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contract rearing heifers

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  • #32
    sheebadog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,246 ✭✭✭sheebadog


    frazzledhome wrote: »
    Sorry not clear.

    I cost them at €1500 (as close as I can get it). This is for all calves born, calved and back in calf.

    So, I am accounting for lost calves and heifers that don't make it to second lactation.

    Are you including labour and land charges?


  • #33
    frazzledhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,278 ✭✭✭frazzledhome


    sheebadog wrote: »
    Are you including labour and land charges?

    Yes


  • #34
    sheebadog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,246 ✭✭✭sheebadog


    frazzledhome wrote: »
    Yes

    You're rearing them a lot cheaper than me!


  • #35
    frazzledhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,278 ✭✭✭frazzledhome


    sheebadog wrote: »
    You're rearing them a lot cheaper than me!

    As I said its a close as I can get


  • #36
    sheebadog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,246 ✭✭✭sheebadog


    frazzledhome wrote: »
    As I said its a close as I can get

    I'm also including €75 for sexed semen.
    But my costings finish once calved.


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  • #37
    Farmer Pudsey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,326 ✭✭✭Farmer Pudsey


    frazzledhome wrote: »
    Sorry not clear.

    I cost them at €1500 (as close as I can get it). This is for all calves born, calved and back in calf.

    So, I am accounting for lost calves and heifers that don't make it to second lactation.
    sheebadog wrote: »
    Are you including labour and land charges?

    What value are you putting the calf in first day at. Also a rearer will have to have a margin. I costed it that at 1.6/day from 10 weeks to 1st December before calving allowing for a 300/head margin for rearer.


  • #38
    rangler1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,497 ✭✭✭rangler1


    Farmer Pudsey wrote: »
    What value are you putting the calf in first day at. Also a rearer will have to have a margin. I costed it that at 1.6/day from 10 weeks to 1st December before calving allowing for a 300/head margin for rearer.

    Going on those dates, you only have them one winter which would be a help.
    Is that €300/hd net profit or is fixed costs to come out of that


  • #39
    Farmer Pudsey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,326 ✭✭✭Farmer Pudsey


    rangler1 wrote: »
    Going on those dates, you only have them one winter which would be a help.
    Is that €300/hd net profit or is fixed costs to come out of that

    Read post no 3 &16 on this thread, very hard to define fixed costs and margin. As a PAYE worker and a sole trade you have to be able to see through the mist. What is a fixed cost, what is profit if you are pay 52% on it, if you are driving a jeep is it a fixed cost or a lifestyle choice or maybe it is BIK(I would only have one if it was BIK).


  • #40
    frazzledhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,278 ✭✭✭frazzledhome


    rangler1 wrote: »
    Going on those dates, you only have them one winter which would be a help.
    Is that €300/hd net profit or is fixed costs to come out of that

    100 heifers*€300 + SFP = a lot of margin for very little work. With fixed costs paid, should all beef farmers not be running to this?

    From what I'm reading its not being got rom beef or is it?


  • #41
    sheebadog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,246 ✭✭✭sheebadog


    frazzledhome wrote: »
    100 heifers*€300 + SFP = a lot of margin for very little work. With fixed costs paid, should all beef farmers not be running to this?

    From what I'm reading its not being got rom beef or is it?

    Dairymen paying SFP now!! Ye must be making too much money!!


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  • #42
    frazzledhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,278 ✭✭✭frazzledhome


    sheebadog wrote: »
    Dairymen paying SFP now!! Ye must be making too much money!!

    Now Sheeba, you know ours is too small to be giving away but the rearer would be collecting their own.

    Go on and milk and don't be starting a row! "The farmer and the cow man should be friends"


  • #43
    sheebadog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,246 ✭✭✭sheebadog


    frazzledhome wrote: »
    Now Sheeba, you know ours is too small to be giving away but the rearer would be collecting their own.

    Go on and milk and don't be starting a row! "The farmer and the cow man should be friends"

    LOL!!!:)
    I have new milkers this morning and just keeping a eye on them.


  • #44
    ellewood
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 950 ✭✭✭ellewood


    frazzledhome wrote: »
    100 heifers*€300 + SFP = a lot of margin for very little work. With fixed costs paid, should all beef farmers not be running to this?

    From what I'm reading its not being got rom beef or is it?


    And if you have no SFP? Thats like the beef factories saying sher why do ye need a profit on a beef animal give them to us at cost and youre left with youre SFP

    Btw I agree E300 net would be fantastic money to rear a heifer and prob a bit too much for everyone to be happy!:rolleyes:

    So what in youre opinion should the rearer be left with after all costs and a land charge ie what would he want to be getting for his labour?

    If you were doing it for someone what would you want to be getting for it ??


  • #45
    Farmer Pudsey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,326 ✭✭✭Farmer Pudsey


    frazzledhome wrote: »
    100 heifers*€300 + SFP = a lot of margin for very little work. With fixed costs paid, should all beef farmers not be running to this?

    From what I'm reading its not being got rom beef or is it?
    ellewood wrote: »
    And if you have no SFP? Thats like the beef factories saying sher why do ye need a profit on a beef animal give them to us at cost and youre left with youre SFP

    Btw I agree E300 net would be fantastic money to rear a heifer and prob a bit too much for everyone to be happy!:rolleyes:

    So what in youre opinion should the rearer be left with after all costs and a land charge ie what would he want to be getting for his labour?

    If you were doing it for someone what would you want to be getting for it ??

    I am not sure if it would be fantastic money, however in the medium term it is about the minimum that will get goodish stockmen to take up the rearing of heifers. Yes there are some that may take them in at 1/head/day but in general these are only lads unwilling and unable to manage there own farms. These only want a way of collecting SFP, DA and envoirmental scheme.

    Any farmers that has survived at the drystock game for any amount of time will want a fair return fopr his money. 300/head for 18-20 months managment is about 180-200/head/year. A lot of good drystock farmers are managing that through there present system. You have to also consider that this will be totally different to just taking heifers for summer rearing.


  • #46
    frazzledhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,278 ✭✭✭frazzledhome


    Rearing is about grass management nothing else. People make it out to be a black art.

    Early turn out with 10mts grass, good parasite control.
    Above all seperate smaller heifers early for extra hi pro grub
    Synch for breeding using a heat detection aid, that's it.

    Stick at 4 maidens per ha and take surplus as silage


  • #47
    Farmer Pudsey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,326 ✭✭✭Farmer Pudsey


    frazzledhome wrote: »
    Rearing is about grass management nothing else. People make it out to be a black art.

    Early turn out with 10mts grass, good parasite control.
    Above all seperate smaller heifers early for extra hi pro grub
    Synch for breeding using a heat detection aid, that's it.

    Stick at 4 maidens per ha and take surplus as silage

    Milking cows, summer grazing, spring lamb are all only grass managment as well. They are not Black arts either. It always amazes me that there is a certain fraternity in the dairying area that consider that other sectors should subsidise there profitable sector. They seem to have an innate ability to find suckers to believe there spin.

    Contract rearing is not rocket science but will require certain management skills. The option is there to do it in house either by reducing cow numbers on milking platform or renting land and rearing them with own labour

    However if this is to be a new industry within the farming sector then those that partake will require a margin. If these Dairy farmers thing that some drystock farmers will take this up and carry out the enterprise without an adequate margin go and find these inviduals. There will be some idiots out there.

    I see few have argued with my costs but there seems to be a section that have an issue with a margin being added for the farmer rearing the heifers. What level of margin would these consider adequate. Some will expect maybe that these rearers will give a subsidy of part of there SFP to these profitable dairy operations


  • #48
    sheebadog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,246 ✭✭✭sheebadog


    Farmer Pudsey wrote: »
    Milking cows, summer grazing, spring lamb are all only grass managment as well. They are not Black arts either. It always amazes me that there is a certain fraternity in the dairying area that consider that other sectors should subsidise there profitable sector. They seem to have an innate ability to find suckers to believe there spin.

    Contract rearing is not rocket science but will require certain management skills. The option is there to do it in house either by reducing cow numbers on milking platform or renting land and rearing them with own labour

    However if this is to be a new industry within the farming sector then those that partake will require a margin. If these Dairy farmers thing that some drystock farmers will take this up and carry out the enterprise without an adequate margin go and find these inviduals. There will be some idiots out there.

    I see few have argued with my costs but there seems to be a section that have an issue with a margin being added for the farmer rearing the heifers. What level of margin would these consider adequate. Some will expect maybe that these rearers will give a subsidy of part of there SFP to these profitable dairy operations

    Massive +1.


  • #49
    frazzledhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,278 ✭✭✭frazzledhome


    Farmer Pudsey wrote: »
    Milking cows, summer grazing, spring lamb are all only grass managment as well. They are not Black arts either. It always amazes me that there is a certain fraternity in the dairying area that consider that other sectors should subsidise there profitable sector. They seem to have an innate ability to find suckers to believe there spin.

    Contract rearing is not rocket science but will require certain management skills. The option is there to do it in house either by reducing cow numbers on milking platform or renting land and rearing them with own labour

    However if this is to be a new industry within the farming sector then those that partake will require a margin. If these Dairy farmers thing that some drystock farmers will take this up and carry out the enterprise without an adequate margin go and find these inviduals. There will be some idiots out there.

    I see few have argued with my costs but there seems to be a section that have an issue with a margin being added for the farmer rearing the heifers. What level of margin would these consider adequate. Some will expect maybe that these rearers will give a subsidy of part of there SFP to these profitable dairy operations

    Totally agree 100%. I'm in an arrangement for some years as well as rearing some of our own.

    There's as many dairy guys looking for a sucker as beef guys.

    Must be just reward for both sides. It was a steep learning curve for our guy the first year as his grass management left a lot to de desired as did turn out date


  • #50
    freedominacup
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,920 ✭✭✭freedominacup


    Farmer Pudsey wrote: »
    Milking cows, summer grazing, spring lamb are all only grass managment as well. They are not Black arts either. It always amazes me that there is a certain fraternity in the dairying area that consider that other sectors should subsidise there profitable sector. They seem to have an innate ability to find suckers to believe there spin.

    Contract rearing is not rocket science but will require certain management skills. The option is there to do it in house either by reducing cow numbers on milking platform or renting land and rearing them with own labour

    However if this is to be a new industry within the farming sector then those that partake will require a margin. If these Dairy farmers thing that some drystock farmers will take this up and carry out the enterprise without an adequate margin go and find these inviduals. There will be some idiots out there.

    I see few have argued with my costs but there seems to be a section that have an issue with a margin being added for the farmer rearing the heifers. What level of margin would these consider adequate. Some will expect maybe that these rearers will give a subsidy of part of there SFP to these profitable dairy operations

    You have no idea pudsey. I pulled a guy up at a meeting a couple of months ago on it. He was declaring about all the extra cows he was going to carry in 2 years time, how it would be no bother to acheive this stocking rate as all his heifers would be contract reared. I asked was there much of a difference in price between all of the various drystock farmers advertising in the comic looking for farmers to give them heifers to contract rear. He looked at me like my head was going to spin off. As far he was concerned all he had to do was pick up the phone and inform the drystock farmer of his choice that the beef guy had been chosen from a list of candidates to rear this mans heifers and that he'd start dropping down calves around the 1st of March. A man in dire need of a kick in the hole.


  • #51
    frazzledhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,278 ✭✭✭frazzledhome


    freedominacup wrote: »
    You have no idea pudsey. I pulled a guy up at a meeting a couple of months ago on it. He was declaring about all the extra cows he was going to carry in 2 years time, how it would be no bother to acheive this stocking rate as all his heifers would be contract reared. I asked was there much of a difference in price between all of the various drystock farmers advertising in the comic looking for farmers to give them heifers to contract rear. He looked at me like my head was going to spin off. As far he was concerned all he had to do was pick up the phone and inform the drystock farmer of his choice that the beef guy had been chosen from a list of candidates to rear this mans heifers and that he'd start dropping down calves around the 1st of March. A man in dire need of a kick in the hole.

    He's an arrogant bollix, the likes of those guys could ruin it for others or maybe its a good thing.

    Warren Buffet always said that in a deal there must be something in it for the buyer


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  • #52
    Farmer Pudsey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,326 ✭✭✭Farmer Pudsey


    freedominacup wrote: »
    You have no idea pudsey. I pulled a guy up at a meeting a couple of months ago on it. He was declaring about all the extra cows he was going to carry in 2 years time, how it would be no bother to acheive this stocking rate as all his heifers would be contract reared. I asked was there much of a difference in price between all of the various drystock farmers advertising in the comic looking for farmers to give them heifers to contract rear. He looked at me like my head was going to spin off. As far he was concerned all he had to do was pick up the phone and inform the drystock farmer of his choice that the beef guy had been chosen from a list of candidates to rear this mans heifers and that he'd start dropping down calves around the 1st of March. A man in dire need of a kick in the hole.

    He is in for a shock, most drystock farmers will not want to see said calves until 10 weeks of age. Most part time farmers are caught time wise bid difference between rearing from 10 weeks going to grass in late April and rearing calves from 2-4 weeks of age,


  • #53
    trg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 380 ✭✭trg


    If a potential rearer was interested in this, has decent set up etc. then where would you look for potential clients? Not too many potentials in this neck of the woods.

    I imagine there is always a contract in place, would Teagasc do templates?


  • #54
    keep going
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,551 ✭✭✭keep going


    49801 wrote: »
    Many good points being made in this thread.
    It must work for both parties

    One advantage for the rearer as I see it is they do not have capital tied up in stock.

    This is a huge advantage.fellas use phrases here like minding someone elses cattle but alot of cattle are bought with stocking loans and reared with merchant credit which could take a 100 euro off an animal in interest .


  • #55
    keep going
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,551 ✭✭✭keep going


    Farmer Pudsey wrote: »
    Milking cows, summer grazing, spring lamb are all only grass managment as well. They are not Black arts either. It always amazes me that there is a certain fraternity in the dairying area that consider that other sectors should subsidise there profitable sector. They seem to have an innate ability to find suckers to believe there spin.

    Contract rearing is not rocket science but will require certain management skills. The option is there to do it in house either by reducing cow numbers on milking platform or renting land and rearing them with own labour

    However if this is to be a new industry within the farming sector then those that partake will require a margin. If these Dairy farmers thing that some drystock farmers will take this up and carry out the enterprise without an adequate margin go and find these inviduals. There will be some idiots out there.

    I see few have argued with my costs but there seems to be a section that have an issue with a margin being added for the farmer rearing the heifers. What level of margin would these consider adequate. Some will expect maybe that these rearers will give a subsidy of part of there SFP to these profitable dairy operations

    Totally agree but I would make the point that some beef farmers have been subsidizing larry goodman with years.one point about choosing and making a deal with a rearer is he is holding your stock and an extra 100 euro is nothing in bad heifers so if he is doing a good job I'd mind him


  • #56
    RightTurnClyde
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,143 ✭✭✭RightTurnClyde


    I'm considering getting the heifers contract reared next year. I happier looking after them from 0-12 months myself. Where my weak spot ( available ground And time) is the 12-20 month stage.
    I've been approached by a local guy who wants to rear some heifers. The plan would be maidens to his place around 1st of March and back sometime in November. He would be providing ground, herding, fert and heat detection/organising them for AI. Vet and AI, I'd be covering myself. He's only over the road so I'd be able to keep and eye on them when I want. There'd be no other stock mixing with mine.
    I'm thinking 1€/day/head. He seems very happy with this. Is this a fair price. Don't want to do the dog on him, he's a youngish lad and could do with a help up.


  • #57
    exercise is the antidote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 346 ✭✭exercise is the antidote


    RightTurnClyde wrote: »
    I'm considering getting the heifers contract reared next year. I happier looking after them from 0-12 months myself. Where my weak spot ( available ground And time) is the 12-20 month stage.
    I've been approached by a local guy who wants to rear some heifers. The plan would be maidens to his place around 1st of March and back sometime in November. He would be providing ground, herding, fert and heat detection/organising them for AI. Vet and AI, I'd be covering myself. He's only over the road so I'd be able to keep and eye on them when I want. There'd be no other stock mixing with mine.
    I'm thinking 1€/day/head. He seems very happy with this. Is this a fair price. Don't want to do the dog on him, he's a youngish lad and could do with a help up.

    Who's going to pay the meal bill?!


  • #58
    Sam Kade
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,309 ✭✭✭✭Sam Kade


    exercise is the antidote wrote: »
    Who's going to pay the meal bill?!

    March to November they shouldn't need any meal.


  • #59
    exercise is the antidote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 346 ✭✭exercise is the antidote


    Could need abit all the same.


  • #60
    Milked out
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,433 ✭✭✭Milked out


    Heifers need no ration in second year at grass perhaps a Kg or so for a few weeks to get them in to yard for Ai or if weather is wet early on


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  • #61
    RightTurnClyde
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,143 ✭✭✭RightTurnClyde


    exercise is the antidote wrote: »
    Who's going to pay the meal bill?!

    That's why I prefer getting them to the 12 month mark myself. Prefer to do the pushing from 0-12. Havn't had to go in with meals from the 12-20 month stage myself. If there was an issue with meals during the bulling season I'd be the one coughing up, but usually not an issue. They wouldn't be stock heavy where they're going.


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