Can we kill Irish once and for all

FunLover18 · 05-07-2014 08:41PM

pablomakaveli wrote: »

I think the big issue is the way Irish is thought. I can't understand the logic in teaching a language by making you read stories or poems and then answer questions on them when people don't have a basic grasp on the language. It makes learning Irish a frustrating experience.

I honestly can't understand why the education system in Ireland continues to support this method when it has been a catastrophic failure.

I hated Irish in school as a result of this and it was only years later that i begun to regret the fact i'm not fluent in our native language. (I'm looking forward to the release of the Irish program on Duolingo and hopefully it'll help me improve my Irish).

FWIW i think Irish should be optional in Leaving Cert. There's no benefit to forcing it on people who struggle with it or hate it because that doesn't improve the situation. But there does need to be a massive overhaul in how it's thought because the language will continue to decline otherwise.

There should be a campaign to put pressure on the education system in Ireland to change how Irish is thought because they seem to be reluctant to get off there arses and do it.

I the idea behind the poetry and stories at LC is that after eleven prior years of studying the language people really should be at a level where they can analyse poetry etc through the language. The problem is that compulsory Irish means that students with no interest in the language are dragging down the standard and holding back students who do care. Unfortunately the main concern for Irish speakers is not preserving the language alone but preserving it as a staple of Irish culture (which it isn't) and the best way they know of doing this is by forcing it on everyone else.

Reading through this thread the only arguments in favour of compulsory Irish for LC are:

It's part of our culture - ignoring the fact that 60% of the population don't speak it, ignoring the fact that no other part of our culture is compulsory in schools
It will die - no justification or proof behind this argument and completely contradicts the first argument
Well, English and Maths are compulsory - they're not

pablomakaveli · 05-07-2014 09:06PM

FunLover18 wrote: »

I the idea behind the poetry and stories at LC is that after eleven prior years of studying the language people really should be at a level where they can analyse poetry etc through the language. The problem is that compulsory Irish means that students with no interest in the language are dragging down the standard and holding back students who do care. Unfortunately the main concern for Irish speakers is not preserving the language alone but preserving it as a staple of Irish culture (which it isn't) and the best way they know of doing this is by forcing it on everyone else.

Reading through this thread the only arguments in favour of compulsory Irish for LC are:
It's part of our culture - ignoring the fact that 60% of the population don't speak it, ignoring the fact that no other part of our culture is compulsory in schools

It will die - no justification or proof behind this argument and completely contradicts the first argument

Well, English and Maths are compulsory - they're not

Well that was the way it was thought to me going as far back as primary school. Thats not confined to LC.

Also if you read the third paragraph of my previous post you'll see that i'm in favour of Irish being optional in LC.

FunLover18 · 05-07-2014 09:09PM

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Well that was the way it was thought to me going as far back as primary school. Thats not confined to LC.

Also if you read the third paragraph of my previous post you'll see that i'm in favour of Irish being optional in LC.

Sorry if it sounded like I was scolding, I thought you were talking about the LC curriculum. From my own experience I don't remember going near poetry or prose in primary school … maybe I've blocked it out.

My final point about the arguments was more of an aside, and not really in response to your post, sorry about confusion

GaelMise · 05-07-2014 09:49PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

He's right. The only state mandated compulsory subject is Irish. It was the school that made you do Maths and English not the state.

Whats your point? I'm really at a loss as to what difference it makes weather the school or the state makes a subject compulsory, its still compulsory.

GaelMise · 05-07-2014 10:00PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

We are culturally ENGLISH speakers and every bit of media we consume is in English.

Mind that 'we' business, unless this 'we' of your's for some reason excludes those of us who speak and consume media in Irish as well as in English, then it is simply inaccurate.

RandomName2 · 05-07-2014 10:11PM

GaelMise wrote: »

Mind that 'we' business, unless this 'we' of your's for some reason excludes those of us who speak and consume media in Irish as well as in English, then it is simply inaccurate.

This 'we' is everyone in this country... you know, every single person who speaks English and consume English media... as opposed to the small minority who consume media in Irish... who are, by definition, not everyone, and therefore not 'we'.

GaelMise · 05-07-2014 10:21PM

RandomName2 wrote: »

This 'we' is everyone in this country...

If thats the defenition of 'we' that is being used, then obviously not every bit of media 'we' consume is in English.

FunLover18 · 05-07-2014 10:42PM

GaelMise wrote: »

Whats your point? I'm really at a loss as to what difference it makes weather the school or the state makes a subject compulsory, its still compulsory.

There's a huge difference. Schools don't set the curriculum, the state does. A school can't make anybody do Maths and English when it's not required by the state, whereas in the eyes of the state I don't have a Leaving Cert unless I've done Irish.

GaelMise · 05-07-2014 10:45PM

FunLover18 wrote: »

There's a huge difference. Schools don't not set the curriculum, the state does.

Assuming the dubble negative was unintentional, whats your point?

A school can't make anybody do Maths and English when it's not required by the state.

Oh yes they can.

whereas in the eyes of the state I don't have a Leaving Cert unless I've done Irish.

Wrong.

FunLover18 · 05-07-2014 10:54PM

GaelMise wrote: »

Assuming the dubble negative was unintentional, whats your point?

It was, edited. The point was that one of the arguments often totted out when people suggest making Irish optional for LC is "well, we should make English and Maths optional as well" when in fact they already are and Irish is the only compulsory subject at Leaving Cert level

GaelMise wrote: »

Oh yes they can.

A school can decide what subjects to teach but it can't deviate from the curriculum set by the state. And they can't deny me my LC because I didn't do Maths and English when the state places no requirement on me to do so.

GaelMise wrote: »

Wrong.

The way I read it, the only way I can get a Leaving Cert without Irish is if I have an exemption.

GaelMise · 05-07-2014 11:03PM

FunLover18 wrote: »

It was, edited. The point was that one of the arguments often totted out when people suggest making Irish optional for LC is "well, we should make English and Maths optional as well" when in fact they already are and Irish is the only compulsory subject at Leaving Cert level

Show me one school where either English or Maths are optional. If they are not compulsory then what are they? They can hardily be called optional when no one gets an option not to do them. Again, what difference does it make who makes a subject compulsory, school or state its still compulsory, pretending that something is only compulsory if the state makes it compulsory is a bit of a distortion of what compulsory actually means.

A school can decide what subjects to teach but it can't deviate from the curriculum set by the state. And they can't deny me my LC because I didn't do Maths and English when the state places no requirement on me to do so.

They can't deny you your LC full stop. Sit your Irish exam or not.

The way I read it, the only way I can get a Leaving Cert without Irish is if I have an exemption.

Nope, you fail Irish, or fail to sit your Irish Exam, you fail Irish, not the LC. Same as maths or English or any other subject.

Sierra 117 · 05-07-2014 11:13PM

Irish should be optional for the LC. The students who wish to continue Irish will be in classes with other students of the same mind and those who don't want to continue Irish can focus on something else for their LC.

It's win/win.

FunLover18 · 05-07-2014 11:17PM

GaelMise wrote: »

Show me one school where either English or Maths are optional. If they are not compulsory then what are they? They can hardily be called optional when no one gets an option not to do them. Again, what difference does it make who makes a subject compulsory, school or state its still compulsory, pretending that something is only compulsory if the state makes it compulsory is a bit of a distortion of what compulsory actually means..

The state says students must study Irish for the LC. There's no mention of English or Maths therefore I fail to see how a school could justifiably force students to study those subjects, however because of the department of education stipulation re Irish they can enforce compulsory Irish. They are called state exams after all, so the schools must comply and can't deviate.

GaelMise wrote: »

They can't deny you your LC full stop. Sit your Irish exam or not..

I don't know if you've read back to my quote from the department of education website but it says students must study 5 subjects one of which must be Irish (unless one has an exemption). I don't see another way around it, why would they stipulate it otherwise (genuine question)? Are you talking about actually sitting the exam?

GaelMise wrote: »

Nope, you fail Irish, or fail to sit your Irish Exam, you fail Irish, not the LC. Same as maths or English or any other subject.

I will accept this point, I was confusing studying with passing.

GaelMise · 05-07-2014 11:29PM

FunLover18 wrote: »

The state says students must study Irish for the LC. There's no mention of English or Maths therefore I fail to see how a school could justifiably force students to study those subjects, however because of the department of education stipulation re Irish they can enforce compulsory Irish. They are called state exams after all, so the schools must comply and can't deviate.

Every school can and do enforce compulsory English and Maths too. I'm not arguing that the state makes English an Maths compulsory, just saying that all schools make English and Maths compulsory for their students and that there is no difference in practice between schools making a subject compulsory and the state making it compulsory, its still compulsory.

I don't know if you've read back to my quote from the department of education website but it says students must study 5 subjects one of which must be Irish (unless one has an exemption). I don't see another way around it, why would they stipulate it otherwise (genuine question)? Are you talking about actually sitting the exam?

I'm not arguing that Irish is not compulsory.
What i'm saying is there is no difference between a school making a subject compulsory, and the state making it compulsory. Its still compulsory for the student.

Answer me this, if the student is not given the option of not doing English or Maths at any point, in what sense are they optional?

FunLover18 · 06-07-2014 12:03AM

GaelMise wrote: »

Every school can and do enforce compulsory English and Maths too. I'm not arguing that the state makes English an Maths compulsory, just saying that all schools make English and Maths compulsory for their students and that there is no difference in pracftice between schools making a subject compulsory and the state making it compulsory, its still compulsory.

I see your point but what would happen to a student who refused to do English and Maths in a school which made it compulsory? The way I understand it I don't see how a school could refuse a student their LC or expel them, I don't understand on what what grounds they could do so.

GaelMise wrote: »

I'm not arguing that Irish is not compulsory.
What i'm saying is there is no difference between a school making a subject compulsory, and the state making it compulsory. Its still compulsory for the student.

Answer me this, if the student is not given the option of not doing English or Maths at any point, in what sense are they optional?

I'm arguing that there is a difference. The LC is a state exam and the curriculum is set by the state. The state has stipulated that Irish must be studied, therefore schools are obliged to enforce that. The state makes no reference to any other subjects being compulsory therefore I fail to understand how a school can insist on students studying a subject when the state has made no reference to said subject. Just because the student is not given the option of not studying a subject doesn't mean it isn't there, it clearly is.

Has there ever been a case of student challenging a school re English and Maths?

shane7218 · 06-07-2014 12:06AM

GaelMise wrote: »

Show me one school where either English or Maths are optional. If they are not compulsory then what are they? They can hardily be called optional when no one gets an option not to do them. Again, what difference does it make who makes a subject compulsory, school or state its still compulsory, pretending that something is only compulsory if the state makes it compulsory is a bit of a distortion of what compulsory actually means.

They can't deny you your LC full stop. Sit your Irish exam or not.

Nope, you fail Irish, or fail to sit your Irish Exam, you fail Irish, not the LC. Same as maths or English or any other subject.

If you fail Irish you fail the leaving cert simple as that. You don't get a leaving cert if you fail Irish it is a requirement to pass

Davidius · 06-07-2014 12:28AM

shane7218 wrote: »

If you fail Irish you fail the leaving cert simple as that. You don't get a leaving cert if you fail Irish it is a requirement to pass

That hasn't been the case for nearly 20 years. At most you won't meet NUI's and perhaps some other college's matriculation requirements.

GaelMise · 06-07-2014 12:30AM

FunLover18 wrote: »

I see your point but what would happen to a student who refused to do English and Maths in a school which made it compulsory? The way I understand it I don't see how a school could refuse a student their LC or expel them, I don't understand on what what grounds they could do so.

What would happen to a student who refused to study Irish? Any examples of students being expelled or refused their LC for refusing to do Irish?
More than likely the school would do the same thing in the situation outlined in relation to English and Maths above as they tend to do when it happens with Irish. Drag the parents in, argue for a while and if they dont back down, grudgingly allow the child to sit in the class doing nothing and quietly fail that part of their LC.
(It's quite unusual that the parents would be happy for their child to do nothing, so most often an arangement is made, thats what foundation level is for after all.)

I'm arguing that there is a difference. The LC is a state exam and the curriculum is set by the state. The state has stipulated that Irish must be studied, therefore schools are obliged to enforce that. The state makes no reference to any other subjects being compulsory therefore I fail to understand how a school can insist on students studying a subject when the state has made no reference to said subject. Just because the student is not given the option of not studying a subject doesn't mean it isn't there, it clearly is.

You are suggesting that a school cannot make a subject compulsory? Perhaps someone should tell them that, as they clearly do make subjects other than Irish compulsory for their students on a regular basis. Nor is there anything to say that the can't.

Has there ever been a case of student challenging a school re English and Maths?

Depends on what you mean by challenging, complaining, of course there has, a court case against the school, not to my knowledge.

GaelMise · 06-07-2014 12:31AM

shane7218 wrote: »

If you fail Irish you fail the leaving cert simple as that. You don't get a leaving cert if you fail Irish it is a requirement to pass

No, its not.

GaelMise · 06-07-2014 12:32AM

Davidius wrote: »

That hasn't been the case for nearly 20 years. At most you won't meet NUI's and perhaps some other college's matriculation requirements.

Nearly 50 years actually.

uch · 06-07-2014 12:40AM

shane7218 wrote: »

If you fail Irish you fail the leaving cert simple as that. You don't get a leaving cert if you fail Irish it is a requirement to pass

Talking through yer hole now

shane7218 · 06-07-2014 12:40AM

uch wrote: »

Talking through yer hole now

So what course can you get without Irish in the country ?

auldgranny · 06-07-2014 12:44AM

shane7218 wrote: »

So what course can you get without Irish in the country ?

Everything except primary teaching

GaelMise · 06-07-2014 12:45AM

shane7218 wrote: »

So what course can you get without Irish in the country ?

So do you accept that you don't actually fail the LC if you fail Irish?
Matriculation and failing the LC are quite different things, and seen as you asked, there are plenty of courses you can do without Irish. Several Universities outside the NUI don't require Irish as an entry requirement.

uch · 06-07-2014 12:48AM

Yep, I actually got accepted to UCD to do an Gaeilge Degree even though I was exempt from Irish in school

auldgranny · 06-07-2014 12:49AM

uch wrote: »

Yep, I actually got accepted to UCD to do an Gaeilge Degree even though I was exempt from Irish in school

Seriously?

shane7218 · 06-07-2014 12:50AM

GaelMise wrote: »

So do you accept that you don't actually fail the LC if you fail Irish?
Matriculation and failing the LC are quite different things, and seen as you asked, there are plenty of courses you can do without Irish. Several Universities outside the NUI don't require Irish as an entry requirement.

uch wrote: »

Yep, I actually got accepted to UCD to do an Gaeilge Degree even though I was exempt from Irish in school

I did not realize that

, but still its illogical to leave the subject compulsory.

Also having an exemption makes you exempt from any requirements :rolleyes:

Iwasfrozen · 06-07-2014 12:50AM

GaelMise wrote: »

Nearly 50 years actually.

Then what's the problem with making it optional.

uch · 06-07-2014 12:55AM

auldgranny wrote: »

Seriously?

Yep, wasn't clever enough to get the Degree, but I ended up with a Diploma in Irish Grammer

uch · 06-07-2014 12:56AM

shane7218 wrote: »

I did not realize that , but still its illogical to leave the subject compulsory.

Also having an exemption makes you exempt from any requirements :rolleyes:

No it doesn't, trust me

Can we kill Irish once and for all

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