heifers instead of incurring rearing costs and just milk what numbers they have already without expanding?



Good point.

frazzledhome

ellewood wrote: »

I know, but the point I was trying to make was if beef goes to 4/kg again beef lads will happilly plod along without change I think the prolonged bad price now is whats making lads sit up and think of altenatives.

Also if milk price drops will lads sell calves/heifers instead of incurring rearing costs and just milk what numbers they have already without expanding?

Just thinking out loud (prob never a good idea:D)

Who'll they sell heifers to?
Will they not need % for replacements?
I have never considered selling stock as a method of shoring price

Don't think part 2 holds water

Dawggone

frazzledhome wrote: »

Who'll they sell heifers to?
Will they not need % for replacements?
I have never considered selling stock as a method of shoring price

Don't think part 2 holds water

Why not? I think that it's a very good point.
If there is a prolonged low milk price farmers will put expansion on hold. Why get bigger to lose more money?
This whole contract rearing thing is built on expansion. If dairy doesn't get bigger there is no need for the service.
As for the replacement argument - I wouldn't agree.

Take a large xbred herd what would the replacement percentage be - 10%?
10% of 500 cow herd isn't going to make any beef farmer.
Or a 1000 cows either.


stirring.....

ellewood

frazzledhome wrote: »

Who'll they sell heifers to? export??
Will they not need % for replacements? yes but small nos campared to expansion
I have never considered selling stock as a method of shoring price

Don't think part 2 holds water me thinking out loud!! - yea ill never learn:D

Deepsouthwest

Contact rearing came up at my last discussion group meeting. Two lads were arguing 80/90cents/day was def enough to pay. They were giving out about Teagasc for coming up with this €1.20/1.30/day figure. I was trying to argue did they really think beef lads would be interested in doing this for as little 80cents, it has to be made attractive to them or it will never take off. I was nearly 'ran' from the meeting! They said isn't it more than they're making at the moment