Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Notes in OP,22/7

spiralism · 17-07-2014 12:23PM

Going to miss this with work but i'm feeling this press conference will be absolute box office and he's going to tear a couple of journalists to shreds.

Larry Wildman · 17-07-2014 12:23PM

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

Some amount of revisionist history stuff going here.

Moyes given a hospital pass? He was given a side that was champions with a world class goalkeeper, two world class front men, and some very good players other than that - more than enough to beat the likes of West Brom and Fulham (which we didn't whilst playing dross). It was Moyes who couldn't identify quickly enough who needed to be moved on and who needed to be brought in, and then panic bought Fellaini who was equally dross.

Ferguson can be rightly criticised for selecting Moyes and for not dealing with the midfield over a number of years but saying we were in massive trouble is a bit much.

You've fallen into the classic trap.

Yes we were champions and yes we had romped home but in reality it was the worst United team/squad in years with glaring weaknesses in the side.

To use a movie analogy, I'd say we entered the 2013/2014 season like Rocky Balboa did in his first fight against Clubber Lang.

"Sure we're champions...by 11 points...what could go wrong?"

Our squad and first team was actually sh1te relative to previous United teams and relative to both City and Chelsea.

Who's to blame? Fergie.

FutureGuy · 17-07-2014 12:24PM

ToiletFusion wrote: »

I felt at stage near the end of last season when we were playing fairly dire, Kagawa and Mata in the same team was very promising. There's a video on Youtube defending Kagawa, from a while back basically claiming he's making the right runs and threading through the right passes but no one's showing for him. I know a video like this is very directly pro Kagawa but I do feel there's a place for someone with his invention.

Just wish he was a little less lightweight

Yep it showed all the intelligent runs and moves he was making and his team mates were completely oblivious to them, instead opting for another option (usually non-attacking).

I think Kagawa will be "seen to improve" more than any other player under LVG.

Will I Amnt · 17-07-2014 12:24PM

Larry Wildman wrote: »

You absolutely can and it's bonkers to suggest otherwise.

He plays in a position where we're already covered. There are other areas of the team which desperately need attention. I'd also be wary of the fact that Mourinho wanted rid of him and other suitors seemed to be thin on the ground.

I like Mata and I think that he'll do well at United but there's way too much overexhuberance about him on these pages. It's reminiscent of fans' views around Dimitar Berbatov and Shinji Kagawa who receive far too much love relative to their achievements at the club in my humble opinion. I'd classify both as "bad" signings with the caveat that Kagawa hasn't really been given a fair crack of the whip in my view.

If you didn't selectively quote one little line of my post you would show that what I actually alluded to was that you can't question the logic of his signing unless you have proof that it was a reason why we didn't sign somebody else that was needed more.

He was one of the very best players in the league before Mourinho took over, do you agree with that?

markcahill1985 · 17-07-2014 12:26PM

Hope LVG Rock Bottoms Jaime Jackson through a table when he asks about transfers at the presser today!

Rayne Wooney · 17-07-2014 12:27PM

There seems to be a myth that Kagawa isn't physical enough for the premier league, when compared with others the likes of Mata and Rooney are dispossessed a lot more than him

Larry Wildman · 17-07-2014 12:28PM

Will I Amnt wrote: »

If you didn't selectively quote one little line of my post you would show that what I actually alluded to was that you can't question the logic of his signing unless you have proof that it was a reason why we didn't sign somebody else that was needed more.

But the proof of the pudding is in the eating...we desperately needed other types of players and all we did was sign another flashy number 10.

No club has infinite resources so given that we have Rooney and Kagawa, I do question the logic of his signing.

And we didn't sign anyone else.

Larry Wildman · 17-07-2014 12:29PM

Kind of depressing that Toni Kroos and £3.5m gets you Marouane Fellaini...

Lord TSC · 17-07-2014 12:30PM

Larry Wildman wrote: »

But the proof of the pudding is in the eating...we desperately needed other types of players and all we did was sign another flashy number 10.

Just because Event A (Signing Mata) preceded Non-Event B (Not signing anyone else) doesn't mean that A caused B. That's a massive logical fallacy.

I don't for one second believe that we didn't have the funds or inclination to try signing other players than Mata; I think that the problems were with the fact Moyes was our manager (Players didn't trust him, either in terms of his vision or that he'd still be there 6 months later).

Will I Amnt · 17-07-2014 12:30PM

Larry Wildman wrote: »

But the proof of the pudding is in the eating...we desperately needed other types of players and all we did was sign another flashy number 10.

No club has infinite resources so given that we have Rooney and Kagawa, I do question the logic of his signing.

And we didn't sign anyone else.

Sure there wasn't a centre mid signed for years before that. It was just continuing on the ignoring of the problem.
I'd rather sign Mata and ignore CM than nobody and still ignore CM.

The_Kew_Tour · 17-07-2014 12:35PM

Just couple of things on Kroos.

Were we interested - Yes
Did I ever think it world happen - 99% no, why?

Well in fairness Moyes made attempts, but it was quite obvious Kroos wanted to play CL football.

If we were going to lose out I rather get beat by Madrid then any PL club or PSG or someone like that.

No annoyance from me when he picks Madrid.

Kroos really was a huge outside bet from beginning. Going for 25million is annoying, but the reason we "cooled" our interest was not because we did not want him, its because of no CL and Madrid calling, sadly.

ericzeking · 17-07-2014 12:37PM

Larry Wildman wrote: »

Kind of depressing that Toni Kroos and £3.5m gets you Marouane Fellaini...

Madrid are almost the opposite to us, they can negotiate the price down because players are so desperate to play there, we have to pay the going rate or above because the players themselves don't neccessarily want to move to rainy, cold Manchester and not play in the Champions League.

Still though it is some value for Kroos...we have to be missing something...not loved at Bayern and let go for modest sum, there must be a glitch somewhere...

RobertKK · 17-07-2014 12:38PM

In 6 or 7 years time Kroos might move to United, he will have played at the three biggest teams in Europe then...

The Moldy Gowl · 17-07-2014 12:42PM

This place is awful bitchy today.

Bangkok, any word from your brother?

Anything about carrington or training?

redbaron_99 · 17-07-2014 12:43PM

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

This place is awful bitchy today.

Bangkok, any word from your brother?

Anything about carrington or training?

Partly my fault.

Just for once I felt this summer the club should have gone all out to get some top players. It seems unlikely at this point. Hopefully I'm wrong.

Pro. F · 17-07-2014 12:51PM

Fergie could have retired at any point in the last 20 years and there would have been idiots talking about how the squad/play/transfers/tea ladies had been declining and how it was his fault that the success didn't continue when he left because, despite winning everything, he hadn't been managing the team the way they think he should have been.

Fergie always made a few baffling decisions and always had a few seeming weaknesses in his squad but he always won. The idea that he wouldn't have continued to bring success if he'd stayed at the club (ie the idea that there were issues in the team so serious that they would have brought down any manager) is utter bollocks. He left his successor with a deep and well disciplined squad sprinkled with world class talent and with massive money available to spend on transfers. The fact that Moyes fůcked all that up is down to his inadequacy as a manager, not any recent decline in Fergie's management of the club.

alchemist33 · 17-07-2014 12:54PM

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

LVG is holding his first press conference @ 15:00hrs. I don't have MUTV so does anyone know where I could get it live? Feel free to PM me if you have a solution.

TalkSport said they were going to broadcast it, if that's any good to anyone.

The Moldy Gowl · 17-07-2014 12:55PM

redbaron_99 wrote: »

Partly my fault.

Just for once I felt this summer the club should have gone all out to get some top players. It seems unlikely at this point. Hopefully I'm wrong.

Its only half way through the window and our manager is in manchester for his second day.

Id say he has a few players he wants to bring in and just wants 100% clarification they will be right to blend in with the squad, or waiting on scout reports or clubs to get back to him.

this time next week there will be at least 3 transfers.

We will buy a Lb #ITK

He hasnt actually bought any of his players, just approved 2 for 2 weak spots in the team.

Cheer up.

redbaron_99 · 17-07-2014 12:57PM

Pro. F wrote: »

Fergie could have retired at any point in the last 20 years and there would have been idiots talking about how the squad/play/transfers/tea ladies had been declining and how it was his fault that the success didn't continue when he left because, despite winning everything, he hadn't been managing the team the way they think he should have been.

Fergie always made a few baffling decisions and always had a few seeming weaknesses in his squad but he always won. The idea that he wouldn't have continued to bring success if he'd stayed at the club (ie the idea that there were issues in the team so serious that they would have brought down any manager) is utter bollocks. He left his successor with a deep and well disciplined squad sprinkled with world class talent and with massive money available to spend on transfers. The fact that Moyes fůcked all that up is down to his inadequacy as a manager, not any recent decline in Fergie's management of the club.

It's not a debate about Moyes.
And take off the blinkers and look at the quality between summer 2008 and summer 2013.
The squad was slowly rotting. If you're happy to be blind to that, go ahead.

Will I Amnt · 17-07-2014 12:57PM

alchemist33 wrote: »

TalkSport said they were going to broadcast it, if that's any good to anyone.

Sky have it live too.

redbaron_99 · 17-07-2014 01:01PM

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Sky have it live too.

What time does it start at?
I have a feeling it will cheer me up no end

Pro. F · 17-07-2014 01:02PM

redbaron_99 wrote: »

It's not a debate about Moyes.
And take off the blinkers and look at the quality between summer 2008 and summer 2013.
The squad was slowly rotting. If you're happy to be blind to that, go ahead.

Slowly rotting my arse. You are talking bollocks.

redbaron_99 · 17-07-2014 01:07PM

Pro. F wrote: »

Slowly rotting my arse. You are talking bollocks.

I'm not actually.

Vidic Ferdinand Evra of 2008 were a completely different prospect to the same players 5 years later. Rotting defence.

Hargreaves, Carrick, Scholes, pre-illness Fletcher were far superior to Carrick and Scholes 5 years later, post illness Fletcher, Cleverley and Anderson. Rotting midfield.

Ronaldo - Valencia

I could keep going. Couldn't be arsed.

Mitch Connor · 17-07-2014 01:07PM

Pro. F wrote: »

Slowly rotting my arse. You are talking bollocks.

Compare the squad and quality of the United side in the CL Final 08, with the United squad Moyes took over.

They are WORLDS apart.

The Moldy Gowl · 17-07-2014 01:08PM

Pro. F wrote: »

Slowly rotting my arse. You are talking bollocks.

maybe not rotting, going stagnant.

The_Kew_Tour · 17-07-2014 01:11PM

like any manager around the block when old age catches up so too does keeping more loyal. Micko for Kerry as example.

Fergie got bit too loyal with age.

I dont agree that he let the team rot, but he became bit too loyal to players not delivering and maybe too arrogant to admit faults.

the summer of 2011 should have been the summer we sorted out the CM mess. 3 years on and its only starting.

in fairness bar CM Fergie left the successor in decent place.

bangkok · 17-07-2014 01:13PM

redbaron_99 wrote: »

It's not a debate about Moyes.
And take off the blinkers and look at the quality between summer 2008 and summer 2013.
The squad was slowly rotting. If you're happy to be blind to that, go ahead.

ah stop, how exactly?

fergie signed a goal keeper that will probably be the best in the world in a few years and united goalie for the next 10-15 years

signed Rafael for right back, got in the best young defender in Britain to replace rio and vidic in jones. signed smalling for a great price still time for him to develop into a top defender.

he had the best midfield ever in the premier league that we ill probably never see again in beckham scholes keane giggs and he tried numerous times to improve that. signed veron and he flopped. owen hargreves was a top player but injuries took him away. signed kleberson a world cup winner and he wasn't up to it. Djemba djembe was meant to be the best midfielder in france. the list goes on.

up front he brought in a young Javier hernandez who turned out to be a bargin and signed the best striker in the league rvp so this "squad was slowly rotting" is nonsense

Al Capwned · 17-07-2014 01:19PM

Ferguson needs to shoulder a huge amount of blame for the state of our midfield.

Owen Hargreaves was signed in 2007. Name another midfielder that was brought in after him that improved the team?
Despite the glaring need to improve, especially after 09 and 11.....
It really is shocking that it's taken the guts of three years to improve an area of the field that every United supporter and his dog could see was a problem.

Will I Amnt · 17-07-2014 01:21PM

redbaron_99 wrote: »

What time does it start at?
I have a feeling it will cheer me up no end

15:00 Sky Sports News.

redbaron_99 · 17-07-2014 01:22PM

bangkok wrote: »

ah stop, how exactly?

fergie signed a goal keeper that will probably be the best in the world in a few years and united goalie for the next 10-15 years

signed Rafael for right back, got in the best young defender in Britain to replace rio and vidic in jones. signed smalling for a great price still time for him to develop into a top defender.

he had the best midfield ever in the premier league that we ill probably never see again in beckham scholes keane giggs and he tried numerous times to improve that. signed veron and he flopped. owen hargreves was a top player but injuries took him away. signed kleberson a world cup winner and he wasn't up to it. Djemba djembe was meant to be the best midfielder in france. the list goes on.

up front he brought in a young Javier hernandez who turned out to be a bargin and signed the best striker in the league rvp so this "squad was slowly rotting" is nonsense

Right, yeah.

Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Notes in OP,22/7

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