Can we kill Irish once and for all

partyguinness · 04-07-2014 01:07PM

shane7218 wrote: »

So the Irish langauge is the only thing that makes us Unique ??? So our music, dancing etc has no meaning at all ? Today we force people and what difference does it make ? Most people in the country cant speak it and most dont care. Why not let a person decide for themselves

I never said that at all. We are talking about the language here specifically are we not?

There are many different facets to a nation's 'culture' and society. We have done remarkably well to preserve Irish to this day despite all the pressure over the centuries. Yes, one of the methods of preserving it e.g. mandatory teaching is a constant debate.

You say that most of the country don't care? You clearly have some evidence to back that up that I have never seen.

I tell you what, as Irish is enshrined in the Constitution as the language of this State (along with English), why do not hold a referendum and ask the citizens to vote to remove Irish from the Contitution which may then remove it's mandatory place in Irish schools, Dail Eireann, the Courts etc altogether.

How do you think the vote would go?

shane7218 · 04-07-2014 01:08PM

BizzyC wrote: »

Hold on, last time I checked there are plenty of options for 3rd level education that do not require Irish.
I have plenty of friends with degrees and decent jobs who can't understand a word.

The issue you have here is that your course required it which annoyed you.

TBH I think it is a bad sign if someone can't manage to pass an exam in a subject that they've been taught for 12 years.
If you don't have the basics of something learned after 12 years, why should I have confidence that you're going to be able to handle the workload of a degree?

My course does not require it, EVERYONE has to do it. You dont have a choice unless you have a reason for an exception.

Also I will be finishing my degree next year with what looks like a first class honors. So because I didn’t do well in Irish has no impact on my intelligence for the career I want to pursue

Insect Overlord · 04-07-2014 01:09PM

shane7218 wrote: »

My course does not require it, EVERYONE has to do it. You dont have a choice unless you have a reason for an exception

So your problem is that you couldn't make up the points with all the other subjects you were doing?

partyguinness · 04-07-2014 01:10PM

Grayson wrote: »

If you think the language is the only thing that stops us being English you really don't know this country and you really have no respect for it.

WTF??

I suppose asking you to elaborate would be too much to ask.

See my last comment...

shane7218 · 04-07-2014 01:12PM

An File wrote: »

So your problem is that you couldn't make up the points with all the other subjects you were doing?

I did make up the points and I got the course I want. The point is why should I have to do extra work to take a subject that is totally useless and I have no interest in. If I dont want to do history I can CHOOSE not to. If I dont want to do science I can CHOOSE not to.

Friend Computer · 04-07-2014 01:12PM

partyguinness wrote: »

We must do all we can to protect our culture and heritage.

You might want to tone down this sort of language. It's edging dangerously close to "fourteen words" territory.

Ignoring that by their nature cultures are in a constant state of flux, who or what are you protecting them from?

Hotfail.com · 04-07-2014 01:12PM

shane7218 wrote: »

So the Irish langauge is the only thing that makes us Unique ??? So our music, dancing etc has no meaning at all ? Today we force people and what difference does it make ? Most people in the country cant speak it and most dont care. Why not let a person decide for themselves

So we're on page 12 now and your argument still hasn't moved past "it's useless", "it's dead" and "I was no good at it so therefore they should change make it optimal".

Irish dancing is just as "dead" as the Irish language going by your logic, with music not far behind it if you take away the interest tourists have in it. To say that most people "don't care" about the Irish language is just plain wrong when you consider that Gaelscoileanna are more popular than they've ever been.

With regards to the "most people don't speak it" argument, why shouldn't we try to fix that problem instead of just giving up on it? Wouldn't a radical overhaul of the teaching of Irish with the aim of improving the standard of student's Irish language skills/improving their interest in it be far preferable to letting our country's unique language die?

shane7218 · 04-07-2014 01:14PM

Hotfail.com wrote: »

So we're on page 12 now and your argument still hasn't moved past "it's useless", "it's dead" and "I was no good at it so therefore they should change make it optimal".

Irish dancing is just as "dead" as the Irish language going by your logic, with music not far behind it if you take away the interest tourists have in it. To say that most people "don't care" about the Irish language is just plain wrong when you consider that Gaelscoileanna are more popular than they've ever been.

With regards to the "most people don't speak it" argument, why shouldn't we try to fix that problem instead of just giving up on it? Wouldn't a radical overhaul of the teaching of Irish with the aim of improving the standard of student's Irish language skills/improving their interest in it be far preferable to letting our country's unique language die?

But again. Why not let everyone make that decision for themselves ??? Why force it upon them

partyguinness · 04-07-2014 01:17PM

Friend Computer wrote: »

You might want to tone down this sort of language. It's edging dangerously close to "fourteen words" territory.

Ignoring that by their nature cultures are in a constant state of flux, who or what are you protecting them from?

Perhaps 'preserve' is the more approrpiate word.

I am note sure why 'fourteen words' is in quotations. Who said that and what am I missing here!

partyguinness · 04-07-2014 01:19PM

shane7218 wrote: »

But again. Why not let everyone make that decision for themselves ??? Why force it upon them

Hell, why stop there? Lets stop forcing children to undertake primary and secondary education altogether. Let the masses decide.

Hotfail.com · 04-07-2014 01:20PM

shane7218 wrote: »

But again. Why not let everyone make that decision for themselves ??? Why force it upon them

I agree with you on that point, but there should only be a decision to make after the junior cert is completed. This whole "when can we kill Irish?" thing is what I'm having issues with.

Friend Computer · 04-07-2014 01:25PM

partyguinness wrote: »

Perhaps 'preserve' is the more approrpiate word.

I just don't like the connotations of it. Change is an intrinsic part of human nature and particularly, attempts to "protect" or "defend" culture are usually a smokescreen for the more unpleasant elements of nationalism.

At the least it's horribly myopic and hopelessly futile. Cultures change; you just have to accept that.

I am note sure why 'fourteen words' is in quotations. Who said that and what am I missing here!

"Fourteen words" is a slang term used by white nationalists to refer to a common mantra among them: "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for White Childre."

The likes of the BNP and other nationalist parties around Europe usually talk up defending their culture and such to disguise their xenophobic agendas. I admit, I shouldn't have used that term but after witnessing the rise of such parties I just automatically link the two together.

partyguinness · 04-07-2014 01:28PM

Hotfail.com wrote: »

I agree with you on that point, but there should only be a decision to make after the junior cert is completed. This whole "when can we kill Irish?" thing is what I'm having issues with.

OP clearly has a very negative attitude toward Irish in actively seeking to 'kill Irish' as opposed to letting it sink or swim without mandatory teaching. That is fine, but not very good at making his/her points.

I am a little shocked that s/he may first class degree with some of the points (in the very liberal sense of the word) and language used to date...:eek:

TGJD · 04-07-2014 01:29PM

Seriously this again? It's not a difficult language. We learn it from primary school making it an easy way to get points on the lc. If you spent less time bitching about it and more time making an effort to learn then it wouldnt be so tough for you. The underlying problem is people making excuses for not being good at something to make themselves feel like its ok. I dont understand why people get so angry about irish. Its a language ffs.

Theta · 04-07-2014 01:35PM

The simple fact of the matter is that education is built by a society to produce individuals who can be part of it. The Irish education system thinks that school leavers should habe at least three core attributes (apart from the actual content of the subject) to belong to this society,

Maths - Provides a medium to build reasoning, logical thought and application.
English - Builds the mind to communicate, have an emotional memory, creative though process etc.
Irish - Provides us as with a sense of who "we" are as a people and encourages us to invest in our culture and past.

Then it provides space for that person to determine what they should add to that blueprint to define them as an individual in that society with history, physics etc.

I finished my leaving certificate 11 years ago and then completed and honours degree in CS much like the OP and looking back on it now (and even though it has no bearing on my profession) I wish I had invested more time in Irish when I finished school.

What im trying to say is that education provides children (we are children when doing the leaving certificate) a direction in life to make our own choices but as children we don't have the experiences to determine that direction. What they make us do and what they make us not do helps us make those decisions later on in life.

partyguinness · 04-07-2014 01:37PM

Friend Computer wrote: »

I just don't like the connotations of it. Change is an intrinsic part of human nature and particularly, attempts to "protect" or "defend" culture are usually a smokescreen for the more unpleasant elements of nationalism.

At the least it's horribly myopic and hopelessly futile. Cultures change; you just have to accept that.

"Fourteen words" is a slang term used by white nationalists to refer to a common mantra among them: "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for White Childre."

The likes of the BNP and other nationalist parties around Europe usually talk up defending their culture and such to disguise their xenophobic agendas. I admit, I shouldn't have used that term but after witnessing the rise of such parties I just automatically link the two together.

Wow...back up there a little...

Discussing or even defending the current state of the the Irish language and linking it with the BNP/nationalism/xenophobia is way off the mark. I believe you may be reading a little too much into my post and I can assure you there is no 'smokescreen'.

You are right cultures and languages change everyday. Languages are not and should not be fossilised. In fact, I think the more open Irish society has become has helped Irish survive. If we were still in the 1980s, God help us all.

IMO, I think the current Irish movement (if I can call it that) has done remarkably well over the past 20 years or so in maintaining relevance and adapting. Some of the best documentaries on TV are on TnaG in Irish. As mentioned earlier, Gaeilscoils are very popular and I know Polish and Germans who take Irish classes.

BizzyC · 04-07-2014 01:40PM

shane7218 wrote: »

If I dont want to do science I can CHOOSE not to.

No you can't.

Every computer degree I've ever seen required a science subject in the LC.
Is it wrong that they force you to study something like biology when that has nothing to do with computers?

In the end it's the 3rd level institutions that determine which LC subjects are important for the students they're willing to take on.
If you don't like what they expect of you, go to a different institution.

House of Blaze · 04-07-2014 01:40PM

What's puszzling is that the people who come out with the strongest arguments in favour of Irish don't actually speak it at home themselves.

I would have thought, as others have mentioned, that becoming fluent in your native tongue should be accomplished in the first few years of life.

The failure of the Irish language in my opinion is the failure of the Irish people to use their language.

If everyone spoke it at home and in everyday life then it would make sense, but that isn't the case.

All the people taught Irish 20 and 30 years ago had a choice when bringing up their children to do so in a manner that preserves and continues their irish heritage by using the language in daily life and around the home.

But they didn't. And so the language becomes a cultural tokenism that people cling to as a means of self identifying their own Irishness and defend it to the death despite being guilty of allowing it to fall by the wayside!

It's just a bit mental if you ask me!

Hotfail.com · 04-07-2014 01:41PM

TGJD wrote: »

Seriously this again? It's not a difficult language. We learn it from primary school making it an easy way to get points on the lc. If you spent less time bitching about it and more time making an effort to learn then it wouldnt be so tough for you. The underlying problem is people making excuses for not being good at something to make themselves feel like its ok. I dont understand why people get so angry about irish. Its a language ffs.

This.

And if you're no good at Irish you can do pass Irish, which is so unbelievably easy to pass that you'd nearly have to try to fail it.

partyguinness · 04-07-2014 01:51PM

House of Blaze wrote: »

What's puszzling is that the people who come out with the strongest arguments in favour of Irish don't actually speak it at home themselves.

I would have thought, as others have mentioned, that becoming fluent in your native tongue should be accomplished in the first few years of life.

The failure of the Irish language in my opinion is the failure of the Irish people to use their language.

If everyone spoke it at home and in everyday life then it would make sense, but that isn't the case.

All the people taught Irish 20 and 30 years ago had a choice when bringing up their children to do so in a manner that preserves and continues their irish heritage by using the language in daily life and around the home.

But they didn't. And so the language becomes a cultural tokenism that people cling to as a means of self identifying their own Irishness and defend it to the death despite being guilty of allowing it to fall by the wayside!

It's just a bit mental if you ask me!

Funnily enough, I know native Irish speakers and they get quite put out if anyone else tries to speak Irish to them. They see it as 'their' language for their use only. I saw this native speaker blow up one night in a pub when some lad was trying to converse with hiim in Irish. He basically told him to F Off and that he wasnt entitled to speak Irish....

It's like some weird reverse snobbery.

kylith · 04-07-2014 01:51PM

House of Blaze wrote: »

What's puszzling is that the people who come out with the strongest arguments in favour of Irish don't actually speak it at home themselves.

I would have thought, as others have mentioned, that becoming fluent in your native tongue should be accomplished in the first few years of life.

The failure of the Irish language in my opinion is the failure of the Irish people to use their language.

If everyone spoke it at home and in everyday life then it would make sense, but that isn't the case.

All the people taught Irish 20 and 30 years ago had a choice when bringing up their children to do so in a manner that preserves and continues their irish heritage by using the language in daily life and around the home.

But they didn't. And so the language becomes a cultural tokenism that people cling to as a means of self identifying their own Irishness and defend it to the death despite being guilty of allowing it to fall by the wayside!

It's just a bit mental if you ask me!

I can only speak for myself but the reason I am so in favour of Irish being taught in schools is because I can't speak it myself. I spent my years in school with the same opinion as the OP; it's boring, it's dead, it's no use, who cares about it anyway. And then I went abroad and found that people ask you to speak some, or assume you speak Irish, and even if you lie, like in the ad, you feel ashamed. There you are, speaking to a Spaniard or a German and they speak their own tongue and speak English better than a lot of people for whom it's a first language and all you can say in Irish is "Can I go to the toilet please", or rattle off the first couple of lines of Raftery an File.

House of Blaze · 04-07-2014 02:00PM

kylith wrote: »

I can only speak for myself but the reason I am so in favour of Irish being taught in schools is because I can't speak it myself. I spent my years in school with the same opinion as the OP; it's boring, it's dead, it's no use, who cares about it anyway. And then I went abroad and found that people ask you to speak some, or assume you speak Irish, and even if you lie, like in the ad, you feel ashamed. There you are, speaking to a Spaniard or a German and they speak their own tongue and speak English better than a lot of people for whom it's a first language and all you can say in Irish is "Can I go to the toilet please", or rattle off the first couple of lines of Raftery an File.

I understand that alright, but there has been, what, a hundred years of trying to re-establish Irish for the sake of the national identity via the GAA etc?

And the fact that after 100 years there are still very very few who can speak the language or who do so on a regular basis is kind of incriminating of the Irish people in terms of showing how much they really care about it.

Also, if for example, the language had been allowed to die off, you wouldn't feel ashamed at having no use of the language today.

Scots spoke another dialect of gaelic which has essentially been allowed to die but I doubt you'd find many scots who are ashamed of the fact.

partyguinness · 04-07-2014 02:06PM

House of Blaze wrote: »

I understand that alright, but there has been, what, a hundred years of trying to re-establish Irish for the sake of the national identity via the GAA etc?

And the fact that after 100 years there are still very very few who can speak the language or who do so on a regular basis is kind of incriminating of the Irish people in terms of showing how much they really care about it.

Also, if for example, the language had been allowed to die off, you wouldn't feel ashamed at having no use of the language today.

Scots spoke another dialect of gaelic which has essentially been allowed to die but I doubt you'd find many scots who are ashamed of the fact.

To be fair the Scots are very hazy when it comes to their own identity....they have the chance to vote for independence in September and guaranteed they will turn it down.

But yes, the 'failure' of the Irish languange to thrive or seriously take hold is solely down to the Irish themselves.

Ficheall · 04-07-2014 02:09PM

House of Blaze wrote: »

And the fact that after 100 years there are still very very few who can speak the language or who do so on a regular basis is kind of incriminating of the Irish people in terms of showing how much they really care about it.

Perhaps people's main reason for not speaking the language is that they can't? Poor teaching and a negative attitude seem to be the main barriers to Irish succeeding as a language. If we had better teaching and a better attitude, the language would be fine.

Grayson · 04-07-2014 02:11PM

TGJD wrote: »

Seriously this again? It's not a difficult language. We learn it from primary school making it an easy way to get points on the lc. If you spent less time bitching about it and more time making an effort to learn then it wouldnt be so tough for you. The underlying problem is people making excuses for not being good at something to make themselves feel like its ok. I dont understand why people get so angry about irish. Its a language ffs.

Are you saying that people who can't speak it are stupid or lazy?

Everyone went through the same crappy education. Most people can speak french better than irish when they leave school. there are people who get great results in their most LC subjects who still can't speak it. It's got nothing to do with effort or intelligence, it's the simple fact that it's being taught incorrectly.

I'm actually in favour of it up to junior cert. but if we can't teach it to students by then, I say we should just give up. It is literally a waste of time.

shane7218 · 04-07-2014 02:11PM

BizzyC wrote: »

No you can't.

Every computer degree I've ever seen required a science subject in the LC.
Is it wrong that they force you to study something like biology when that has nothing to do with computers?

In the end it's the 3rd level institutions that determine which LC subjects are important for the students they're willing to take on.
If you don't like what they expect of you, go to a different institution.

That is an entry requirement for a specific course. The Irish requirement is applied by the Dept of Education so that is totally different. Point is If I want to do languages in college I can CHOOSE not to do science but same cant be said If I want to do a science course

timetogo · 04-07-2014 02:15PM

kylith wrote: »

I can only speak for myself but the reason I am so in favour of Irish being taught in schools is because I can't speak it myself. I spent my years in school with the same opinion as the OP; it's boring, it's dead, it's no use, who cares about it anyway. And then I went abroad and found that people ask you to speak some, or assume you speak Irish, and even if you lie, like in the ad, you feel ashamed. There you are, speaking to a Spaniard or a German and they speak their own tongue and speak English better than a lot of people for whom it's a first language and all you can say in Irish is "Can I go to the toilet please", or rattle off the first couple of lines of Raftery an File.

Saying "Can I go to the toilet please" is enough for the foreigner to hear. They hardly want a full length conversation in a language they don't understand.
I did my Leaving 20 years ago. That's all I can say in Irish now and I've never had the opportunity to need it more (except the odd time I get a leaflet from the ESB and half of it is printed in Irish and I've opened the wrong end).

I've no problem with Irish being taught in schools. But it should be an option. I spent years learning poetry and novels in Irish when I could barely string a sentence together (I'd hope it's not taught like that anymore).

shane7218 · 04-07-2014 02:15PM

partyguinness wrote: »

OP clearly has a very negative attitude toward Irish in actively seeking to 'kill Irish' as opposed to letting it sink or swim without mandatory teaching. That is fine, but not very good at making his/her points.

I am a little shocked that s/he may first class degree with some of the points (in the very liberal sense of the word) and language used to date...:eek:

So your saying I don't appear smart enough to deserve a first class honors? Have you ever seen me work? Or are you basing your entire opinion on the language used on this thread. If so then that is pretty pathetic

partyguinness · 04-07-2014 02:15PM

A more serious issue facing the Irish educational system is the stranglehold of the Catholic Church and the amount of time wasted on religion especially at primary level. Now that is a waste of time.

The Church needs to be kicked out first. Yes a different debate.

shane7218 · 04-07-2014 02:18PM

partyguinness wrote: »

A more serious issue facing the Irish educational system is the stranglehold of the Catholic Church and the amount of time wasted on religion especially at primary level. Now that is a waste of time.

The Church needs to be kicked out first. Yes a different debate.

As an atheist I totally agree with you on this.

Can we kill Irish once and for all

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