Private Minibus & BusLanes

16-07-2014 09:08PM

Just looked up the price of taxi plate. It's €6300 which is mad but a wheelchair accessible taxi is only €125 plus a €45 initial inspection fee. Surely every taxi driver would just get a wheelchair accessible taxi then. Or am I reading it wrong? I know you'd need signage then though. Would a hackney be allowed to drive in the bus lanes when on the way to a job?

Markcheese · 16-07-2014 09:08PM

A ten seater mini bus is going to be like a transit or master or sprinter... Presume insurance would be steep enough (around same levels as a taxi ?? ) . Tax at private levels wouldn't be too bad on a pre 08 van as most of the engines would be 2 to 2.5 litre , licence would be the breaker if you haven't got one , ( do you need to do ongoing training as well ? )
And as someone above said you get stuck behind a frequently stopping bus...

Spook_ie · 16-07-2014 09:12PM

CiniO wrote: »

True.

Not true.
Large PSV tax rates are actually pretty low (154 for up to 20 seater, 403 for 41 seater and bigger)
But to be able to avail of them, you would need to have a licence for passenger transport. If you buy a bus as private individual or company which doesn't have licence for passenger transport, then only option of taxing the bus is on engine size rates (same as private tax).

<snipped>

Private individual can buy a bus for himself the same was as he can buy a car or motorbike. No need to register as sole trader or company.

But I would contend that it would no longer be a " Bus " and therefore not allowed to use the bus lane, one would assume that the tax category would be changed to show private and ( I assume ) that an ANPR or manual number check would highlight it as not being a bus

Spook_ie · 16-07-2014 09:15PM

MAXFANTANA wrote: »

Just looked up the price of taxi plate. It's €6300 which is mad but a wheelchair accessible taxi is only €125 plus a €45 initial inspection fee. Surely every taxi driver would just get a wheelchair accessible taxi then. Or am I reading it wrong? I know you'd need signage then though. Would a hackney be allowed to drive in the bus lanes when on the way to a job?

No licenses being issued at the moment for standard taxis, a WAT would fit the bill ( as long as you have the requisite SPSV drivers license ) but the cost can be prohibitive as you are subjected to age factors and fitting out costs.
Hackneys and Limos are prohibited from bus lanes during hours of operation

EDIT

Example of taxi costs
http://www.parfit.ie/productinfo.php?id=218

Nice motor but 2010 would need replacing again in 2019 ( 9 year age rule ) @ €23000 RRP

or you could convert an existing vehicle
http://parfit.ie/productinfo.php?id=102 €7000 + 13.5% VAT

CiniO · 16-07-2014 10:04PM

Spook_ie wrote: »

But I would contend that it would no longer be a " Bus " and therefore not allowed to use the bus lane, one would assume that the tax category would be changed to show private and ( I assume ) that an ANPR or manual number check would highlight it as not being a bus

Type of vehicle is not determined by it's tax class or status of owner (company, sole trader, private individual, etc..)
If vehicle is constructed as a bus, then it's a bus, no matter how it's taxed or insured or who it's owned by.

I drive a bus on daily basis, which is owned by limited company, but taxed at private engine CC size rates. I use it fairly often on bus lanes, and I know it's fully legal.

Noccy_Mondy · 16-07-2014 10:52PM

As long you have a bus and has over the 9 seats you can use the bus lane, my Uncle who has a private company (nothing to do with Bus Eireann or any other operators) drives in them all the time as long as he's in one of the buses. Afaik tax on the likes of a transit is fairly cheap, not sure on the insurance, but you will need your D1 licence, which is expensive to get, with the mandatory lessons and what not.

To sum up.....

Get a car and suck it up like the rest of us have to :pac:

CiniO · 16-07-2014 11:06PM

Noccy_Mondy wrote: »

Afaik tax on the likes of a transit is fairly cheap,

Assuming 2.5 diesel in transit, taxed privately, it's around 1000 euro per year. Not that cheap really.

not sure on the insurance, but you will need your D1 licence, which is expensive to get, with the mandatory lessons and what not.

There's no mandatory lessons for D1 licence.

Noccy_Mondy · 16-07-2014 11:12PM

CiniO wrote: »

Assuming 2.5 diesel in transit, taxed privately, it's around 1000 euro per year. Not that cheap really.

I was taking the Uncles situation, whatever way he pays the tax it works out cheap, forgot all about taxing it privately

There's no mandatory lessons for D1 licence.

I thought there was? Must be optional

slimjimmc · 17-07-2014 12:29AM

CiniO wrote: »

You wouldn't get rumbled.
Bus lanes are to be used by buses designed to carry more then 8 passengers.
If you have one, you can use bus lanes, even if it's only for private use.
No need for any psv stickers, taxi plate or livery down the sides.

Surely that's in conflict with the law ???
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2012/en/si/0332.html

Bus Lanes
32. (1)(a) A bus lane shall be indicated by means of traffic sign number RUS 028 or traffic sign number RUS 029 used in association with traffic sign number RRM 024.
(b) A contra-flow bus lane shall be indicated by means of traffic sign number RUS 030 used in association with traffic sign number RRM 024.
(2) A person shall not enter a bus lane with a vehicle other than a large public service vehicle or a pedal cycle during the period of operation of the bus lane indicated on an information plate.
(3) A person shall not enter a contra-flow bus lane with a vehicle other than a large public service vehicle or a pedal cycle.
(4) A person shall not enter a bus-only street with a vehicle other than a large public service vehicle or a pedal cycle except for the purpose of access.
(5)(a) Sub-articles (2) and (3) do not apply to a vehicle crossing a with-flow bus lane or a contra-flow bus lane solely for the purpose—
(i) of entering or leaving premises or property adjacent to such a bus lane, or
(ii) of entering or leaving a road inset adjacent to such a bus lane in order to load or unload goods.
(b) Sub-article (2) does not apply to—
(i) a taxi or a wheelchair accessible taxi which is being used in the course of business, or
(ii) a vehicle authorised and identified in accordance with sub-article (6), being driven by a driver authorised under that sub-article, in which is being carried, a member of the Government, a Minister of State who regularly attends meetings of the Government, the Attorney General or the Ceann Comhairle, in the course of his or her duties as such.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/sec0003.html#sec3

“public service vehicle” means a mechanically propelled vehicle used for the carriage of persons for reward;

“large public service vehicle” means a public service vehicle having seating passenger accommodation for more than eight persons exclusive of the driver;

Del2005 · 17-07-2014 09:17AM

slimjimmc wrote: »

Surely that's in conflict with the law ???
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2012/en/si/0332.html

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/sec0003.html#sec3

The definition of a large public service vehicle was posted earlier. Once it has more than 10 seats it's a LPSV.

On the bus lanes. I did all my lessons for my D licence in the bus lanes, I asked my instructor and they said we are in a bus so can use bus lanes.

phatony · 17-07-2014 09:51AM

Thanks for all the replies:

1.

You don't need to do CPC if you are not earning your living as a Professional Bus Driver (your job).

Why are people saying D1 license is expensive to get?
Is it not basically just like doing a car test in a 10-seat vehicle?
Or is there some huge onerous difference?

2.
As for converting a vehicle to be a bus, any written regulations out there that ye might be able to link to please?

For example, I don't need all the 10 seats to be big enough for a grown adult.

I mean, there might be an opportunity to do something ridiculous like put 8 baby seats in a 1.6 Diesel Ford Transit connect, in the form of benches down the sides with narrow seatbelt spacings, or something!

3.
Technically, this is a bus? I can't post link, but

three wubbles dot

defendericon.com/land-rover-defender-sale/222/land-rover-defender-110-22-tdci-heritage-le-station-wagon/

VRT of €200 coz its a bus?

Road tax of €154 per year coz its a bus? And all I have to do is sit another driving test?

djimi · 17-07-2014 10:16AM

phatony wrote: »

3.
Technically, this is a bus? I can't post link, but

three wubbles dot

defendericon.com/land-rover-defender-sale/222/land-rover-defender-110-22-tdci-heritage-le-station-wagon/

VRT of €200 coz its a bus?

Road tax of €154 per year coz its a bus? And all I have to do is sit another driving test?

Even if that did fit the bill legally, Id say the amount of hassle you would get regardless would not be worth it. It doesnt look like a bus, so you are still likely to get pulled over by a Garda who wouldnt know the difference, and have the hassle of trying to explain yourself.

Del2005 · 17-07-2014 10:30AM

phatony wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies:

1.

You don't need to do CPC if you are not earning your living as a Professional Bus Driver (your job).

Why are people saying D1 license is expensive to get?
Is it not basically just like doing a car test in a 10-seat vehicle?
Or is there some huge onerous difference?

2.
As for converting a vehicle to be a bus, any written regulations out there that ye might be able to link to please?

For example, I don't need all the 10 seats to be big enough for a grown adult.

I mean, there might be an opportunity to do something ridiculous like put 8 baby seats in a 1.6 Diesel Ford Transit connect, in the form of benches down the sides with narrow seatbelt spacings, or something!

3.
Technically, this is a bus? I can't post link, but

three wubbles dot

defendericon.com/land-rover-defender-sale/222/land-rover-defender-110-22-tdci-heritage-le-station-wagon/

VRT of €200 coz its a bus?

Road tax of €154 per year coz its a bus? And all I have to do is sit another driving test?

AFAIK there are regulations for seats, or else the unscrupulous operators would just throw a load of the cheap plastic seats you used to sit on in school in the back. Can't see the DOE passing child seats in a bus.

phatony · 17-07-2014 10:30AM

djimi wrote: »

Even if that did fit the bill legally, Id say the amount of hassle you would get regardless would not be worth it. It doesnt look like a bus, so you are still likely to get pulled over by a Garda who wouldnt know the difference, and have the hassle of trying to explain yourself.

Yeah but could put a bit of sign writing on it - Private Minibus
Max Occupancy
10 Passengers

Cat D1 License Minimum

Also I read on another post that hummer limos are allowed in bus lanes, so....
Although, why isn't a car limo a bus?

phatony · 17-07-2014 10:35AM

Del2005 wrote: »

AFAIK there are regulations for seats, or else the unscrupulous operators would just throw a load of the cheap plastic seats you used to sit on in school in the back. Can't see the DOE passing child seats in a bus.

Oh I'm sure there are - but anyone know where they can be viewed?
Like NCT folk put manual on there website - not so easy to get info for my Bus!

phatony · 17-07-2014 10:50AM

CiniO wrote: »

True.

Not true.
Large PSV tax rates are actually pretty low (154 for up to 20 seater, 403 for 41 seater and bigger)
But to be able to avail of them, you would need to have a licence for passenger transport. If you buy a bus as private individual or company which doesn't have licence for passenger transport, then only option of taxing the bus is on engine size rates (same as private tax).

Hi, this is interesting - can you link to a source to show that a person would need to have a license for passenger transport in order to tax as a bus?

Like when people go to tax a bus, do they actually need to present this?

CiniO · 17-07-2014 11:11AM

phatony wrote: »

Hi, this is interesting - can you link to a source to show that a person would need to have a license for passenger transport in order to tax as a bus?

Like when people go to tax a bus, do they actually need to present this?

Yes, they do.

Below are the listed option of tax for buses:

3. (a) Vehicles constructed or adapted for the carriage of more than 8 persons which are owned by a youth or community organisation and which are used exclusively by the organisation solely for the purpose of conveying persons on journeys directly related to the activities of the organisation and which have seating capacity for—

(i) more than 8 persons but not more than 20 persons,

€143

(ii) more than 20 persons but not more than 40 persons,

€188

(iii) more than 40 persons but not more than 60 persons,

€375

(iv) more than 60 persons,

€375

(b) vehicles (other than those referred to in subparagraph (c) of this paragraph) used as large public service vehicles within the meaning of the Road Traffic Act 1961 , and having seating capacity for—

(i) more than 8 persons but not more than 20 persons,

€143

(ii) more than 20 persons but not more than 40 persons,

€188

(iii) more than 40 persons but not more than 60 persons,

€375

(iv) more than 60 persons,

€375

(c) vehicles which are large public service vehicles within the meaning of the Road Traffic Act 1961 , and which are used only for the carriage of children, or children and teachers, being carried to or from school or to or from school-related physical education activities, and are either licensed under Article 60 of the Road Traffic (Public Service Vehicles) Regulations 1963 ( S.I. No. 191 of 1963 ) as amended, or owned or operated by a statutory transport undertaking.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2012/en/act/pub/0010/print.html

So now.
Option (a) is a no go, as you are not community or youth oragnisation.
Option (b) is a no go, as it only applied to large public service vehicles within the meaning of the Road Traffic Act 1961.
Option (c) is a no go as well.

And as all 3 options are no go, then only way to tax it is under engine CC rates.

Just to clarify in relation to option (b).

“large public service vehicle” means a public service vehicle having seating passenger accommodation for more than eight persons exclusive of the driver;
“public service vehicle” means a mechanically propelled vehicle used for the carriage of persons for reward;

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/print.html
As you can see, your vehicle would need to be used for carriage of persons for reward to be classified as "large public service vehicle", and to be able to carry persons for reward, you need appropriate licence for passenger transport (which can be obtained once you have a qualification (or employ someone who has qualification) for transport manager CPC).

So in short - forget about it.

phatony · 17-07-2014 11:12AM

phatony wrote: »

Hi, this is interesting - can you link to a source to show that a person would need to have a license for passenger transport in order to tax as a bus?

Like when people go to tax a bus, do they actually need to present this?

From
kildare.ie/countycouncil/faqs/motor%20tax%20faqs/#faq25

In order to tax a vehicle at the cheap bus rate, you need a LPSV license.

But LPSV license this is attached to the vehicle - it is not required to hold a transport operators license.

From
.dttas.ie/roads/english/rtol-faqs

What is the difference between a Large Public Service Vehicle (LPSV) Licence and a Road Passenger Transport Operator Licence?
The LPSV Licence is issued by the Carriage Office of An Garda Síochána or the relevant local Garda PSV Office and requires a technical examination of the vehicle....

So I just have to get the coppers to accept that 10 seater landrover (with soft top roof!) as a LSPV.....

Anyone know where I could get info on their requirements? Garda.ie is crap.

CiniO · 17-07-2014 11:24AM

slimjimmc wrote: »

Surely that's in conflict with the law ???

I must say I'm converted here.
I was 100% certain I was right - but looks like I wasn't.

I remember looking through this some time ago, and I remember my conclusion was that a bus which is not large public service vehicle was allowed to use bus lane. I don't really know now where I looked it up.
But according to most up to date law you quoted - case looks opposite.
Buses which are not being used for carring passengers for reward, can not use bus lanes.

phatony · 17-07-2014 11:33AM

Just discovered that to get the LSPV license for a vehicle to tax it as a bus, you need to submit your operators license with the application :-(

But it might still be worth paying €1000 annual road tax if private bus can use bus lanes, given the higher earning potential it would enable access to...

So I suppose the question is what is the latest definition of a LPSV for legal access to bus lanes...?

CiniO · 17-07-2014 11:40AM

phatony wrote: »

Just discovered that to get the LSPV license for a vehicle to tax it as a bus, you need to submit your operators license with the application :-(

But it might still be worth paying €1000 annual road tax if private bus can use bus lanes, given the higher earning potential it would enable access to...

So I suppose the question is what is the latest definition of a LPSV for legal access to bus lanes...?

As far as we can see, definition shown by slimjimmc is the one most up to date.
And according to this definition, privately owned buses not used as LPSV can not use bus lanes.

phatony · 17-07-2014 11:48AM

CiniO wrote: »

After having multiple discussions with gardai along the lines of 'this is a bus lane' 'Yes, this is a bus', he went to the superintendent in Pearse St to get clarification and was told that he was as entitled to use the bus lane as any other bus was, full or not..

Was the thing with Pearse Street Superintendant a long long time ago?

Its just that there isn't a definition like

“large public service vehicle” means a public service vehicle having seating passenger accommodation for more than eight persons (exclusive of the driver) FOR REWARD.

Is "large public service vehicle" to be taken as extending or inheriting the definition of "public service vehicle" - does it not have to state it explicitly - maybe thats the reason the super confirmed it was legal.

ANYWAY - this has not been a waste of time.
If you want a fancy landrover but dont want to pay VRT - just get one with 10 seats!!!

djimi · 17-07-2014 11:55AM

The key is in the name in fairness; public service vehicle. Large or otherwise, if its not available for public hire then its not a public service vehicle.

The defintion as posted above is crystal clear in fairness; it defines a PSV, then specifies that a LPSV is a PSV that can carry 8+ passengers. You are clutching at straws at this stage tbf!

CiniO · 17-07-2014 11:57AM

phatony wrote: »

Just discovered that to get the LSPV license for a vehicle to tax it as a bus, you need to submit your operators license with the application :-(

But it might still be worth paying €1000 annual road tax if private bus can use bus lanes, given the higher earning potential it would enable access to...

So I suppose the question is what is the latest definition of a LPSV for legal access to bus lanes...?

As far as we can see, definition shown by slimjimmc is the one most up to date.
And according to this definition, privately owned buses not used as LPSV can not use bus lanes.

phatony · 17-07-2014 11:57AM

djimi wrote: »

The key is in the name in fairness; public service vehicle. Large or otherwise, if its not available for public hire then its not a public service vehicle.

The defintion as posted above is crystal clear in fairness; it defines a PSV, then specifies that a LPSV is a PSV that can carry 8+ passengers. You are clutching at straws at this stage tbf!

...but a 10 seater is still Category C €200 VRT at import, right?

CiniO · 17-07-2014 12:01PM

phatony wrote: »

...but a 10 seater is still Category C €200 VRT at import, right?

Yes

phatony · 17-07-2014 12:05PM

CiniO wrote: »

Yes

Maybe I'll start importing minibus landrovers from the uk every six months and sell them on as passenger vehicles, pocketing the VRT difference to make up the lost earnings...and stay on the northside.

phatony · 17-07-2014 12:22PM

Then again, what Garda is going to stop a privately taxed one of these:

.donedeal.ie/coaches-for-sale/iveco-3512-bus/7310198

.donedeal.ie/coaches-for-sale/mercedes-vario-814-euro-29-seater/7310535

.donedeal.ie/coaches-for-sale/iveco-3512-bus/7310198

.donedeal.ie/coaches-for-sale/mercedes-vario-bus/7191459

Noccy_Mondy · 17-07-2014 03:23PM

But sure, would you seriously go around in a bus if you were able to? The iveco one looks hideous, the 814 would be up on €30/40k. Fair enough you could use bus lanes but what about when it comes to parking. Taking a transit, once you're inside, it's a lot bigger than it looks from the outside, coming from a car it's a big difference, and take into account if there's someone else that will be driving it that might find it difficult to drive - you wouldn't get into a car parking spot. I know you're only using them as examples, but them merks for example are over 4 litre diesel, and ain't too economical in the best of times, not to mention the stop start city driving.

phatony · 17-07-2014 03:30PM

Noccy_Mondy wrote: »

But sure, would you seriously go around in a bus if you were able to? The iveco one looks hideous, the 814 would be up on €30/40k. Fair enough you could use bus lanes but what about when it comes to parking. Taking a transit, once you're inside, it's a lot bigger than it looks from the outside, coming from a car it's a big difference, and take into account if there's someone else that will be driving it that might find it difficult to drive - you wouldn't get into a car parking spot. I know you're only using them as examples, but them merks for example are over 4 litre diesel, and ain't too economical in the best of times, not to mention the stop start city driving.

The priority here is to make is feasible to take a job paying 70k-ish.
3-4k for a 2.8 Diesel Engine bus would be ok if it saved major time going from whitehall to (say) sandyford. Not a beauty Contest. Parking would be in staff car parks.

Private Minibus & BusLanes

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