Private Minibus & BusLanes

phatony · 16-07-2014 03:27PM #1

Hi,

I live in North County Dublin/Meath border area, but all the best paying job in my field are on the Southside. I can get to Dublin quickly, but nightmare thereafter - especially M50 in winter.
So take home 15-20k less in a Northside job...

So this got me thinking - bus lanes.

What is the story with private (not PSPV for public hire) minibuses driving in bus-lanes in Ireland?

Like if I buy something like a Hyundai Montana 8 seater to use as private car, can I drive legally in bus lanes?

Comparable to a works minibus that is not for hire by general public? Can they go in bus lanes?

Been looking at various official websites and I can't seem to figure it out.

Bit cheeky I know...

djimi · 16-07-2014 03:33PM

It would have to be available for hire. A taxi cannot be driven in a bus lane when it off duty for example.

mullingar · 16-07-2014 03:34PM

Cheaper to buy a taxi and get an inflatable "paying" passenger (in a poor attempt to be legal)

knucklehead6 · 16-07-2014 03:36PM

djimi wrote: »

It would have to be available for hire. A taxi cannot SHOULD NOT be driven in a bus lane when it off duty for example.

And yet all the time we see them cruising by.

However, I think they are allowed use the bus lanes when empty if they are on the way to a booking

Del2005 · 16-07-2014 03:39PM

A bus carries more than 8 passengers and the driver, so more than 10 seats, the car can only carry 8 passengers. You'd also need a D or D1 licence, these aren't cheap to get.

If you want to beat rush hour traffic get a bike, if you want really beat traffic get a motorbike.

Del2005 · 16-07-2014 03:44PM

knucklehead6 wrote: »

And yet all the time we see them cruising by.

However, I think they are allowed use the bus lanes when empty if they are on the way to a booking

Taxis can use the bus lane on the way to a call but then the OP would need to hire a radio /GPS from a taxi company so they can show the job if stopped. They then wouldn't be able to use private insurance.

phatony · 16-07-2014 03:46PM

Can a 10 seat vehicle, owned by a private entity, and not available for public hire, not drive in a bus lane?

For example can Airline branded Minibus transporting Pilots to Hotel drive in bus lane?

CiboC · 16-07-2014 03:53PM

djimi wrote: »

It would have to be available for hire. A taxi cannot be driven in a bus lane when it off duty for example.

No, that isn't correct. A private minibus can use the bus lanes.

djimi · 16-07-2014 03:55PM

CiboC wrote: »

No, that isn't correct. A private minibus can use the bus lanes.

When its on duty though? (either carrying passengers or on its way to collecting someone)

phatony · 16-07-2014 04:00PM

IF we knew what the exact law was, I would be able to assess the risk of, say, a private vehicle with smoked passanger windows - and maybe some corporate branding on the side.

Motorcycle too dangerous, too harsh in winter - this would fit well if its low risk.

knucklehead6 · 16-07-2014 04:01PM

Not getting all high horsey here but we are actively talking about facilitating you in breaking the law... I think the mods wouldn't be too happy about that.

phatony · 16-07-2014 04:03PM

knucklehead6 wrote: »

Not getting all high horsey here but we are actively talking about facilitating you in breaking the law... I think the mods wouldn't be too happy about that.

But it might actually be fully legal. So looking for help to establish the law first.
Can a private bus go in bus lanes? Yes or No. With caveats or not?

Yes there are caveats for car taxis - but maybe not for minibuses. Just be a bus?

We don't know for sure yet man!

Markcheese · 16-07-2014 04:08PM

Does a lot depend on what it's classified as ? If you've insured and taxed a 9 seater as a private vehicle, then I doubt it .

phatony · 16-07-2014 04:14PM

Markcheese wrote: »

Does a lot depend on what it's classified as ? If you've insured and taxed a 9 seater as a private vehicle, then I doubt it .

The private versus commercial thing is for cars versus vans.

All 10+ seat mininbuses are classed as VRT Category C, and business/personal does not come into it. I can't ask revenue to charge me differently because I am a private buyer.

I think this looks like a legal idea.

phatony · 16-07-2014 04:21PM

Del2005 wrote: »

A bus carries more than 8 passengers and the driver, so more than 10 seats, the car can only carry 8 passengers.

Could you please show me a link to something that proves it has to have at minimum 10 seats to qualify as a minibus?

CiboC · 16-07-2014 04:33PM

phatony wrote: »

But it might actually be fully legal. So looking for help to establish the law first.
Can a private bus go in bus lanes? Yes or No. With caveats or not?

Yes there are caveats for car taxis - but maybe not for minibuses. Just be a bus?

We don't know for sure yet man!

I'm basing this on personal experience.

My employer has a private minibus, a properly converted lwb Hiace.

After having multiple discussions with gardai along the lines of 'this is a bus lane' 'Yes, this is a bus', he went to the superintendent in Pearse St to get clarification and was told that he was as entitled to use the bus lane as any other bus was, full or not.

phatony · 16-07-2014 04:37PM

CiboC wrote: »

I'm basing this on personal experience.

My employer has a private minibus, a properly converted lwb Hiace.

After having multiple discussions with gardai along the lines of 'this is a bus lane' 'Yes, this is a bus', he went to the superintendent in Pearse St to get clarification and was told that he was as entitled to use the bus lane as any other bus was, full or not.

Excellent. I would feel better though if I had a piece of legislation to point to.

R.O.R · 16-07-2014 04:37PM

phatony wrote: »

Could you please show me a link to something that proves it has to have at minimum 10 seats to qualify as a minibus?

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/revised-vehicle-classification.html

VRT category M2.

From experience of trying to get a 9 Seater Ford Transit DOE tested, it's a car as far as the DOE centre (and for Road Tax purposes).

phatony · 16-07-2014 04:42PM

Thanks:

Unladen minibuses get about same mpg as a Honda S2000! Excepts its probably better around town since not stuck in stop and go gridlock. Still have to pay private tax on engine emissions size.

Now, If I could come up with an easy way to combine 10 seats with a small-ish car-like engine - any suggestions?

Ninap · 16-07-2014 04:47PM

Does anyone have a link to the rules governing taxi use of a bus lane?

Del2005 · 16-07-2014 04:48PM

R.O.R wrote: »

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/revised-vehicle-classification.html

VRT category M2.

From experience of trying to get a 9 Seater Ford Transit DOE tested, it's a car as far as the DOE centre (and for Road Tax purposes).

Along with licence

http://www.ndls.ie/en/Driving-Licence/driving-licence-categories.html

CiniO · 16-07-2014 04:52PM

phatony wrote: »

Hi,

I live in North County Dublin/Meath border area, but all the best paying job in my field are on the Southside. I can get to Dublin quickly, but nightmare thereafter - especially M50 in winter.
So take home 15-20k less in a Northside job...

So this got me thinking - bus lanes.

What is the story with private (not PSPV for public hire) minibuses driving in bus-lanes in Ireland?

Like if I buy something like a Hyundai Montana 8 seater to use as private car, can I drive legally in bus lanes?

Comparable to a works minibus that is not for hire by general public? Can they go in bus lanes?

Been looking at various official websites and I can't seem to figure it out.

Bit cheeky I know...

You obviously can use minibus on bus lanes, no matter if it's private owned or owned by transport operator, also no matter if it's empty or carrying passengers.
However it must be a minibus over 9 seats all together (9 passengers + 1 driver minimum). To drive that, you need D1 licence.
If you need appropriate law links, I'll be able to give them here late this evening.

CiniO · 16-07-2014 05:07PM

djimi wrote: »

It would have to be available for hire. A taxi cannot be driven in a bus lane when it off duty for example.

djimi wrote: »

When its on duty though? (either carrying passengers or on its way to collecting someone)

No such requirement.
Any minibus (over 9 seats including driver) no matter if it's taxed as PSV, school bus, or private, can be driven on bus lanes, no matter what's the purpose of this driving - private or commercial.

CiniO · 16-07-2014 05:09PM

knucklehead6 wrote: »

Not getting all high horsey here but we are actively talking about facilitating you in breaking the law... I think the mods wouldn't be too happy about that.

There is nothing in this thread which would be even close to breaking the law?
OP is asking what can he legally do.

Toyotafanboi · 16-07-2014 06:58PM

phatony wrote: »

Can a private bus go in bus lanes? Yes or No. With caveats or not?

yes a private bus can use a bus lane. i believe the term "private bus" refers to buses and mini buses belonging to privately (not state/ city) operated bus company.

my dad worked for a private bus company and i remember as i child riding along on some jobs and it would travel in the bus lanes in the city where suitable. (sometimes bus lanes wouldn't be quicker with dublin bus's in front of you stoping and starting every couple of hundred meters.)

as for can an 8 seater private family car use a bus lane? no. otherwise they would be full of chrysler voyager's, fiat ulysse's, peugeot 807's, hyundai trajets etc etc.

you could chance your arm in a privately owned transit or hiace minibus, but even at that with no livery down the sides, psv sticker or taxi plate i'd say it wouldn't be long before you're rumbled.

CiniO · 16-07-2014 08:08PM

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

you could chance your arm in a privately owned transit or hiace minibus, but even at that with no livery down the sides, psv sticker or taxi plate i'd say it wouldn't be long before you're rumbled.

You wouldn't get rumbled.
Bus lanes are to be used by buses designed to carry more then 8 passengers.
If you have one, you can use bus lanes, even if it's only for private use.
No need for any psv stickers, taxi plate or livery down the sides.

Spook_ie · 16-07-2014 08:15PM

To be fully legal

You will require a Cat D or D1 license ( D1 Minibus 9 passengers = driver to 16 passengers + driver ) a B license is not sufficient
Here

It would need to be taxed as a bus
Here

You would need a DoE test yearly minimum €198
Here

It would ( I assume ) need to be insured as a bus
Here

As long as you aren't actually using it to ferry people to concerts etc.you probably wouldn't need to register as a sole trader ( however, given the prices charged to take people to concerts it might pay for some of the other stuff! )

16-07-2014 08:28PM

Could you not just use your car as a taxi and then drive in the bus lane. You could be one of those hailo cabs and then you don't even need to pay for a radio. All you do is use a smart phone and hailo get I think 12% of your fares.

Spook_ie · 16-07-2014 08:32PM

MAXFANTANA wrote: »

Could you not just use your car as a taxi and then drive in the bus lane. You could be one of those hailo cabs and then you don't even need to pay for a radio. All you do is use a smart phone and hailo get I think 12% of your fares.

You would need

1 A taxi plate
2 PSV insurance
3 An NCT every year
4 An NCT taxi test every year ( not the same as 3 )

Note you can no longer buy or rent a taxi plate ( in theory ) as you are supposed to rent the entire package

But on the bright side you don't need Hailo

16-07-2014 08:43PM

That would all still be cheaper than taxing and running a minivan, getting a D or D1 licence and not to mention buying a minivan to replace the car you already have, wouldn't it? How much is a taxi plate. How much more is psv insurance than normal insurance? The NCT every year is the same as any older car anyway so that wouldn't be an added cost. How much is the taxi NCT test? What's the motor on a taxi? €95?And remember you can actually use your car as a taxi then! Even if you just used it for the Marley park gigs that'd go some way to offset the cost

CiniO · 16-07-2014 08:50PM

Spook_ie wrote: »

To be fully legal

You will require a Cat D or D1 license ( D1 Minibus 9 passengers = driver to 16 passengers + driver ) a B license is not sufficient
Here

True.

It would need to be taxed as a bus
Here

Not true.
Large PSV tax rates are actually pretty low (154 for up to 20 seater, 403 for 41 seater and bigger)
But to be able to avail of them, you would need to have a licence for passenger transport. If you buy a bus as private individual or company which doesn't have licence for passenger transport, then only option of taxing the bus is on engine size rates (same as private tax).

You would need a DoE test yearly minimum €198
Here

True

It would ( I assume ) need to be insured as a bus
Here

Obvously a bus would need to be insured as a bus

As long as you aren't actually using it to ferry people to concerts etc.you probably wouldn't need to register as a sole trader ( however, given the prices charged to take people to concerts it might pay for some of the other stuff! )

Private individual can buy a bus for himself the same was as he can buy a car or motorbike. No need to register as sole trader or company.

Private Minibus & BusLanes

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