Gay Cake Controversy!

Duggy747 · 08-07-2014 1:24pm

super_furry wrote: »

If a gay couple run a bakery would they be in the same position if they refused to make a cake specifically designed to support no changes to the current traditional marriage status? A 'keep marriage between a man and women' style cake.

Same if it was a person wanting a Pro-Life themed cake from a baker who is Pro-Choice and thus refuses them business.

They'd probably be applauded, story shared on social media with comments from people saying business have the right to refuse custom if they don't agree with it, etc........

dxhound2005 · 08-07-2014 1:25pm

FTA69 wrote: »

I said "eejits on this particular matter", I don't think every religious person is a fool but I do think that homophobia based on religion is silly and wrong.

Homophobia would be refusing to do business with homosexual people because they are homosexual. Refusing to do a particular business transaction with a homosexual person because that person wanted a political slogan on a cake is not homophobia.

The bakery is in step in it's political stance with the NI parliament which refused to enact SSM legislation three times.

I Heart Internet · 08-07-2014 1:29pm

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

So if they ordered a cake saying congratulations on your Civil Partnership and it was refused?

The business should have the right to refuse to make any order that it wanted. BUT NOT because the customer happens to be gay.

An alternative example might be a muslim person wanting to have a cake decorated in a way that extolled the virtue of covering up women from head to toe.

A bakery should have the right to refuse it, but NOT becasue the client is muslim.

yoke · 08-07-2014 1:30pm

osarusan wrote: »

indeed, if somebody from the Iona institute went into a bakery run by a homosexual and asked them to make a cake saying 'vote no to gay marriage', what would the response be on here?

Well, in theory the homosexual baker should just ask for payment and bake the bloody cake, its his job.

That said, if the message said "gays are an abomination" rather than "vote no to gay marriage" - it should be considered incitement to hatred, and refusing to print it is actually mandated by law, probably.

08-07-2014 1:30pm

I wonder if there would be such an out cry if somebody went into a bakery owned by a gay person and asked for a cake with a message asking people not to support gay marriage and was told that the the bakery wouldn't do it.

Tea-a-Maria · 08-07-2014 1:31pm

_Redzer_ wrote: »

Can't wait until I get to open my Muslim bakery!

Seriously, a religious bakery? How retarded. Just bake the fúcking cake

Off topic, but this reminds me of a book I saw in town one day:

"Bake through the Bible: Taste and see that the Lord is good"

SEPT 23 1989 · 08-07-2014 1:33pm

Listened to the cake shop owner on the radio there he seemed like a decent chap

old hippy · 08-07-2014 1:34pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Link to the bakery refusing each of those please.

It was a hypothetical.

osarusan wrote: »

indeed, if somebody from the Iona institute went into a bakery run by a homosexual and asked them to make a cake saying 'vote no to gay marriage', what would the response be on here?

Here? On AH? Well, in that hypothetical people would be outraged as it's asking people to deny others basic rights as a couple. Others would say "freedom of speech".

Asking the bakery to promote voting yes is something positive; it's not denying anyone's rights nor is it hurting anyone.

I Heart Internet · 08-07-2014 1:34pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I wonder if there would be such an out cry if somebody went into a bakery owned by a gay person and asked for a cake with a message asking people not to support gay marriage and was told that the the bakery wouldn't do it.

This really is a direct comparrison (unlike some of the scenarios above).

Obviously, I would have zero issue with the bakery declining this piece of work.

dxhound2005 · 08-07-2014 1:34pm

Cake shops are a minefield when it comes to messages on cakes.

http://www.snopes.com/food/prepare/caketalk.asp

old hippy · 08-07-2014 1:34pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I wonder if there would be such an out cry if somebody went into a bakery owned by a gay person and asked for a cake with a message asking people not to support gay marriage and was told that the the bakery wouldn't do it.

See my answer above

Seedy Arling · 08-07-2014 1:35pm

Let them eat cake...

padd b1975 · 08-07-2014 1:35pm

These gays must have way too much time on their hands to be whinging about a bloody cake.

Gateau(ver) it!!

I Heart Internet · 08-07-2014 1:35pm

old hippy wrote: »

Asking the bakery to promote voting yes is something positive; it's not denying anyone's rights nor is it hurting anyone.

Asking is fine. Threatening legal action if they decline is denying their right to say "No thanks".

Medusa22 · 08-07-2014 1:37pm

padd b1975 wrote: »

These gays must have way too much time on their hands to be whinging about a bloody cake.

Gateau(ver) it!!

It is only an issue for a person if someone else makes a big deal out of it and refuses to make the cake. You are right that it is no big deal, it's just a cake, so why didn't they just make it? No fuss at all.

Annasopra · 08-07-2014 1:38pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

The business should have the right to refuse to make any order that it wanted. BUT NOT because the customer happens to be gay.

An alternative example might be a muslim person wanting to have a cake decorated in a way that extolled the virtue of covering up women from head to toe.

A bakery should have the right to refuse it, but NOT becasue the client is muslim.

Not really answering the question I asked

dxhound2005 · 08-07-2014 1:39pm

Medusa22 wrote: »

It is only an issue for a person if someone else makes a big deal out of it and refuses to make the cake. You are right that it is no big deal, it's just a cake, so why didn't they just make it? No fuss at all.

They could have gone to dozens of other cake shops but they had to pick the one which is named after a tribe in the Bible. Looking for confrontation and now compensation.

FTA69 · 08-07-2014 1:41pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Homophobia would be refusing to do business with homosexual people because they are homosexual. Refusing to do a particular business transaction with a homosexual person because that person wanted a political slogan on a cake is not homophobia.

The bakery is in step in it's political stance with the NI parliament which refused to enact SSM legislation three times.

You are codding yourself if you think there's no homophobia at play here. Why else would they be opposed to marriage equality to begin with only for the fact they're religious nuts?

Also I'm not arguing the shop isn't entitled to refuse to print gay marriage slogans; I'm just saying it's unfortunate that their religion has instilled homophobic beliefs into them.

HazDanz · 08-07-2014 1:42pm

It's clearly a loaded cake purchase looking for the reaction they got and then getting the publicity they craved.

Scum in my eyes.

08-07-2014 1:42pm

old hippy wrote: »

It was a hypothetical.

Here? On AH? Well, in that hypothetical people would be outraged as it's asking people to deny others basic rights as a couple. Others would say "freedom of speech".

Asking the bakery to promote voting yes is something positive; it's not denying anyone's rights nor is it hurting anyone.

There really is no difference between the too. This entire thing stinks of a pressure group deliberately targeting a business for their beliefs. If a gay bakery refuses to bake an anti-gay marriage cake then is that not denying the rights of the anti group? Surely they have the right to express their opinion, if if we don't agree with it

Karl Stein · 08-07-2014 1:43pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The bakery is in step in it's political stance with the NI parliament which refused to enact SSM legislation three times.

I think it should be noted that it was a Sinn Fein motion to have marriage equality laws enacted that was defeated.

This is the third attempt to persuade members of the regional assembly to back same sex marriage in Northern Ireland. A year ago, they rejected a similar motion by 53 votes to 42.

theguardian.com

No prizes for guessing which side of the house was against equality legislation.

I Heart Internet · 08-07-2014 1:44pm

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Not really answering the question I asked

Sorry, your question was:

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

So if they ordered a cake saying congratulations on your Civil Partnership and it was refused?

The way it's phrased didn't lend itself to a yes/no answer...hence my text.

In short, I would support (in principle) if they declined to make a Civil Partnership cake becasue they did not agree with civil partnerships.

Dyr · 08-07-2014 1:46pm

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

It is, e.g. Jeremiah 7:18

Quote:
The children gather wood, the fathers kindle fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven.

So the bible says its okay to make cakes for queens then?

Your move religious nordies

dxhound2005 · 08-07-2014 1:47pm

FTA69 wrote: »

You are codding yourself if you think there's no homophobia at play here. Why else would they be opposed to marriage equality to begin with only for the fact they're religious nuts?

Also I'm not arguing the shop isn't entitled to refuse to print gay marriage slogans; I'm just saying it's unfortunate that their religion has instilled homophobic beliefs into them.

Being in favour of what has always been marriage, one man one woman does not make a person homophobic. Or put another way being against extending it to SSM is not homophobic. It is what was voted on in the NI parliament with the majority being against SSM. It is a political issue with views on both sides.

padd b1975 · 08-07-2014 1:50pm

Medusa22 wrote: »

It is only an issue for a person if someone else makes a big deal out of it and refuses to make the cake. You are right that it is no big deal, it's just a cake, so why didn't they just make it? No fuss at all.

Why couldn't the gays accept that the cake wasn't going to be made how they wanted by that particular business?

Find another bakery, no fuss at all.

yoke · 08-07-2014 1:51pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

They could have gone to dozens of other cake shops but they had to pick the one which is named after a tribe in the Bible. Looking for confrontation and now compensation.

If the bakery is dumb enough to do something like this that leaves them open to being forced to pay out compensation, then they deserve to be called up on it and to pay out compensation.

kunst nugget · 08-07-2014 1:53pm

yoke wrote: »

So are they saying that they couldn't find a single baker employed by the bakery who would agree to make the cake, because all the bakers employed by them refused to do so based on their own individual religious beliefs?

If I go into a kosher bakery and asked them to bake a pork pie and they refuse, do I say they've discriminated against me because I'm gentile. Does the fact that they may have non-Jewish people working in the bakery alter the fact that it is a kosher bakery? No, it doesn't.

yoke wrote: »

ie. they were unable to bake the specified cake due to lack of resources?

Nothing to do with resources. It's to do with ethos.

yoke wrote: »

To me it appears more like the management of the bakery did not agree with the message on the cake, and hence refused to create it.

That is it. I don't think it would have matter if the person ordered it was gay, straight, black or Chinese, they still would have refused to make the cake.

yoke wrote: »

It's a dangerous road to go down - pretty soon you'll have leaflet companies deciding what you can and can't print on leaflets, TV companies deciding what political views you can express on air, etc.

This already happens. Leaflet companies aren't state run institutions and they can and will refuse orders for leaflets if they want. Do I think that's right or wrong? Depends on the circumstances. RTÉ would have pretty strict editorial control over what is broadcast.

old hippy · 08-07-2014 1:54pm

padd b1975 wrote: »

These gays must have way too much time on their hands to be whinging about a bloody cake.

Gateau(ver) it!!

ah, paddy cake, paddy cake; baker's man

Kermit.de.frog · 08-07-2014 1:55pm

FTA69 wrote: »

Why else would they be opposed to marriage equality to begin with only for the fact they're religious nuts?

So everyone opposed to same sex marriage is a "religious nut"?

old hippy · 08-07-2014 1:56pm

padd b1975 wrote: »

Why couldn't the gays accept that the cake wasn't going to be made how they wanted by that particular business?

Find another bakery, no fuss at all.

Perhaps we should have segregated bakeries? One for heterosexuals and one for "the gays"?

old hippy · 08-07-2014 1:57pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

So everyone opposed to same sex marriage is a "religious nut"?

Usually. Not always.

dxhound2005 · 08-07-2014 1:57pm

yoke wrote: »

If the bakery is dumb enough to do something like this that leaves them open to being forced to pay out compensation, then they deserve to be called up on it and to pay out compensation.

And if a parliament votes against what the cake shop is against should they be subject to legal action as well.

mackerski · 08-07-2014 1:58pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Asking is fine. Threatening legal action if they decline is denying their right to say "No thanks".

No, in Ireland you have to first be refused and then comes a few rounds of "go on, go on, go on!".

jimgoose · 08-07-2014 1:59pm

padd b1975 wrote: »

Why couldn't the gays accept that the cake wasn't going to be made how they wanted by that particular business?...

I heard these particular The Gays were normal-looking, well-adjusted intelligent people (as opposed to the hordes of usual The Gays mincing around the place with leotards and peacock feathers inserted in unauthorised locations) and didn't expect to run into this sort of problem in a Jaysis bakery any more than I'd expect to start World War III by asking a Jamaican baker for a Black Forest Gateaux. Make of that what you will.

kalmanon2 · 08-07-2014 1:59pm

I would wonder how easy they get out of it, because most shops have a right to refuse service, but at the same time, they had already accepted payment (all reports say a refund was given).

sin_city · 08-07-2014 2:00pm

My brother is gay and I support the bakery....

They have the right not to make the cake just as we all have the right not to buy from them...It's pretty simple.

dxhound2005 · 08-07-2014 2:01pm

jimgoose wrote: »

I heard these particular The Gays were normal-looking, well-adjusted intelligent people (as opposed to the hordes of usual The Gays mincing around the place with leotards and peacock feathers inserted in unauthorised locations) and didn't expect to run into this sort of problem in a Jaysis bakery any more than I'd expect to start World War III by asking a Jamaican baker for a Black Forest Gateaux. Make of that what you will.

These particular gays wanted Queer Space on their cake. What do you make of that?

kunst nugget · 08-07-2014 2:01pm

sin_city wrote: »

They have the right not to make the cake just as we all have the right not to buy from them...It's pretty simple.

Exactly how I'd feel about it.

caustic 1 · 08-07-2014 2:03pm

Is there only one cake shop in the north?

kunst nugget · 08-07-2014 2:03pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

These particular gays wanted Queer Space on their cake. What do you make of that?

That they wanted Queer Space on the cake?

Is this a riddle?

Dyr · 08-07-2014 2:03pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

So everyone opposed to same sex marriage is a "religious nut"?

if they say that they're opposed to it on the basis of what the bible says then yes, they sure are.

jimgoose · 08-07-2014 2:03pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

These particular gays wanted Queer Space on their cake. What do you make of that?

Doesn't bother me at all. Everyone needs space, s'physics, innit?

CrazyRabbit · 08-07-2014 2:03pm

The bakery were not being asked to support gay marriage. They were employed to make a cake...nothing more. Their involvement in making the cake would almost certainly never have become public knowledge had they just made it.

Saying that, the bakery will win the case. Otherwise people will just start placing orders with other religious run companies for services or goods which are not in line with that religion, get refused and then claim discrimination. It'll become a money-making racket.

FTA69 · 08-07-2014 2:04pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Being in favour of what has always been marriage, one man one woman does not make a person homophobic. Or put another way being against extending it to SSM is not homophobic.

It does though. When you think that people in a secular state should be prevented from accessing partnership due to the fact that they're gay then that's homophobic. Why else would you feel that gay people aren't entitled to the same rights are the rest of us?

It is what was voted on in the NI parliament with the majority being against SSM. It is a political issue with views on both sides.

Yeah, where the majority voting against it were members of parties with long-standing homophobic positions.

Karl Stein · 08-07-2014 2:05pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Being in favour of what has always been marriage...

As was said those 'Appeal to tradition' logical fallacies were used to prevent inter-racial marriage.

Also people can still be in favour of what marriage has 'always been' and not be against marriage equality, can they not?

kalmanon2 · 08-07-2014 2:05pm

crazy rabbit - ordinarily if you say "sorry, try another bakery" initially yes they would win, right to refuse service.

but the case is that if they had already taken the money, they had entered a contract to make the cake...

08-07-2014 2:05pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

The business should have the right to refuse to make any order that it wanted. BUT NOT because the customer happens to be gay.

An alternative example might be a Muslim person wanting to have a cake decorated in a way that extolled the virtue of covering up women from head to toe.

A bakery should have the right to refuse it, but NOT because the client is Muslim.

I agree with this, but it has often been the case that many Muslim traders will overcome their reticence to provide a service despite it going against their religious beliefs ('Indian' restaurants that serve alcohol being a typical example), "business is business" at the end of the day. Having said that, businesses shouldn't be criticised for declining business, someone else will gain instead.
It's their loss at the end of the day!

FTA69 · 08-07-2014 2:05pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

So everyone opposed to same sex marriage is a "religious nut"?

In this context they are.

floggg · 08-07-2014 2:13pm

P_1 wrote: »

Ok fair enough lets look at it from another angle. If somebody asked you to bake a cake for an arranged marriage would you feel comfortable in doing so?

That is different. My objection, if I had any, would not be because of minority status or any of the other protected grounds.

It would be based on concerns about whether both parties were consenting. If either party was coerced, then it would likely be illegal and against that persons own interests. So I would object out of concern for the individual, not animus.

If however both parties freely wanted to enter an arranged marriage I would wish them luck, but tell them I'm **** at baking and suggest they ask my bf. he's much better at that sort of thing.

dxhound2005 · 08-07-2014 2:15pm

FTA69 wrote: »

dxhound2005 wrote: »

It does though. When you think that people in a secular state should be prevented from accessing partnership due to the fact that they're gay then that's homophobic. Why else would you feel that gay people aren't entitled to the same rights are the rest of us?

Yeah, where the majority voting against it were members of parties with long-standing homophobic positions.

What do you mean by partnership? No couple is forbidden from living together and if they want to formalise it from having a civil partnership. SSM is only available in a few places worldwide and there is much political debate about it. Branding everyone who thinks that what has held for hundreds of years, marriage being one man one woman should be retained, as homophic just ignores the reality of the political debate.

Gay Cake Controversy!

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