Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Notes in OP,22/7

Al Capwned · 17-07-2014 11:22AM

David de Gea is a world class goalkeeper....

DM_7 · 17-07-2014 11:23AM

bucketybuck wrote: »

If you are judging by the merits of the time then it was a poor signing because like I said the signing did not change our fortunes in the slightest. Players and signings are a means to an end and the signing of Mata did not achieve anything.

A good signing would have made an impact on the teams performances, a proper midfielder might even have gotten us into fourth place, thats the standard a signing should be judged by not some nebulous delight just to have him on board.

I'm very happy he is a United player and in the long run I am confident he will contribute, but in the short term it just wasn't what we needed and so was a poor signing by the merits of the time.

Midfield should have been sorted or at least a stop gap arranged in January. I don't believe signing Mata stopped that happening.

redbaron_99 · 17-07-2014 11:24AM

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

While I find it very hard to believe that there will be no more signings, Van Gaal showed at the World Cup that he is able to take some limited players, sprinkled with a couple of greats, and have them perform to a high standard as a unit. It shouldn't be all doom and gloom either way.

Much harder to do that over the course of an entire season. And he shouldn't have to try get a group of players to punch above their weight. We're Manchester United FFS.

Larry Wildman · 17-07-2014 11:24AM

redbaron_99 wrote: »

You don't have much knowledge of football.

If you've drawn that conclusion from my statement about it being to early to judge Mata as a signing, you don't have much knowledge of life.

Mata may turn out to be a great player for United, but at this stage it's just too early to say.

I was not claiming that he is "unproven" in the way that (say) Luke Shaw is. Unproven in terms of a good/bad/middling signing.

I still think that signing him was akin to sticking a home cinema into your house when part of your roof has fallen in.

Cookiemunster · 17-07-2014 11:25AM

redbaron_99 wrote: »

Much harder to do that over the course of an entire season. And he shouldn't have to try get a group of players to punch above their weight. We're Manchester United FFS.

That's basically what Fergie did for the last 3-4 years of his reign.

Maximus Alexander · 17-07-2014 11:27AM

redbaron_99 wrote: »

Much harder to do that over the course of an entire season. And he shouldn't have to try get a group of players to punch above their weight. We're Manchester United FFS.

This is pretty much exactly what United have done for the last 20 years.

Larry Wildman · 17-07-2014 11:31AM

DM-ICE wrote: »

For me you have to judge the signing in its merits at the time if we are talking about how transfer business is done. He was a great signing, he is a great player. I couldn't be any happier that he was signed. It was a great bit of business as United were able to get a player that Chelsea wouldn't have sold to United if they waited till the summer.

In the long run it may not work out but that is a different issue.

It's not really.

It remains to be seen whether he was a great/good/middling/terrible signing.

It's just too early to tell.

Claiming otherwise doesn't make sense.

redbaron_99 · 17-07-2014 11:32AM

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

This is pretty much exactly what United have done for the last 20 years.

I wouldn't agree with that. At times, yes, and for different reasons.
Were we punching above our weight when Blackburn spent big? No, we had the better players.
Were we punching above our weight in the late 90s? No, we were the best team in Europe.
Again, we had the best team in 2008. And one of the best teams in Europe for a couple of years after that.

It's beside the point, the club is a financial powerhouse but we fail to address the problems in the squad. Unforgivable.

RANT! See what you've done to me, Homer! :pac:

homerjay2005 · 17-07-2014 11:33AM

glued wrote: »

Varane is by far the best young CB around at the minute. There is no chance Madrid will let him go

Madrid are liable to do anything. if there was one club that could sell a player like Varane, it is them, but they would need to be signing a big player first before they sell.

Montroseee · 17-07-2014 11:35AM

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

This is pretty much exactly what United have done for the last 20 years.

Not in Europe.

Samoa Joe · 17-07-2014 11:36AM

Is LVG's Press conference going to be shown on Sky Sports News or is it exclusive to MUFC?

Larry Wildman · 17-07-2014 11:38AM

redbaron_99 wrote: »

It's beside the point, the club is a financial powerhouse but we fail to address the problems in the squad

And who's to blame? Fergie.

He neglected our midfield. He anointed the wrong guy. Arguably the greatest manager in history but not above criticism.

merlinsmerryman · 17-07-2014 11:38AM

Ciaran_Corbett wrote: »

Is LVG's Press conference going to be shown on Sky Sports News or is it exclusive to MUFC?

Sky Sports News are saying they will have it but it could be a thing that it's a few minutes behind MUTV.

DM_7 · 17-07-2014 11:42AM

Larry Wildman wrote: »

It's not really.

It remains to be seen whether he was a great/good/middling/terrible signing.

It's just too early to tell.

Claiming otherwise doesn't make sense.

It remains to be seen if he will be a success at United, that is not up for debate.

I have no doubt getting one of the best players in the league, from a club United refused to deal with for Rooney and wouldn't be available to United come the summer was a good bit of work from the club.

redbaron_99 · 17-07-2014 11:42AM

Larry Wildman wrote: »

And who's to blame? Fergie.

He neglected our midfield. He anointed the wrong guy. Arguably the greatest manager in history but not above criticism.

Oh, I agree and have said a few times on here.
For the last three years of his time, his squad management was poor.

Larry Wildman · 17-07-2014 11:43AM

Mad stuff re Mata. Over the top praise of his signing. It remains to be seen whether he will be chalked down as a "goodie" or a "baddie".

You may as well say that Herrera has been a great signing.

We don't know yet.

Larry Wildman · 17-07-2014 11:46AM

redbaron_99 wrote: »

Oh, I agree and have said a few times on here.
For the last three years of his time, his squad management was poor.

His development (or non development) of Phil Jones was pretty neglectful and the less said about the Pogba debacle the better.

Fergie is my football hero but I'm kind of coming around to my old man's view that he lost the plot a bit towards the end.

bangkok · 17-07-2014 11:50AM

redbaron_99 wrote: »

Oh, I agree and have said a few times on here.
For the last three years of his time, his squad management was poor.

his last 3 season united finished 1st, 2nd and 1st. The season they finished 2nd they lost the league on goal difference to 2 last min man city goals!!!!!!!!!!

if that is poor squad management every manager might as well pack it in right now

redbaron_99 · 17-07-2014 11:54AM

Larry Wildman wrote: »

His development (or non development) of Phil Jones was pretty neglectful and the less said about the Pogba debacle the better.

Fergie is my football hero but I'm kind of coming around to my old man's view that he lost the plot a bit towards the end.

He persisted with Carrick, Cleverley and Anderson in midfield. Brought Scholes back instead of buying in a top player. Also preferred Giggs and Jones over younger players. Preferred Park and Fabio ahead of Pogba - and we know what happened there.

Brought in Smalling and Jones (for relatively large fees) and only used them as back up for Vidic, Rio and Rafeal - instead of biting the bullet and giving them time to forge a new defence.

I could also make the point about wingers. Constantly playing Valencia despite him being rubbish. Buying in Young, Zaha. Buying Buttner.
There just didn't seem to be a direction to what he was doing. More of a case of trying to keep the wheels on the track.

The arguement to this will always be "oh, well he kept winning trophies". Yes, he did. But the quality of our play was on the slide for a couple of years before he went, over reliance on players like Vidic, RVP and Rooney. And I think it was only a matter of time before the wheels did come off. Sadly, for David Moyes, it happened as soon as he took over.

We should have went out this summer and tried to make the step up by buying in 3 or 4 world class players. At this moment, it looks like more of the same for us.

redbaron_99 · 17-07-2014 11:55AM

bangkok wrote: »

his last 3 season united finished 1st, 2nd and 1st. The season they finished 2nd they lost the league on goal difference to 2 last min man city goals!!!!!!!!!!

if that is poor squad management every manager might as well pack it in right now

You clearly don't know what I mean by squad management.

Spazdarn · 17-07-2014 11:56AM

Difference between man management and squad management.

He squeezed every inch of ability of players on the pitch, but as mentioned, he didn't give Pogba a chance, when everyone else saw he was good enough, our midfield was also dire and he lost the cutting edge at the end of his tenure... the Fergie of a decade ago would have torn through that midfield, removing the dross... years ago.

RobertKK · 17-07-2014 11:57AM

Mata showed signs he was settling in well towards the end of the season, the goals were coming and he was one of our best players.

He is proven in the Premier League, doubting him is not based on anything solid.

Will I Amnt · 17-07-2014 11:57AM

When a player like Mata becomes available, you take him. Can't believe some people are suggesting it might not have been a wise move, unless you have proof that it has stopped the club signing other players that were needed more. Even if he were to flop, not that he will, you can't question the logic behind the signing.

redbaron_99 · 17-07-2014 11:58AM

ToiletFusion wrote: »

Difference between man management and squad management.

He squeezed every inch of ability of players on the pitch, but as mentioned, he didn't give Pogba a chance, when everyone else saw he was good enough, our midfield was also dire and he lost the cutting edge at the end of his tenure... the Fergie of a decade ago would have torn through that midfield, removing the dross... years ago.

This.
Yeah, we did keep winning trophies, but that was down to his abaility to beat lower level teams.
The warning sign came when City murdered us at OT a few years ago.

Son Of A Vidic · 17-07-2014 12:03PM

LVG is holding his first press conference @ 15:00hrs. I don't have MUTV so does anyone know where I could get it live? Feel free to PM me if you have a solution.

Spazdarn · 17-07-2014 12:03PM

redbaron_99 wrote: »

This.
Yeah, we did keep winning trophies, but that was down to his abaility to beat lower level teams.
The warning sign came when City murdered us at OT a few years ago.

Again he may have been hampered by the Glaziers and not admit it in the press. I doubt the money was really actually there to be spent, it's no surprise we've only started spending big sums again when it was evident that without the Fergie effect, some of the squad aren't up to it.

Fergie is legendary, but he's not faultless. A career that long, it's easy to point out situations where he made bad decisions... he done a hell of a lot more right

Larry Wildman · 17-07-2014 12:06PM

bangkok wrote: »

his last 3 season united finished 1st, 2nd and 1st. The season they finished 2nd they lost the league on goal difference to 2 last min man city goals!!!!!!!!!!

if that is poor squad management every manager might as well pack it in right now

That's a very simplistic analysis.

The seeds for last season were sown by Fergie over the previous number of seasons.

Once City and Chelsea got their acts together, we were in big trouble.

Moyes was out of his depth, but he was given a hospital pass by Fergie. The "but we were champions by 11 points" kicker just clouds the matter - We romped home top of a bad league because RVP went gangbusters and Chelsea and City were a rabble.

UnitedIrishman · 17-07-2014 12:15PM

Some amount of revisionist history stuff going here.

Moyes given a hospital pass? He was given a side that was champions with a world class goalkeeper, two world class front men, and some very good players other than that - more than enough to beat the likes of West Brom and Fulham (which we didn't whilst playing dross). It was Moyes who couldn't identify quickly enough who needed to be moved on and who needed to be brought in, and then panic bought Fellaini who was equally dross.

Ferguson can be rightly criticised for selecting Moyes and for not dealing with the midfield over a number of years but saying we were in massive trouble is a bit much.

Larry Wildman · 17-07-2014 12:16PM

Will I Amnt wrote: »

you can't question the logic behind the signing.

You absolutely can and it's bonkers to suggest otherwise.

He plays in a position where we're already covered. There are other areas of the team which desperately need attention. I'd also be wary of the fact that Mourinho wanted rid of him and other suitors seemed to be thin on the ground.

I like Mata and I think that he'll do well at United but there's way too much overexhuberance about him on these pages. It's reminiscent of fans' views around Dimitar Berbatov and Shinji Kagawa who receive far too much love relative to their achievements at the club in my humble opinion. I'd classify both as "bad" signings with the caveat that Kagawa hasn't really been given a fair crack of the whip in my view.

Spazdarn · 17-07-2014 12:19PM

I felt at stage near the end of last season when we were playing fairly dire, Kagawa and Mata in the same team was very promising. There's a video on Youtube defending Kagawa, from a while back basically claiming he's making the right runs and threading through the right passes but no one's showing for him. I know a video like this is very directly pro Kagawa but I do feel there's a place for someone with his invention.

Just wish he was a little less lightweight

Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Notes in OP,22/7

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