Can we kill Irish once and for all

FunLover18 · 07-07-2014 12:18PM

mick kk wrote: »

I don't know if this has been said already but taking the exam is not mandatory. You don't have to turn up for the exam. If you don't do it, then it simply doesn't appear on your results....what should change is the requirement for many third level courses to have a D in Irish.

The exam may not be mandatory but we have to sit through hours of Irish classes which could be spent learning another subject.

auldgranny wrote: »

Some French. Not fluent in it? After CHOOSING to study it?

I have some Irish … after spending 14 years HAVING to study it.

auldgranny wrote: »

Well you chose to study French, not fluent
Were forced to study Irish, not fluent

Your reason to make Irish optional again?

He had the choice. He has no one to blame for his lack of fluency in French but himself (and possibly a poor teacher)

auldgranny wrote: »

Read back on my posts. I agree with it being optional

What? But … what … how?

Mcdonough wrote: »

I don't understand all the Irish hate.

After you've allowed every unique aspect of Irish culture to be forgotten, what's left on this rock?

May as well just turn the whole isle into a parking lot. Maybe stop education, teach kids how to be fry cooks and wage slaves for international corporations instead.

Woah, hold up there a second!! If we make Irish optional for two years of fourteen year education cycle Ireland becomes a grey parking lot that lacks any culture or national identity!?!? That's serious, why didn't someone mention this argument before?

Mcdonough wrote: »

But that isn't what half the people here seem to be arguing.. they seem to think that the official language of Ireland isn't even worth knowing,

So what!? Let them!! You think otherwise and so do plenty of others. Personally I don't think our national sport is watching or playing I suppose I may as well just become a parking attendant.

Mcdonough wrote: »

and after 8 years, they still couldn't give enough ****es to learn it proper.

Again, so what? Compulsory Irish hasn't altered this attitude in over 70 years, if anything it only increases it.

Mcdonough wrote: »

I think tells us just how highly they think of Ireland. And if they literally hate Irish culture, why should we take their opinion seriously?

No, it tells us how how highly they think of a language which is spoken on a regular basis by less than 30% of the population.

Mcdonough wrote: »

It's not a hysteria when only a few hundred thousand are left speaking it, and the younger generations seem to take some weird pride in their Irish illiteracy... and, again, the fact that people refuse to learn it even when it's part of their basic schooling.

The Irish language will die if we allow students the option of not studying it for Irish … definitely NOT hysteria

Mcdonough wrote: »

I dont know how you fail to see the problem. If they can't learn it in 12, make it 14, then 16, etc. Its the national language, there's no excuse not to know it, especially if you're a citizen there.

Jesus, let's make it compulsory in Universities, no that's not enough, compulsory in the work place … FÚCK IT, LETS MAKE ENGLISH ILLEGAL!!!

AngryHippie wrote: »

Irish History - We do.
Irish dancing - pure whataboutery there pal. Not even worth a response.

Because Irish speakers never (incorrectly) use whataboutery re Engish and Maths.

Irish history is optional, it's not a whataboutery at all. It's a genuine question, why is the language deemed more important than our history?

RandomName2 · 07-07-2014 12:41PM

bb1234567 wrote: »

I struggled so much with maths this year, yet I needed a pass for my course( and this course involves no maths whatsoever).I do very well in all my subjects apart from maths. Exact same situation as you, but with different subjects. If irish shouldnt be compulsory then neither should maths or english

I think you have a point about maths (although as FunLover18 says, apparently that isn't actually the case). LC maths focus on differentiation, geometry, algebra, etc. - specialised stuff. The general day-to-day maths that everyone needs is covered in primary school, and to a lesser extent in the JC. Unless there's a specific need for LC maths.. then why?

But English... you use English for everything. Sure, you may say "why do I need to know Shakespeare or Heaney" but knowing the work of specific writers isn't the point of LC English - it's being able to understand them and write coherently. That's an absolutely essential skill. Hell, a number of the people in this thread seem to be finding it difficult to form rational arguments - highlighting the necessity of English, if anything.

the_monkey · 07-07-2014 12:42PM

shane7218 wrote: »

Like I struggled with Irish in school and barely passed it, yet I did great in everything else and almost missed out on getting into a computer science course. How can we justify something like Irish determining if someone is good enough to study an IT related course or any for that matter.

Yep likewise, I went to DCU and we got really good labs, other courses (science ones) got ****ty labs but the students doing Irish for some reason also got access to the CA labs ... :S ..

Once I left my place for a second and some girl sat in my place and started to check my email - I asked what are you doing - she thought it was free and wanted to check her mail

I told her it was my account, she apologized and then went to log out

Needless to say she was from the Irish course - Fiohreachtala or whatever the f*ck its called ..

FunLover18 · 07-07-2014 12:51PM

bb1234567 wrote: »

I struggled so much with maths this year, yet I needed a pass for my course( and this course involves no maths whatsoever).I do very well in all my subjects apart from maths. Exact same situation as you, but with different subjects. If irish shouldnt be compulsory then neither should maths or english

This has been covered, Irish is the ONLY subject which the state says students MUST study for Leaving Cert

RandomName2 · 07-07-2014 01:00PM

the_monkey wrote: »

Yep likewise, I went to DCU and we got really good labs, other courses (science ones) got ****ty labs but the students doing Irish for some reason also got access to the CA labs ... :S ..

Once I left my place for a second and some girl sat in my place and started to check my email - I asked what are you doing - she thought it was free and wanted to check her mail

I told her it was my account, she apologized and then went to log out

Needless to say she was from the Irish course - Fiohreachtala or whatever the f*ck its called ..

Doing subjects through Irish gives you more points in the leaving cert.

Living in an "Irish area" leaves you open to grants.

Going to university as an Irish speaker leaves you liable to free accommodation and other bonuses.

No wonder the "mandatory Irish for leaving cert" lot in this thread sound like ... bigots.

Reekwind · 07-07-2014 01:12PM

the_monkey wrote: »

Yep likewise, I went to DCU and we got really good labs, other courses (science ones) got ****ty labs but the students doing Irish for some reason also got access to the CA labs ... :S ..

Once I left my place for a second and some girl sat in my place and started to check my email - I asked what are you doing - she thought it was free and wanted to check her mail

I told her it was my account, she apologized and then went to log out

Needless to say she was from the Irish course - Fiohreachtala or whatever the f*ck its called ..

"Needless to say"? Because Irish speakers are somehow less intelligent than you fancy English-speaking computer folks?

Nice to see that Irish hasn't lost the stigma of being backwards and obsolete. That's proven to be one of the more lasting legacies of English rule.

FunLover18 wrote:

This has been covered, Irish is the ONLY subject which the state says students MUST study for Leaving Cert

Which is an entirely academic distinction (no pun intended). Irish is required by separate preservation law but for the vast majority of students English and Maths are equally mandatory. The fact that this requirement is not enshrined in law is absolutely irrelevant for 99% of the school population.

RandomName2 · 07-07-2014 01:19PM

Reekwind wrote: »

"Needless to say"? Because Irish speakers are somehow less intelligent than you fancy English-speaking computer folks?

Nice to see that Irish hasn't lost the stigma of being backwards and obsolete. That's proven to be one of the more lasting legacies of English rule.

The point was that non-Irish speakers are somehow deemed to be second class. Universities in Ireland typically offer scholarships to people who speak Irish, simply because they speak Irish.

So I don't really understand this chip on your shoulder about imaginary stigmas.

FunLover18 · 07-07-2014 01:22PM

Reekwind wrote: »

Which is an entirely academic distinction (no pun intended). Irish is required by separate preservation law but for the vast majority of students English and Maths are equally mandatory. The fact that this requirement is not enshrined in law is absolutely irrelevant for 99% of the school population.

I understand that but surely that makes it a separate issue. As it stands, schools make English and Maths mandatory for their students. The state makes Irish mandatory. If the state was to remove the obligation for mandatory Irish and schools continued to make it so then the situation would be comparable with English and Maths. I don't know maybe schools would still make it mandatory for their students, but at the moment (as far as I can see) they do so because the state requires it.

shane7218 · 07-07-2014 01:30PM

That's a very good point raised by some posters here. Why are native Irish speakers deemed worthy of extra points for everything if they do it in Irish.

curlzy · 07-07-2014 01:30PM

Personally I f*cking hate Irish and always have. Why? Because it was shoved down my throat for an hour a day, learning from books and by repetition. I would like to like Irish but I had such a hard time with it and made to feel stupid for not getting it that as soon as I try it, it puts a million years on me. I think first and foremost they need to change the way they teach it and stop with the books but do it through speaking the actual language. I also think it should be voluntary not mandatory. Nothing gets my back up quicker than being told I HAVE to do something. Make it voluntary and teach it in a better way and I'd say you would hear a lot more Irish when you're out and about.

* Oh and all snobby bull**** that goes with being an Irish speaker, get rid of that and maybe there wouldn't be a stigma around speaking Irish, the stigma being that Irish speakers = w*nkers.

Reekwind · 07-07-2014 01:48PM

RandomName2 wrote: »

The point was that non-Irish speakers are somehow deemed to be second class. Universities in Ireland typically offer scholarships to people who speak Irish, simply because they speak Irish.

Let's be blunt here: anyone who believes that efforts to encourage the learning of Irish mean that "non-Irish speakers" (ie 90% of the population) have been reduced to 'second class citizens' is not thinking logically. Or at all.

FunLover18 wrote:

I understand that but surely that makes it a separate issue. As it stands, schools make English and Maths mandatory for their students. The state makes Irish mandatory. If the state was to remove the obligation for mandatory Irish and schools continued to make it so then the situation would be comparable with English and Maths. I don't know maybe schools would still make it mandatory for their students, but at the moment (as far as I can see) they do so because the state requires it.

That's probably overstating it (in that teachers are one of the bastions of Irish learning) but my point is that arguing whether it is, today, more or less "compulsory" than Maths and English is, from a student's perspective, just hair-splitting.

So you're probably right in that they are separate issues but then let's not conflate them whenever someone points out that other subjects are also mandatory.

shane7218 wrote:

Why are native Irish speakers deemed worthy of extra points for everything if they do it in Irish.

I didn't know that there was any mystery about it. Irish gives you extra points because the State wants to encourage the use of the language. Providing incentives to study a subject (as in Maths) is hardly unheard of or particularly mysterious.

curlzy wrote:

I also think it should be voluntary not mandatory. Nothing gets my back up quicker than being told I HAVE to do something

You must have hated school full stop. Having to learn English and Maths? Snobby bull****! Wearing a uniform? Fascists!

RandomName2 · 07-07-2014 02:01PM

Reekwind wrote: »

Let's be blunt here: anyone who believes that efforts to encourage the learning of Irish mean that "non-Irish speakers" (ie 90% [97%] of the population) have been reduced to 'second class citizens' is not thinking logically. Or at all.

How about this: that people with auburn, red or ginger hair get preferential treatment in terms of college places? I mean, that sort of hair colouring is quintessentially Irish, is it not? However, we have relatively very few people with this hair type: so we should do what we can to encourage them to stay in Ireland, for others with such colouring to come here, and to at least have disincentives for them to dye their hair to another colour. The best way to do that is with hard cash, and also skewing the educational system in their favour. Also businesses with a policy of only hiring red-heads should be given grants. Sounds fair, progressive and 100% logical if you ask me.

shane7218 · 07-07-2014 02:33PM

RandomName2 wrote: »

How about this: that people with auburn, red or ginger hair get preferential treatment in terms of college places? I mean, that sort of hair colouring is quintessentially Irish, is it not? However, we have relatively very few people with this hair type: so we should do what we can to encourage them to stay in Ireland, for others with such colouring to come here, and to at least have disincentives for them to dye their hair to another colour. The best way to do that is with hard cash, and also skewing the educational system in their favour. Also businesses with a policy of only hiring red-heads should be given grants. Sounds fair, progressive and 100% logical if you ask me.

These people don't seem to care about logic. Its all patriotic emotion as far as I can see because there is NO reason to keep it compulsory and a valid one has yet to be provided

mickydoomsux · 07-07-2014 02:35PM

shane7218 wrote: »

These people don't seem to care about logic. Its all patriotic emotion as far as I can see because there is NO reason to keep it compulsory and a valid one has yet to be provided

"Ummmmmm.......... culture or heritage or something"

the_monkey · 07-07-2014 02:43PM

Reekwind wrote: »

"Needless to say"? Because Irish speakers are somehow less intelligent than you fancy English-speaking computer folks?

Nice to see that Irish hasn't lost the stigma of being backwards and obsolete. That's proven to be one of the more lasting legacies of English rule.

Which is an entirely academic distinction (no pun intended). Irish is required by separate preservation law but for the vast majority of students English and Maths are equally mandatory. The fact that this requirement is not enshrined in law is absolutely irrelevant for 99% of the school population.

No no no ...

point is why would an Irish course get preferene to high end machines and engineering/physics didn't ?

This girl probably was very smart - but a linguist - these machines were wasted on her.

And ok I shouldn't have said "Whatever the f*ck it's called"
cheap dig fair enough.

Irish should be mandatory, it would actually be good for the language , the students choosing it would have an interest and the standard would raise,
they wouldn't have dopes like me in the class disrupting things.

Reekwind · 07-07-2014 03:36PM

RandomName2 wrote: »

How about this: that people with auburn, red or ginger hair get preferential treatment in terms of college places? I mean, that sort of hair colouring is quintessentially Irish, is it not? However, we have relatively very few people with this hair type: so we should do what we can to encourage them to stay in Ireland, for others with such colouring to come here, and to at least have disincentives for them to dye their hair to another colour. The best way to do that is with hard cash, and also skewing the educational system in their favour. Also businesses with a policy of only hiring red-heads should be given grants. Sounds fair, progressive and 100% logical if you ask me.

While we're asking you for nonsensical hypotheticals, don't you also feel that everyone who isn't red-headed is being horrible oppressed and reduced to the status of second class citizens by these government policies? I mean, it's practically apartheid!

the_monkey wrote:

point is why would an Irish course get preferene to high end machines and engineering/physics didn't ?

Probably because both the latter have access to their own extensive computer labs. And I could of course be wrong but, IIRC, at DCU linguistics has always sat within computing (rather than business). So I certainly don't think it's some bizarre incentive - study Irish and we'll let you hang out with the CA peeps

shane7218 wrote:

These people don't seem to care about logic. Its all patriotic emotion as far as I can see because there is NO reason to keep it compulsory and a valid one has yet to be provided

There are none so blind, etc, etc. There are plenty of reasons to keep Irish mandatory (a few of which have no doubt been aired in this thread) and plenty to reduce its status. That's fine, people are free to make up their own minds. To claim however that all the 'logic' (ie rationale) lies on one side of the argument is to do nothing more than wallow in wilful ignorance.

partyguinness · 07-07-2014 04:03PM

the_monkey wrote: »

Yep likewise, I went to DCU and we got really good labs, other courses (science ones) got ****ty labs but the students doing Irish for some reason also got access to the CA labs ... :S ..

Once I left my place for a second and some girl sat in my place and started to check my email - I asked what are you doing - she thought it was free and wanted to check her mail

I told her it was my account, she apologized and then went to log out

Needless to say she was from the Irish course - Fiohreachtala or whatever the f*ck its called ..

That post is just petty, pointless and juvenile....I bet you all had a good bitch about how unfair the world can be...I am just gald I don't have your problems. Must be **** in your world.

She offered you an explantion and apologised...so what's the problem and the over use of the confused emoticons...confused much?

partyguinness · 07-07-2014 04:13PM

OP....

Why don't you take all this energy and pent up anger toward LC compulsory Irish and launch a national campaign to make Irish optional?

Or contact the Dept of Education and ask why Irish is compulsory. What does your local TD think about it?

Or..are you just another keyboard warrior?:rolleyes:

bb1234567 · 07-07-2014 05:37PM

It makes me sad to see people so against their national language

If only it was taught better, people would like it so much more. I say this as a person who hates languages in general..I went to an all irish primary school and the gealtacht a few times so Im fairly fluent and it helped me appreciate irish much more. Its actually a really beautiful language

RandomName2 · 07-07-2014 06:38PM

Reekwind wrote: »

While we're asking you for nonsensical hypotheticals, don't you also feel that everyone who isn't red-headed is being horrible oppressed and reduced to the status of second class citizens by these government policies? I mean, it's practically apartheid!

Well yeah... it would be blatant discrimination and somewhat illegal. I don't have anything against redheads or anything, but I'd be slightly miffed if I found out that native redheads got a 10% bonus in exams just because of idea that some types of discrimination are okay, or that a company was actually given a grant for that sort of behaviour.

I do think that the Gaelteachts are no bad idea tbh... but the economic incentives are... mmm... really, not great. At least some (like the house building grant in Gaelteacht areas only for native Irish speakers) have been thankfully cut back.

However, the thread is really about mandatory Irish for LC, which there isn't any particularly strong argument to support. Perhaps that's why there's so much vitriol on the part of those who support mandatory Irish... I mean, in lieu of actual arguments.

shane7218 · 07-07-2014 07:02PM

partyguinness wrote: »

OP....

Why don't you take all this energy and pent up anger toward LC compulsory Irish and launch a national campaign to make Irish optional?

Or contact the Dept of Education and ask why Irish is compulsory. What does your local TD think about it?

Or..are you just another keyboard warrior?:rolleyes:

Is it not ok to have a discussion on this forum without launching a national campaign?

Insect Overlord · 07-07-2014 07:18PM

shane7218 wrote: »

Is it not ok to have a discussion on this forum without launching a national campaign?

I think it's funny that you have 86 out of 563 posts in this threads, and about 80 of them just repeat what you said in the OP over and over again. It's not really a discussion. More like that .gif of the guy smashing himself into his keyboard. This little guy. http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/257866/keyboard-smash-o.gif

shane7218 · 07-07-2014 07:21PM

An File wrote: »

I think it's funny that you have 86 out of 563 posts in this threads, and about 80 of them just repeat what you said in the OP over and over again. It's not really a discussion. More like that .gif of the guy smashing himself into his keyboard. This little guy. http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/257866/keyboard-smash-o.gif

Well you tend to repeat yourself when your trying to show people that their is no logic in keeping Irish compulsory when their isn't any reason to give except common sense.

RandomName2 · 07-07-2014 07:40PM

shane7218 wrote: »

Well you tend to repeat yourself when your trying to show people that their is no logic in keeping Irish compulsory when their isn't any reason to give except common sense.

I suppose it is a stronger argument though to suggest that someone making 16.7% of posts in a thread is monologing, than one which suggests that a language that is used in 3% of homes is the primary language of the state.

the_monkey wrote: »

Irish should be mandatory

typo?

Iwasfrozen · 07-07-2014 07:50PM

Irish should be compulsory because of history and culture and ... stuff.

Yes history is covered in history and culture is covered in art but Irsh should still be compulsory because ... it's important ... for emh to learn a language improves cognitive abilities.

Yes German and French are also languages and thus improve cognitive abilities with the added benefit of actually being useful for purposes other than being glorified pig latin but they don't teach students about their history and culture.

Yes history is covered in history and culture is covered in art but Irsh should still be compulsory because it's important to learn a language to improve cognitive abilities...

English and Maths are compulsory too you know!!!!!

Did I get it all?

RandomName2 · 07-07-2014 07:54PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Irish should be compulsory because of history and culture and ... stuff.

Yes history is covered in history and culture is covered in art but Irsh should still be compulsory because ... it's important ... for emh to learn a language improves cognitive abilities.

Yes German and French are also languages and thus improve cognitive abilities with the added benefit of actually being useful for purposes other than being glorified pig latin but they don't teach students about their history and culture.

Yes history is covered in history and culture is covered in art but Irsh should still be compulsory because it's important to learn a language to improve cognitive abilities...

English and Maths are compulsory too you know!!!!!

Did I get it all?

Also:

It will die out if it's not mandatory for the LC

It's unpatriotic not to learn it for the LC.

~

I think that's the lot

shane7218 · 07-07-2014 08:02PM

RandomName2 wrote: »

Also:

It will die out if it's not mandatory for the LC

It's unpatriotic not to learn it for the LC.

~

I think that's the lot

Don't forget the "jackass from Texas" that said that the language is the "grace of god"

Mcdonough · 07-07-2014 09:17PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Irish should be compulsory because of history and culture and ... stuff.

Yes history is covered in history and culture is covered in art but Irsh should still be compulsory because ... it's important ... for emh to learn a language improves cognitive abilities.

Yes German and French are also languages and thus improve cognitive abilities with the added benefit of actually being useful for purposes other than being glorified pig latin but they don't teach students about their history and culture.

Yes history is covered in history and culture is covered in art but Irsh should still be compulsory because it's important to learn a language to improve cognitive abilities...

English and Maths are compulsory too you know!!!!!

Did I get it all?

Let me get this straight,

1. The people who want to get rid of the Irish language hate Irish culture and history to such a great extent, that the very idea of preserving such things is a hilarious propsal to them.

2. For some reason, the fact that 97% of Irish can't even speak Irish isn't a cause for concern, and it's hysterical to think it might die out.

3. But simultaneously, we should just let it die out.

4. Actually liking your country and culture makes you a rightwing racist Nazi Hitler terrorist, and being a cool progressive means abandoning your cultural heritage in favor of England's cultural heritage.

5. It's great that the French speak French in France, and the Spanish speak Spanish in Spain, but we're not multicultural enough until we stop the Irish from speaking Irish in Ireland.

shruikan2553 · 07-07-2014 09:20PM

Mcdonough wrote: »

Let me get this straight,

1. The people who want to get rid of the Irish language hate Irish culture and history to such a great extent, that the very idea of preserving such things is a hilarious propsal to them.

2. For some reason, the fact that 97% of Irish can't even speak Irish isn't a cause for concern, and it's hysterical to think it might die out.

3. But simultaneously, we should just let it die out.

4. Actually liking your country and culture makes you a rightwing racist Nazi Hitler terrorist, and being a cool progressive means abandoning your cultural heritage in favor of England's cultural heritage.

5. It's great that the French speak French in France, and the Spanish speak Spanish in Spain, but we're not multicultural enough until we stop the Irish from speaking Irish in Ireland.

Theres more to Irish culture than the language. Irish history isnt compulsory so you might have missed that.

mickydoomsux · 07-07-2014 09:24PM

Mcdonough wrote: »

5. It's great that the French speak French in France, and the Spanish speak Spanish in Spain, but we're not multicultural enough until we stop the Irish from speaking Irish in Ireland.

French and Spanish are spoken in numerous countries as a first language.

Irish is a spoken as a second language by maybe a few thousand people in Ireland. Let's keep pouring millions into it, keep it compulsory in schools and keep it an entry requirement for jobs and college courses that will never use it. Ever.

Can we kill Irish once and for all

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