Handicap cut 2 extra strokes

GreeBo · 29-06-2014 11:02PM

newuser89 wrote: »

No they where my first 3 rounds in 5 years
3 months on I'm playing well
Please keep up

Be civil please or don't post here again.

newuser89 · 29-06-2014 11:07PM

GreeBo wrote: »

Be civil please or don't post here again.

The previous comment implied I didn't play my best on purpose in order to get a higher handicap.
I took offence to that
Surely his post was the problem

GreeBo · 30-06-2014 08:39AM

newuser89 wrote: »

The previous comment implied I didn't play my best on purpose in order to get a higher handicap.
I took offence to that
Surely his post was the problem

Yellow card for arguing on thread with a moderator.

If you have a problem with a post, report it.

pastense · 30-06-2014 08:53AM

GreeBo wrote: »

Yellow card for arguing on thread with a moderator.

If you have a problem with a post, report it.

This whole handicap thing has the game in an awful mess, every player is now under suspicion of 'not trying' in order to build an advantage and every player who has a lucky exceptional day is open to accusations.

newuser89 · 30-06-2014 08:56AM

GreeBo wrote: »

Yellow card for arguing on thread with a moderator.

If you have a problem with a post, report it.

Do you think I care if I'm on this site or not
I'm sick of moderators like yourself treating everyone like there kids.
Every section I use has the likes of yourself talking down to grown adults.
It's ruining this site and It's on a downward spiral from it.
Someone came into a tread I started and accused me of playing bad on purpose,and I told him to keep up,if he read the tread from the start he would see all the information and he had no business accusing me of this.
His post was the problem not mine.
So I'm questioning how you go about modding because you got this all wrong.
Do what you want with the account because this site is gone beyond repair

GreeBo · 30-06-2014 09:21AM

newuser89 wrote: »

Do you think I care if I'm on this site or not
I'm sick of moderators like yourself treating everyone like there kids.
Every section I use has the likes of yourself talking down to grown adults.
It's ruining this site and It's on a downward spiral from it.
Someone came into a tread I started and accused me of playing bad on purpose,and I told him to keep up,if he read the tread from the start he would see all the information and he had no business accusing me of this.
His post was the problem not mine.
So I'm questioning how you go about modding because you got this all wrong.
Do what you want with the account because this site is gone beyond repair

Banned.

Russman · 30-06-2014 09:38AM

pastense wrote: »

This whole handicap thing has the game in an awful mess, every player is now under suspicion of 'not trying' in order to build an advantage and every player who has a lucky exceptional day is open to accusations.

Totally agree. The authorities, in their enthusiasm, seem to default to the position that anyone who wins is a bandit, and IMO this attitude has worked its way into the general golfing populace. Maybe its an outlet for good old Irish begrudgery, I dunno.

Golf is a hard sport to play well, sometimes we do, sometimes we don't, mostly we don't. Every competition has to have a winner, is it right that that person is automatically assumed to be a bandit ? If that individual didn't win, someone else would have, and the finger is pointed at them etc etc. Of course there are some bandits, but very, very few "real" ones IMO.
And, to link back to the thread and ESR, any genuine bandit will not get caught by ESR as they'll make sure not to go better than 4 shots over CSS. Its a blunt instrument that doesn't catch its intended targets, ie handicap cheats. For fast improving juniors and those eager to get down quick, its a godsend, for a mid handicapper who has 2 freak rounds its a joke.

m r c · 30-06-2014 09:57AM

Russman I wouldn't call it a joke though, I think people need to take the attitude that they've earned their cut and not behave like victims when they get an esr.
Hats off to anyone who gets an esr in my opinion.

GreeBo · 30-06-2014 09:59AM

Russman wrote: »

Totally agree. The authorities, in their enthusiasm, seem to default to the position that anyone who wins is a bandit, and IMO this attitude has worked its way into the general golfing populace. Maybe its an outlet for good old Irish begrudgery, I dunno.

Golf is a hard sport to play well, sometimes we do, sometimes we don't, mostly we don't. Every competition has to have a winner, is it right that that person is automatically assumed to be a bandit ? If that individual didn't win, someone else would have, and the finger is pointed at them etc etc. Of course there are some bandits, but very, very few "real" ones IMO.
And, to link back to the thread and ESR, any genuine bandit will not get caught by ESR as they'll make sure not to go better than 4 shots over CSS. Its a blunt instrument that doesn't catch its intended targets, ie handicap cheats. For fast improving juniors and those eager to get down quick, its a godsend, for a mid handicapper who has 2 freak rounds its a joke.

I dont think the authorities are trying to combat or accuse anyone of being a bandit?
ESR is nothing to do with winning or not, purely about beating CSS, repeatedly.

2 Freak rounds wont really do much, unless you have 2 freak rounds within 4 rounds. Beating CSS by more than 4 50% of the time out of your last 5 rounds isnt a freak imo. Even then you just get cut by 1 extra shot.

The only times you get cut more than 1 are:
1) Beating CSS by between 5.5 and 9.5 twice within 4 round. (-2)
2) Beating CSS by more than 10 twice within 4 rounds (-3)
3) Beating CSS by more than 10 twice within 10 rounds. (-2)

I dont think that would happen and a player not be on a run of form or have improved their ability significantly.

4 or less 5 to 9 10 or more

-4.0 to -5.0 1 stroke 0.5 stroke No Change
-5.5 to -9.5 2 strokes 1 stroke 0.5 stroke
-10 or better 3 strokes 2 strokes 2 strokes

shane 007 · 30-06-2014 10:41AM

Completely agree. I was 18 only a month ago. Got down to 16 & then 14.5, followed by a ESR cut of 2.0. I was generally hitting playing to 12 over gross so in my case the ESR brought me to my level quicker than competition cuts & rightly so.

I don't think I received any comments of being accused of being a bandit, just congratulatory comments. Going by my last year's abysmal scoring until I got lessons, I could not have been accused of intentional misuse of the system.

I'm delighted & proud of where I got to. It just makes my next year's goal to single figures with a bit more dedication & hard work requirement.

pastense · 30-06-2014 11:16AM

I agree that the ESR cut is a welcome thing to anybody who has improved their game and are actually trying to play their best golf when they compete.
The ESR cut will never be experienced by a 'bandit' who will never put himself in that position.

So, in my opinion, to level a charge of dodgy dealing on somebody who has been cut under the ESR is hardly fair, and to then chastise that person for objecting to the charge is summary justice indeed.

The unfortunate fact is that the handicap system is designed to regulate honest golfers and no system could ever take account of cheats who set out to take advantage.

SnowDrifts · 30-06-2014 11:18AM

Russman wrote: »

And, to link back to the thread and ESR, any genuine bandit will not get caught by ESR as they'll make sure not to go better than 4 shots over CSS.

But generally, if they don't beat the CSS by 4, they won't win and winning in big events is what they want and do.

I do get the argument that sometimes 2 freak rounds can result in massive cuts but what is the greater good? I'll try and be careful on here with details but there are two recent examples of ESR cuts that I know of that spring to mind...

1) The first guy was a genuine player who would average in the buffer zone and every now and then would feature in the top 10. He had two freak rounds in the 40s and with the resulting ESR lost 6 shots.
He will probably struggle for a year but the field will be protected in case he actually was going to keep winning and his handicap was not representative.

2) This guy is simply the biggest bandit I have ever come across. He will win only big events and then go on a massive .1 trail. Again, he had two consecutive rounds for the one event beating the CSS by a huge amount on both occasions. He also lost 6 shots.
He is already well on his way for his .1 trail but for the next year or so, the field will be protected.

Yes, in the first example, the guy will struggle until he acclimatises. But the greater good is that the bandit will take that little bit longer before he wins his next big event so the field will be protected from his cheating for the next year or two.

Russman · 30-06-2014 11:45AM

SnowDrifts wrote: »

But generally, if they don't beat the CSS by 4, they won't win and winning in big events is what they want and do.

I do get the argument that sometimes 2 freak rounds can result in massive cuts but what is the greater good? I'll try and be careful on here with details but there are two recent examples of ESR cuts that I know of that spring to mind...

1) The first guy was a genuine player who would average in the buffer zone and every now and then would feature in the top 10. He had two freak rounds in the 40s and with the resulting ESR lost 6 shots.
He will probably struggle for a year but the field will be protected in case he actually was going to keep winning and his handicap was not representative.

2) This guy is simply the biggest bandit I have ever come across. He will win only big events and then go on a massive .1 trail. Again, he had two consecutive rounds for the one event beating the CSS by a huge amount on both occasions. He also lost 6 shots.
He is already well on his way for his .1 trail but for the next year or so, the field will be protected.

Yes, in the first example, the guy will struggle until he acclimatises. But the greater good is that the bandit will take that little bit longer before he wins his next big event so the field will be protected from his cheating for the next year or two.

I can see that point, and generally would agree with the thrust of it, but not sure about this notion of the greater good. Is the greater good served by the first guy being put in a position where it could be years before he's handicapped at what would, I assume would likely be his "fair" handicap from what you've said ?
We may be talking about the same guy, but I know one case where a 14/15 h/capper was cut to 8 (I think, might have been 6, can't remember), after doing 2 scores, months apart, but by chance he only had a couple of qualifying scores in the interim. And, he's not a bandit, rarely/never wins anything or figures, just regular weekend golfer who had 2 freak scores. He stopped enjoying his golf as a result, not because he wanted to "win", but because he had little or no chance of competing, even within his regular 4 ball.

I think additional cuts for singles comps are madness, the CSS mechanism takes care of it well enough IMO. I've no issue with a guy winning team events and 4 balls all round him, a mechanism could be devised for that, but I don't think ESR is the answer.

Russman · 30-06-2014 11:53AM

GreeBo wrote: »

ESR is nothing to do with winning or not, purely about beating CSS, repeatedly.

I dont think that would happen and a player not be on a run of form or have improved their ability significantly.

Yes, I know ESR is for beating CSS, but that's what the CSS mechanism is there for, the cuts happen automatically. I don't see a need for an additional system to cut people again. Rightly or wrongly its viewed as a punishment.

It does happen and I've seen it happen. In the example in my post above, I know the guy and he's never in a million years a single figure golfer. Mid 60s, doesn't really care whether he wins or not, hardly ever figures, just has his weekly game with his buddies, certainly has no interest in "improving" per se, or practising etc., he genuinely just had two freak rounds, months apart but by chance didn't have enough singles cards in between to nullify the first. I think, he got the shots back on appeal though IIRC.

Anyone know why is ESR mandatory for Ireland though and not the other CONGU regions (I think that's still the case) ? I'm just not convinced its necessary.

Russman · 30-06-2014 11:58AM

m r c wrote: »

Russman I wouldn't call it a joke though, I think people need to take the attitude that they've earned their cut and not behave like victims when they get an esr.
Hats off to anyone who gets an esr in my opinion.

But they're already earned their cut by beating CSS by x number of shots etc., I just don't agree with a second cut based on arbitrary things like how many rounds between your good scores etc. At least with CSS its x number of shots times 0.2 or whatever, for a given round.

GreeBo · 30-06-2014 12:11PM

Russman wrote: »

Yes, I know ESR is for beating CSS, but that's what the CSS mechanism is there for, the cuts happen automatically. I don't see a need for an additional system to cut people again. Rightly or wrongly its viewed as a punishment.

It does happen and I've seen it happen. In the example in my post above, I know the guy and he's never in a million years a single figure golfer. Mid 60s, doesn't really care whether he wins or not, hardly ever figures, just has his weekly game with his buddies, certainly has no interest in "improving" per se, or practising etc., he genuinely just had two freak rounds, months apart but by chance didn't have enough singles cards in between to nullify the first. I think, he got the shots back on appeal though IIRC.

Anyone know why is ESR mandatory for Ireland though and not the other CONGU regions (I think that's still the case) ? I'm just not convinced its necessary.

The bit in bold doesnt sit well with me.
So he just plays and doesnt try to get any better? Has two good scores (really good scores!) but doesnt want the extra cut?
Why not? If he doesnt car if he wins or not, why does he care about get ESR cut?

GreeBo · 30-06-2014 12:12PM

Russman wrote: »

But they're already earned their cut by beating CSS by x number of shots etc., I just don't agree with a second cut based on arbitrary things like how many rounds between your good scores etc. At least with CSS its x number of shots times 0.2 or whatever, for a given round.

If you are beating CSS by 10 more than once then the 10 x 0.3 or 0.2 isnt going to be fast enough to get you cut to wher e you should be.
The OP is a case in point, ability to play to 5 but got a higher handicap. No one else stands a chance once he gets back up to speed.

Russman · 30-06-2014 12:26PM

GreeBo wrote: »

The bit in bold doesnt sit well with me.
So he just plays and doesnt try to get any better? Has two good scores (really good scores!) but doesnt want the extra cut?
Why not? If he doesnt car if he wins or not, why does he care about get ESR cut?

Yes, he just plays his golf, and his score is his score. Obviously he tries when he's playing, but he's just what I would call a normal weekend golfer who would no doubt like to be better but doesn't really have the inclination, time, whatever, to practice, take lessons etc etc. I'd say the vast majority of middle aged, weekend golfers are much the same TBH.
Its more he feels he has virtually no chance at all of being competitive off 6 or 8, even in friendly games with his mates. He doesn't care, as in he's not going to lose any sleep over it, but, like us all, I'm sure he'd like to think he has some chance each weekend, why else would we play ? I mean, its not black and white, simply telling someone to practice or to try harder doesn't always work (I know that's not what you're suggesting). IMO for a 14 handicapper to lose, we'll say 4 shots through the CSS mechanism is more than enough, without an ESR.

Russman · 30-06-2014 12:37PM

GreeBo wrote: »

If you are beating CSS by 10 more than once then the 10 x 0.3 or 0.2 isnt going to be fast enough to get you cut to wher e you should be.
The OP is a case in point, ability to play to 5 but got a higher handicap. No one else stands a chance once he gets back up to speed.

Yeah, but I think that timing gap is not really a problem, it will look after itself.
Nobody is ever going to be 100% "where they should be" - who is the judge of that ? If people can improve so dramatically, can they disimprove as quickly ?

A very extreme example, I know a guy who had 2 holes in one on the same day (there was an article in the papers about it a few years ago, its real), now you can't really suggest that his final score represents his potential ability in terms of "where he should be" with his handicap, given the freakish nature of it. It was pre ESR days, but hypothetically follow that freak round with one where he has a modest enough score on a really tough day where CSS is very high and he may be looking at an additional cut that I would say isn't justified.

I just think there's no perfect system and what we have (excl ESR) is probably as good as we'll get. No rule book can cover every variation or situation.

GreeBo · 30-06-2014 01:11PM

Russman wrote: »

Yeah, but I think that timing gap is not really a problem, it will look after itself.
Nobody is ever going to be 100% "where they should be" - who is the judge of that ? If people can improve so dramatically, can they disimprove as quickly ?

A very extreme example, I know a guy who had 2 holes in one on the same day (there was an article in the papers about it a few years ago, its real), now you can't really suggest that his final score represents his potential ability in terms of "where he should be" with his handicap, given the freakish nature of it. It was pre ESR days, but hypothetically follow that freak round with one where he has a modest enough score on a really tough day where CSS is very high and he may be looking at an additional cut that I would say isn't justified.

I just think there's no perfect system and what we have (excl ESR) is probably as good as we'll get. No rule book can cover every variation or situation.

If CSS is high and he beats it then he didnt have a "modest" round though!

Russman · 30-06-2014 01:23PM

GreeBo wrote: »

If CSS is high and he beats it then he didnt have a "modest" round though!

Well.........that's debatable. Hard to judge someone by everyone else's poor play, maybe a load of whackers played and he was the only decent one.
Ahh no, I know what you mean though, but I still think ESR is a step too far. I'd rather see the GUI clamping down on other issues like guys not returning cards and that whole scene, which in fairness, they're trying to with that motion going to CONGU.

GreeBo · 30-06-2014 02:50PM

Russman wrote: »

Well.........that's debatable. Hard to judge someone by everyone else's poor play, maybe a load of whackers played and he was the only decent one.
Ahh no, I know what you mean though, but I still think ESR is a step too far. I'd rather see the GUI clamping down on other issues like guys not returning cards and that whole scene, which in fairness, they're trying to with that motion going to CONGU.

In fairness you cant say that Vs CSS works perfectly in one post and then in the next say that it doesnt work as maybe he had a good day surrounded by a bunch of hackers...

pastense · 30-06-2014 03:12PM

Russman wrote: »

Anyone know why is ESR mandatory for Ireland though and not the other CONGU regions (I think that's still the case) ? I'm just not convinced its necessary.

I cant say I know, but I can say I suspect, that the GUI included it as a measure to address the known 'bandit' problem that exists here BUT of course it does nothing of the sort. The fact is that the 'bandits' have found a way to destroy the ethos of the game and nobody seems to be able to find a way to deal with it.
It can only be sorted by the majority who are honest (never played deliberately poorly for a point one) refusing to be cheated by those bandits who have increased their handicaps by messing around in one form or other.

I hear the latest craze is playing your best (enjoying yourself), writing down a point one score on another card and submitting the bad one for the point one.
This is all the rage in one club that I have heard about.

ssbob · 30-06-2014 03:18PM

I really don't see the debate here, for me the only thing I want to do is get better, reduce my handicap and reduce my overall gross score.

I couldn't care less about winning competitions other than the bit of banter you can have with your mates.

shane 007 · 30-06-2014 03:24PM

ssbob wrote: »

I really don't see the debate here, for me the only thing I want to do is get better, reduce my handicap and reduce my overall gross score.

I couldn't care less about winning competitions other than the bit of banter you can have with your mates.

Completely agree here but I do look rather snazzy in my new gear following spending my €150 clothes voucher from the competition sponsor

FixdePitchmark · 30-06-2014 03:56PM

ssbob wrote: »

I really don't see the debate here, for me the only thing I want to do is get better, reduce my handicap and reduce my overall gross score.

I couldn't care less about winning competitions other than the bit of banter you can have with your mates.

I'm new to all this handicap stuff and 0.1 s and css and buffer and all that lark. I think anybody who knows me, knows above is me. Just as low as I can go. It is taking me time to get me head around how it all works - I've only played 12 comps.

But , if a system is giving results in the 40s regularly- for me it is flawed and can lead to you becoming cynical about it all. I'm not saying I'm there , but can see how people get there.

I honestly think if someone gets 40 + - their handicap should be reduced with an automatic ESR - 41 (1 shot gone) 42 (2 shot gone) 43 (3 shot gone) 44( 4 shot gone) 45 (5 shot gone) etc etc.
Then there are people getting above 45 points - that is something I have just not got my little head around yet.

.
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with scoring over 40 points - but you have to use it as a key indicator of the persons ability. if somebody loses 3 shots in the 40s they are still over 36 pts.
Basically this rule would bring all the 40 pointer lads back to the field quickly - over 40 points would be seen as the exception. A guy scoring near his handicap would always be closer to the winner.

If you become cynical about it - it can go a certain way, where you go deeper into yourself , your own score , your own handicap . This means you are sort of removing yourself from the competition - you have given up on the system . Whilst people seem to get an internal pride in this. I'm a little saddened, that we are sort of giving up on golf as an idea , that we can all play each other no matter what the standard.

If a system is flawed (as an example) , like the way the Greece tax system was - people who are totally sound in every other way, adapt to their particular surroundings

I'm not saying I'm ever turning into a bandit

, but I can see how lads 100 % sound in every other part of their life succumb to the surroundings they are in.

That is why you hear people saying stuff like
" I won't have a chance off that "
" I want to be competitive"
" That is a ridiculous score"
" It will be hard for you off that handicap"

Then you have people saying - I don't give a **** about a poxy prize -

But - I'm not sure I agree with the last. There are some lads - most my friends, that if they are in a competition , say swimming , running , playing football , pool, darts , professional life, exams, anything.

Are naturally competitive - they love trying to win. A sport that they have to accept they can't win - doesn't sit easy with them.

Some of them come into golf and are totally perplexed - that "the best doesn't win" - " I always laugh and explain the beauty of it " .

Then they say after a few games - new to a society. I know society golf is not what we are talking about - but they give an interesting perspective.

" your man John - plays a good bit of golf , he hits the ball well , he seems to have a very high handicap "

PARlance · 30-06-2014 03:58PM

ESR is great IMO but the only negative I can see is when it hits some honest golfers by surprise and they struggle to cope with it mentally which results in them growing frustrated with the game.
A small sample of golfers overall and I wouldn't change ESR at all, but I would have sympathy for them.

Related Story:
My only concern is getting lower but that said, I drifted to 18 shortly after getting my initial HC of 17 last year.
While I was a bit gutted for a few days, it was contrasted against a totally unexpected feeling during my next round.
I was playing poorly and was walking to the Par 3 17th, index 18. I came across with a sudden buzz..... I have a shot here!!!!
I had about 23 points at the time with 2 holes left, a hole in one and an eagle on the last would have still meant another depressing plus 1..... But here I was buzzing because I didn't have to par for 2points!!!!!

I couldn't explain it, it's just madness.

Conversely, when I got my game together and got cut a shot towards the end of the year my next few rounds were filled with "I've no shot on index 18 now" panic.

I was relaying that story to a guy off 10 (who has been yoyo'ing between 8-12 for a long time) recently and he just couldn't believe it.
Thankfully there was another higher HC'er with us to confirm that he had this same irrational thinking.
(Maybe a good topic for another thread)

So, with that in mind, I do have sympathy with, and feel the ESR may be a little harsh, for a small group of genuine golfers who can't cope with it and get disheartened with the game.

But I still wouldn't change ESR in any way.

ssbob · 30-06-2014 04:16PM

@Fix If it was prizes I was after I would have given up the BGS a long time ago however it was a great feeling when we won the Jug back last year to be part of that.

Wanting to win is one thing, wanting to win prizes is something completely different.;)

cairny · 30-06-2014 04:23PM

ssbob wrote: »

I really don't see the debate here, for me the only thing I want to do is get better, reduce my handicap and reduce my overall gross score.

I couldn't care less about winning competitions other than the bit of banter you can have with your mates.

Was getting sucked into moaning about bandits one day in the club, one old lad says "Ah don't worry about it, your handicap is your prize". Makes perfect sense, put my mind completely at ease.

Russman · 30-06-2014 06:11PM

GreeBo wrote: »

In fairness you cant say that Vs CSS works perfectly in one post and then in the next say that it doesnt work as maybe he had a good day surrounded by a bunch of hackers...

I was being a little facetious, but I think it shows how subjective the whole thing of "what someone should be playing off" is.

Handicap cut 2 extra strokes

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