Can we kill Irish once and for all

looking_around · 06-07-2014 04:11PM

GaelMise wrote: »

Kids who go to a Gaelscoil have no trouble learning Irish, perhaps how you go about something has an impact?

You dont spend 14 years learning Irish, you barely spend 1300 hours learning Irish in an English medium school which is no where near enough to become fluent in a language.

Anything to back that up? You may get a better mark, but the Irish exam is much more substantial than the French or German exam and is pitched at a higher level.

Never got this argument, Irish is not useless. The only thing that makes it 'useless' to you is your inablilty to speak it, which is a bit like saying that cars are useless just because you don't know how to drive.
If you can speak it, you can use it.

It's MORE than enough when learning German/French.

And other countries have no bother with it when learning foreign languages.(check out Portugal/France/Germany ..they learn 2-3 languages in school-not including their national language., and are fluent in 1-2 of them, the other 2-3, would be similar to how fluent we are in german/french.)

Like I said, the reason people don't learn it well, is that it's NOT taught like a foreign language. (this also explains why gaelscoils have no bother with it. It is not a foreign language to them.)

and yes it is useless in terms of job possibilities.
I can't speak Chinese, but if I could there would be more career aspects for me,
Same for German/French etc. Especially if considering moving abroad.

The areas that speak Irish are tiny in comparison to the whole country, Job wise... it's not going to be as useful to the majority as learning a language that's actively spoken by millions.

Iwasfrozen · 06-07-2014 04:14PM

Gaelmise I think I speak for a lot of people on rhetorically optional side when I say I couldn't care less if Irish lives or dies so I don't know why you keep using the argument that Irish will die if it's made optional.

mickydoomsux · 06-07-2014 04:17PM

GaelMise wrote: »

You dont spend 14 years learning Irish, you barely spend 1300 hours learning Irish in an English medium school which is no where near enough to become fluent in a language.

It's an utter waste of valuable school time from minute one anyway.

GaelMise · 06-07-2014 04:23PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Gaelmise I think I speak for a lot of people on rhetorically optional side when I say I couldn't care less if Irish lives or dies so I don't know why you keep using the argument that Irish will die if it's made optional.

I am well aware that you don't care, but you are not everyone. The argument has been made on many ocasions that compulsion is bad for Irish and that making it optional would be good for it.
Even those like yourself who don't care is Irish is finally killed of trot out these arguments from time to time.
Rest assured, pointing out that these arguments are wrong is not ment to convince you and your ilk to support compulsory Irish.

GaelMise · 06-07-2014 04:32PM

RandomName2 wrote: »

Irish is useless because it is not a medium of communication which is used.

Its just blatent lies at this stage.
If thats the kind of BS you have to resort to then there's not much of a discussion to be had a mhic.

mickydoomsux · 06-07-2014 04:37PM

GaelMise wrote: »

Its just blatent lies at this stage.

Lies how?

Teaching kids a dead language that will be of little or no benefit to the vast, vast majority of them is idiotic and a complete waste of time.

GaelMise · 06-07-2014 04:39PM

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Lies how?

Teaching kids a dead language that will be of little or no benefit to the vast, vast majority of them is idiotic and a complete waste of time.

He said that Irish is not used as a means of communication, that it not true and he knows that, therefore, its a lie.
Hardily that complicated now is it?

Roquentin · 06-07-2014 04:40PM

I think that given the economic climate, people are emigrating and thus a foreign language such as german or spanish would be more beneficial.

Irish is like the appendix in that it has no use. It is purely gratuitous in having the study it. Im all for heritage, but studying local history or playing hurling would be as good.

looking_around · 06-07-2014 04:45PM

GaelMise wrote: »

He said that Irish is not used as a means of communication, that it not true and he knows that, therefore, its a lie.
Hardily that complicated now is it?

Did you read the rest of his post? He made a fantastic comparison for it.

Yes Irish cna be used, but everyone who speaks Irish also speaks English, you speak Irish because you want to, and that's ok. But that doesn't make it useful.

GaelMise · 06-07-2014 04:51PM

looking_around wrote: »

Did you read the rest of his post? He made a fantastic comparison for it.

Yes Irish cna be used, but everyone who speaks Irish also speaks English, you speak Irish because you want to, and that's ok. But that doesn't make it useful.

The desire to paint Irish as being useless seems to be leading some people down the road of being willfully ignorent of what the words useful/useless actually mean.

shruikan2553 · 06-07-2014 04:58PM

Looking at the numbers it is making no sense, even by ignoring the first 3 years of school we should be around level B1 at the end of primary school.

Can understand the main points of clear standard input on familiar matters regularly encountered in work, school, leisure, etc.
Can deal with most situations likely to arise while travelling in an area where the language is spoken.
Can produce simple connected text on topics that are familiar or of personal interest.
Can describe experiences and events, dreams, hopes and ambitions and briefly give reasons and explanations for opinions and plans.

What are they doing during Irish in primary school? They cant be teaching the language judging by the standard.

EDIT: Found the curriculum for primary school Irish...I think, its in Irish so I have no idea if it is actually the curriculum for Irish or just another curriculum done in Irish.
http://www.ncca.ie/uploadedfiles/Curriculum/Primary_Gaeilge_Curriculum.pdf

valderrama1 · 06-07-2014 04:59PM

looking_around wrote: »

Did you read the rest of his post? He made a fantastic comparison for it.

Yes Irish cna be used, but everyone who speaks Irish also speaks English, you speak Irish because you want to, and that's ok. But that doesn't make it useful.

No.... It is useful. It's useful because he can use Irish to speak to other Irish speakers. There are not a huge number of them but there are still about 30,000 people in this country that do use it as their language. You shouldn't be forced to learn it but it is useful to GaelMise.

You could apply the same logic to any country that use a language that is not "useful" because it's not spoken by a large number of people globally, or because it's not useful in business.

What "use" has Greek other than the fact that it's spoken by Greeks? Or Danish or Estonian or any other small country? You don't see them saying their language is useless. It reflects on us as a people. "Hi I'm Irish. I speak English".

looking_around · 06-07-2014 05:17PM

valderrama1 wrote: »

No.... It is useful. It's useful because he can use Irish to speak to other Irish speakers. There are not a huge number of them but there are still about 30,000 people in this country that do use it as their language. You shouldn't be forced to learn it but it is useful to GaelMise.

You could apply the same logic to any country that use a language that is not "useful" because it's not spoken by a large number of people globally, or because it's not useful in business.

No you can't, in many other countries, there's only the national language spoken.

EVERY person who speaks Irish, also speaks English. So although you can use it to speak to them, you also can use English.

What I mean here is. You can watch tv on your phone, but it's not very useful to watch on such a small screen, and you'd be better off using a TV.

You're comparing Irish, as if it's the only language spoken in this country, it isn't.

Anyone raised speaking Irish, will still speak Irish to others who can, removing it from being compulsory in schools won't change this. Anyone who lives in the gaelteach will still speak Irish, because they hear everyday. Making Irish optional won't change this.

Basically, the people who already speak it, will still speak it, those who don't will have that time that could be spent on learning another language, which like it or not, accept it or not, is more useful long term career wise than Irish.

Skylinehead · 06-07-2014 05:20PM

valderrama1 wrote: »

It reflects on us as a people. "Hi I'm Irish. I speak English".

"Hi I'm American. I speak English."
"Hi I'm Australian. I speak English."
"Hi I'm Canadian. I speak English."

"Hi I'm Swiss. I speak German."
"Hi I'm Ivorian. I speak French."

So what?

valderrama1 · 06-07-2014 05:56PM

Skylinehead wrote: »

"Hi I'm American. I speak English."
"Hi I'm Australian. I speak English."
"Hi I'm Canadian. I speak English."

"Hi I'm Swiss. I speak German."
"Hi I'm Ivorian. I speak French."

So what?

So it's a part of our cultural identity. So it reflects on you if you can't see any value in it at all, and only have English.
Also English spoken in Ireland is heavily influenced by Irish, grammar, pronunciation everything.
Whether you like it or not it's part of our heritage. Not our only heritage but part of our heritage nonetheless. Original title of the thread is "Can we kill Irish once and for all" ffs.

America, Australia and Canada were founded by English settlers. That is their heritage.

No you can't, in many other countries, there's only the national language spoken.

EVERY person who speaks Irish, also speaks English. So although you can use it to speak to them, you also can use English.

What I mean here is. You can watch tv on your phone, but it's not very useful to watch on such a small screen, and you'd be better off using a TV.

You're comparing Irish, as if it's the only language spoken in this country, it isn't.

No but for the Irish speaking community the comparison is valid.

Anyone raised speaking Irish, will still speak Irish to others who can, removing it from being compulsory in schools won't change this. Anyone who lives in the gaelteach will still speak Irish, because they hear everyday. Making Irish optional won't change this.

Have to agree with you here. For a lot of people we could probably get to the same level just starting in secondary school. People have no desire though to learn Irish and that is also a factor. Can't blame teachers for that.

Basically, the people who already speak it, will still speak it, those who don't will have that time that could be spent on learning another language, which like it or not, accept it or not, is more useful long term career wise than Irish.

Which is more valuable, having a basic knowledge of Irish or having a knowledge of a widely used foreign language? Both are valuable for different reasons.
This also assumes that leaving students' competency in foreign languages is way above what it actually is. It might be of use to a business to have you able to understand an email but usually if you want to do a job where a language is a big part of the day to day work, you'd better have full fluency or not at all.

FunLover18 · 06-07-2014 06:06PM

GaelMise wrote: »

What would happen to a student who refused to study Irish? Any examples of students being expelled or refused their LC for refusing to do Irish?
More than likely the school would do the same thing in the situation outlined in relation to English and Maths above as they tend to do when it happens with Irish. Drag the parents in, argue for a while and if they dont back down, grudgingly allow the child to sit in the class doing nothing and quietly fail that part of their LC.
(It's quite unusual that the parents would be happy for their child to do nothing, so most often an arangement is made, thats what foundation level is for after all.)

You are suggesting that a school cannot make a subject compulsory? Perhaps someone should tell them that, as they clearly do make subjects other than Irish compulsory for their students on a regular basis. Nor is there anything to say that the can't.

Surely these arguments contradict each other? A school can make a subject compulsory but they'll let you off doing it if you want? Can you show me where it says schools can make a subject compulsory?

uch wrote: »

there'd be nothing "wrong" in my opinion, but it wouldn't be "Right" in my opinion either to drop it

We're not talking about dropping it completely, we just want to make it optional … for the final two years of a 14 year education system.

uch wrote: »

Lads it's here to stay, so why not embrace it? instead of moaning

We don't have a choice, hence the moaning. You'd probably moan if Welsh was made compulsory.

GaelMise wrote: »

No. However, plenty of people who support keeping Irish compulsory see efforts to make it optional as part of a wider effort to get rid of Irish altogether. You may think this is paranoid, but such an effort to get rid of Irish altogether by way of making it optional is the subject of the thread after all.

This is true, I will accept that. I'm not one of these and I don't want to see the language die. But can you not understand that a lot of the animosity felt towards Irish comes from it being compulsory in schools? Do you realise how much easier it would be for them to not give a toss about the language if they didn't have to deal with it? Also the responsibility of keeping Irish alive lies with those who want to do so. What is compulsory LC Irish doing for the language that is so vital, how are those two yeas in any way contributing to the survival of the language?

RandomName2 · 06-07-2014 06:29PM

GaelMise wrote: »

He said that Irish is not used as a means of communication, that it not true and he knows that, therefore, its a lie.
Hardily that complicated now is it?

LIES I TELL YOU! LIES!!!

It isn't used as a means of communication, at least in the relative sense. Same way that, unless you are going to split hairs, canals aren't a means of transport in Ireland.

I'm asking you to be realistic about a language that is a household language for 3% of the population.

I mean Dothraki and Elvish are used as media of communication by dedicated fans, and I don't have anything against that. You may do, saying they aren't "real" languages, or aren't part of a "real" culture, but I'd argue against that if you did. Not that I'd describe them as means of communication wherever it is they happen to be used. Why? Because you can be safe in the assumption that nobody but they would understand them. That's not a means of communication - it's the opposite.

FunLover18 · 06-07-2014 06:34PM

valderrama1 wrote: »

So it's a part of our cultural identity. So it reflects on you if you can't see any value in it at all, and only have English.
Also English spoken in Ireland is heavily influenced by Irish, grammar, pronunciation everything.
Whether you like it or not it's part of our heritage. Not our only heritage but part of our heritage nonetheless. Original title of the thread is "Can we kill Irish once and for all" ffs.

I'm Irish and I speak English and I don't care what reflection that has on me, and I don't care what reflection it has on others either. If you want to be Irish and speak Irish that's fine, and optional Irish at LC won't stop but why should these sentimental standards be forced upon the rest of us?

The first post makes it clear that the OP is talking purely about making it optional at LC, how is making it optional denying it as part of our heritage when GAA and trad music aren't compulsory; the study of Irish heritage through history isn't even compulsory. Do you think it will fail to be a part of our heritage if made optional?

valderrama1 wrote: »

America, Australia and Canada were founded by English settlers. That is their heritage.

English people were not the only people who settled America. Wasn't Claifornia settled by the Spanish, and Louisianna and other parts were settles by the French ... oh and lets not forget the Native Americans.

valderrama1 wrote: »

Have to agree with you here. For a lot of people we could probably get to the same level just starting in secondary school. People have no desire though to learn Irish and that is also a factor. Can't blame teachers for that.

So why not allow them to drop it at LC?

valderrama1 wrote: »

Which is more valuable, having a basic knowledge of Irish or having a knowledge of a widely used foreign language? Both are valuable for different reasons.
This also assumes that leaving students' competency in foreign languages is way above what it actually is. It might be of use to a business to have you able to understand an email but usually if you want to do a job where a language is a big part of the day to day work, you'd better have full fluency or not at all.

There is no objective answer to this question? It should be up to the individual.

Grayson · 06-07-2014 06:35PM

valderrama1 wrote: »

No.... It is useful. It's useful because he can use Irish to speak to other Irish speakers. There are not a huge number of them but there are still about 30,000 people in this country that do use it as their language. You shouldn't be forced to learn it but it is useful to GaelMise.

You could apply the same logic to any country that use a language that is not "useful" because it's not spoken by a large number of people globally, or because it's not useful in business.

I wouldn't go down the path of being "useful". If useful is all that matters then technically polish or chinese is more "useful".

valderrama1 wrote: »

It reflects on us as a people. "Hi I'm Irish. I speak English".

I wouldn't worry about that. Apparently Garth Brooks has taken care of it. It doesn't matter if we speak Irish or kil 800 babies in Tuam, we are forever tarnished by Garth Brooks.

RandomName2 · 06-07-2014 06:41PM

valderrama1 wrote: »

No.... It is useful. It's useful because he can use Irish to speak to other Irish speakers. There are not a huge number of them but there are still about 30,000 people in this country that do use it as their language. You shouldn't be forced to learn it but it is useful to GaelMise.

You could apply the same logic to any country that use a language that is not "useful" because it's not spoken by a large number of people globally, or because it's not useful in business.

What "use" has Greek other than the fact that it's spoken by Greeks? Or Danish or Estonian or any other small country? You don't see them saying their language is useless. It reflects on us as a people. "Hi I'm Irish. I speak English".

Latin is arguably more part of our culture than Irish. It was the language of the Church in Ireland, and the Church became the rallying point for culture on the island. Today when we look to old Irish culture we look to the tradition of monasticism. Try finding a copy of the vulgate written in Irish. :rolleyes:

kingchess · 06-07-2014 07:33PM

RandomName2 wrote: »

Latin is arguably more part of our culture than Irish. It was the language of the Church in Ireland, and the Church became the rallying point for culture on the island. Today when we look to old Irish culture we look to the tradition of monasticism. Try finding a copy of the vulgate written in Irish. :rolleyes:

yeah,up until the famine most of the Irish would be talking away to each other in Latin:rolleyes:

FunLover18 · 06-07-2014 07:36PM

kingchess wrote: »

yeah,up until the famine most of the Irish would be talking away to each other in Latin:rolleyes:

And now, most of the Irish are talking to each other in Irish :rolleyes:

131spanner · 06-07-2014 07:39PM

58% against compulsory Gaeilge, 42% pro.

That's actually quite surprising really!

kingchess · 06-07-2014 07:43PM

FunLover18 wrote: »

And now, most of the Irish are talking to each other in Irish :rolleyes:

wrong again-most of the Irish are talking to each other in English

sheesh · 06-07-2014 07:52PM

As I have suffered so you shall suffer!

also culture and stuff.......

RandomName2 · 06-07-2014 07:56PM

kingchess wrote: »

yeah,up until the famine most of the Irish would be talking away to each other in Latin:rolleyes:

You talked to many of these pre-famine Irish speakers recently? Got any on camera? Any literature written by them even?

I don't really see how they have much bearing on our current culture then.

The Book of Kells has more impact on our inherited culture than ten million Irish speakers who never recorded their thoughts or ideas.

valderrama1 · 06-07-2014 08:05PM

RandomName2 wrote: »

You talked to many of these pre-famine Irish speakers recently? Got any on camera? Any literature written by them even?

Was speaking to my neighbour there a while ago. His english is hardly the queen's english.
Jaysus he's mighty at the latin though.
Ever read Peig by the way?

I don't really see how they have much bearing on our current culture then.

pff History. Who needs it. How could that have an influence on how we are now?

The Book of Kells has more impact on our inherited culture than ten million Irish speakers who never recorded their thoughts or ideas.

Bestseller it was. I think everyone at the time had a copy.

magentis · 06-07-2014 08:07PM

shane7218 wrote: »

I think its time to stop with the stupidity of forcing people to sit an Irish exam for the leaving cert. It's fine for the Junior but how is it fair that you have to do it for an exam that determines the college course you get ?. It's long overdue to add technology related exams such as Programming exams which are actually useful.

Fcuk off and tiocfaidh ar la.

FunLover18 · 06-07-2014 08:08PM

valderrama1 wrote: »

pff History. Who needs it. How could that have an influence on how we are now?

How come the language, which has very little to do with how we are now, is the only part of our history deemed important enough to be compulsory?

kingchess · 06-07-2014 08:13PM

RandomName2 wrote: »

You talked to many of these pre-famine Irish speakers recently? Got any on camera? Any literature written by them even?

I don't really see how they have much bearing on our current culture then.

The Book of Kells has more impact on our inherited culture than ten million Irish speakers who never recorded their thoughts or ideas.

no,have you??of course the book of kells ,and religion had a massive impact on our inherited culture.(ps-google "vernacular literature")

Can we kill Irish once and for all

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