Handicap cut 2 extra strokes

newuser89

Hello
I had a score of 42 points off 12.0 handicap and got to 10.6 then I see there was a extra 2 strokes cut off to give me a new handicap of 8.6.it seems a bit excessive since I was playing off 15.4 about two weeks ago and just came into form.
My last 5 rounds have been scores of
38,37,38,40,42
And I have been steadily getting cut about a shot each round.
I feel I won't be very competive the rest of the year now that they took 2 extra off me

jukebox2310

I received a 3 stroke ESR cut last year bringing me from 11 to 6 when really I'm prob an 8 at best.
Its hard to stomach alright but no use in complaining. I find you just have to forgeet what you were off and just try to play to new handicap.

Personally I know I spent a lot of rounds thinking I used to have shots on this hole and that hole and my mind was never on the real task of just concentrating on the shot you are playing and as a result just shot crap scores.
The only bit of advive I can give is just go out and don't let your handicap dictate your mindset. Concentrate on playing each shot as best you can and you'll be amazed that you can actually play to your handicap. After numerous bad scores I have changed my mindset and now am in the buffer most times

spacecoyote

newuser89 wrote: »

Hello
I had a score of 42 points off 12.0 handicap and got to 10.6 then I see there was a extra 2 strokes cut off to give me a new handicap of 8.6.it seems a bit excessive since I was playing off 15.4 about two weeks ago and just came into form.
My last 5 rounds have been scores of
38,37,38,40,42
And I have been steadily getting cut about a shot each round.
I feel I won't be very competive the rest of the year now that they took 2 extra off me

they didn't do it to you. It's an automatic cut called an ESR (exceptional scoring reduction) if you beat par by 4 or more shots twice in a season you get an automatic extra reduction. And the closer the rounds are to each other the higher the reduction.

There was a pdf posted on here by someone before that detailed the exact way it works

newuser89

Thanks for the reply guys.
I only started back 3 months ago after 5 years away from it.
My previous lowest was 9 so I'm back there already at least

PARlance

newuser89 wrote: »

Hello
I had a score of 42 points off 12.0 handicap and got to 10.6 then I see there was a extra 2 strokes cut off to give me a new handicap of 8.6.it seems a bit excessive since I was playing off 15.4 about two weeks ago and just came into form.
My last 5 rounds have been scores of
38,37,38,40,42
And I have been steadily getting cut about a shot each round.
I feel I won't be very competive the rest of the year now that they took 2 extra off me

Congrats on the cuts.
You just shot +6 off 12 to get you 42 points.
If you shot the same round of your new handicap you still get 39 points... What exactly do you mean by competitive? You've proven you can better 9 already.

You got cut due to ESR. It's generally 1 shot but if you scores are "more exceptional" then it increases.

newuser89

PARlance wrote: »

Congrats on the cuts.
You just shot +6 off 12 to get you 42 points.
If you shot the same round of your new handicap you still get 39 points... What exactly do you mean by competitive? You've proven you can better 9 already.

You got cut due to ESR. It's generally 1 shot but if you scores are "more exceptional" then it increases.

It's the first time I ever shot that round and it should have been better as I had 3 points on last 3 holes.but it's been sunny no wind and the rough is cut back.i won't be competitive when the real weather starts again

PARlance

newuser89 wrote: »

Thanks for the reply guys.
I only started back 3 months ago after 5 years away from it.
My previous lowest was 9 so I'm back there already at least

What HC did you get 3 months ago?

newuser89

PARlance wrote: »

What HC did you get 3 months ago?

16 as I had to hand in 3 cards the best was 23 over par.
It's only the last 2 weeks I've actually started playing well

SnowDrifts

I'd be delighted to get an ESR. I tend not to entertain people who complain about getting cut by an ESR. You got it for a reason.

Here is the link showing how it's applied http://www.cgc-ni.com/uploads/CONGU%20ESR.pdf

newuser89

SnowDrifts wrote: »

I'd be delighted to get an ESR. I tend not to entertain people who complain about getting cut by an ESR. You got it for a reason.

Here is the link to how it works http://www.cgc-ni.com/uploads/CONGU%20ESR.pdf

Look if I was beating everyone in my club by loads of points I know I deserve it
But I came 3rd with 40 and 2nd with 42 so with the additional cut I got a don't know how I can get near them scores to compete in future

FixdePitchmark

newuser89 wrote: »

Hello
I had a score of 42 points off 12.0 handicap and got to 10.6 then I see there was a extra 2 strokes cut off to give me a new handicap of 8.6.it seems a bit excessive since I was playing off 15.4 about two weeks ago and just came into form.
My last 5 rounds have been scores of
38,37,38,40,42
And I have been steadily getting cut about a shot each round.
I feel I won't be very competive the rest of the year now that they took 2 extra off me

Well done getting back so quick - great achievement.


I think you are only meant to hit 36 about 1 in 4 - so clearly your handicap is wrong.


It is not about being competitive - it is about being at the right handicap.


Clearly if someone has over 40 twice their handicap is way off.

PARlance

Yes, at least most of the field you will be playing against is now competitive.

FixdePitchmark

New User

Most of the lads on here have a sequence of 28 , 32, 38, 25, 31 pts

How competitive do you think they feel against you?

newuser89

Everything you guys have said is right.
I think I have just been spoiled I suppose the last while as I knew I had a workable handicap and now I'm back where I was.
I think I will just concentrate on playing the golf course and nothing else. Forget the handicap and think of par on every hole and see where I end up

PARlance

newuser89 wrote: »

Look if I was beating everyone in my club by loads of points I know I deserve it
But I came 3rd with 40 and 2nd with 42 so with the additional cut I got a don't know how I can get near them scores to compete in future

This gets better.....
How many players in each comp?
Ask yourself how many came in the top 3 twice.
Ask yourself is it a bit silly to be complaining about getting back to 9 after shooting a +6, said it should/could have been +3.

Well done on getting back to your previous HC but can't commend the attitude.

I'm not a big fan of ESR in the case of a genuine guy who is looking to improve (rather than looking to be competitive) as it can sometimes be a cut too far after 2 freakishly good rounds.... But that's certainly not the case here.

Edit: that was some turn around

Macker1

newuser89 wrote: »

Hello
I had a score of 42 points off 12.0 handicap and got to 10.6 then I see there was a extra 2 strokes cut off to give me a new handicap of 8.6.it seems a bit excessive since I was playing off 15.4 about two weeks ago and just came into form.
My last 5 rounds have been scores of
38,37,38,40,42
And I have been steadily getting cut about a shot each round.
I feel I won't be very competive the rest of the year now that they took 2 extra off me

Well done on very good consistent scoring. Getting an ESR is something to be happy about and should be looked upon as a reward for playing very well.

m r c

newuser89 wrote: »

Hello
I had a score of 42 points off 12.0 handicap and got to 10.6 then I see there was a extra 2 strokes cut off to give me a new handicap of 8.6.it seems a bit excessive since I was playing off 15.4 about two weeks ago and just came into form.
My last 5 rounds have been scores of
38,37,38,40,42
And I have been steadily getting cut about a shot each round.
I feel I won't be very competive the rest of the year now that they took 2 extra off me

I'd love to have your "problem" congrats on the great play.

FixdePitchmark

I feel - I need to be a bit more competitive next season. I'm running out of a right handed gloves - extra distance Ultras and umbrellas.

I'll have to think of a way


Luis Suarez like competitive next year.

m r c

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I feel - I need to be a bit more competitive next season. I'm running out of a right handed glove - extra distance Ultras and umbrellas.

I'll have to think of a way

Cheeky!!!

ForeRight

Play the game to be as low a handicap as your ability will get you and let the competitiveness look after itself.

I wouldn't be worried about not being able to shoot 40+ points off your new handicap. If I was you I'd be delighted to be down to 5 or so and shooting 36 pointers pretty regular and then try take the next step to drop another stroke.

GreeBo

newuser89 wrote: »

Look if I was beating everyone in my club by loads of points I know I deserve it
But I came 3rd with 40 and 2nd with 42 so with the additional cut I got a don't know how I can get near them scores to compete in future

Its nothing to do with beating everyone else, its about beating CSS....repeatedly...by lots.

Dealerz

GreeBo wrote: »

Its nothing to do with beating everyone else, its about beating CSS....repeatedly...by lots.

^exactly! This is the key point and why esr is a great idea.

newuser89

If I shot 40 points next time out would I get another esr

SnowDrifts

newuser89 wrote: »

If I shot 40 points next time out would I get another esr

I think so... provided you have a net differential of -4 again.

From the link I posted above...

When a player returns a Qualifying Score with a Nett Differential of -4, or below, in a calendar year this triggers the ESR algorithm, setting an initial marker. An ESR calculation will be initiated the next time a Nett Differential of -4 or lower is returned by the player. This second Qualifying Score will also set a new trigger for any subsequent return of another low score when the count within the ESR process would be repeated.

superhooper

newuser89 wrote: »

If I shot 40 points next time out would I get another esr

Let that be your goal!! I'd love that problem. I'd love to score over 30 points!!!

Kace

I have had exceptional scoring handicap adjustments in both directions in the past couple of years. Believe me - the reductions are a lot more satisfying than the increases ;-)

whitefoot

Kace wrote: »

I have had exceptional scoring handicap adjustments in both directions in the past couple of years. ;-)

ESR is an software based automatic handicap reduction only. Are you suggesting you had an automatic handicap increase larger than 0.1 actual? Please elaborate.

newuser89

Played 2 competitions since the cut and had 28 points and 75 nett on par 70.
I'm definitely capable off this handicap .
I had a 9 on a par 5 and two triple bogeys.silly mistakes.
I did see the club handicap secretary and he was asking me if I wanted him to try get 1 of the shots back but I told him I'm happy where I am.

bobwilliams

newuser89 wrote: »

Thanks for the reply guys.
I only started back 3 months ago after 5 years away from it.
My previous lowest was 9 so I'm back there already at least

and let me guess you just played brutal on the 3 cards ...yeah??:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

newuser89

bobwilliams wrote: »

and let me guess you just played brutal on the 3 cards ...yeah??:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

No they where my first 3 rounds in 5 years
3 months on I'm playing well
Please keep up

bobwilliams

newuser89 wrote: »

No they where my first 3 rounds in 5 years
3 months on I'm playing well
Please keep up

I've no problem keeping up I just don't think you're being honest here,no round at all in 5 years?

GreeBo

newuser89 wrote: »

No they where my first 3 rounds in 5 years
3 months on I'm playing well
Please keep up

Be civil please or don't post here again.

newuser89

GreeBo wrote: »

Be civil please or don't post here again.

The previous comment implied I didn't play my best on purpose in order to get a higher handicap.
I took offence to that
Surely his post was the problem

GreeBo

newuser89 wrote: »

The previous comment implied I didn't play my best on purpose in order to get a higher handicap.
I took offence to that
Surely his post was the problem

Yellow card for arguing on thread with a moderator.

If you have a problem with a post, report it.

pastense

GreeBo wrote: »

Yellow card for arguing on thread with a moderator.

If you have a problem with a post, report it.

This whole handicap thing has the game in an awful mess, every player is now under suspicion of 'not trying' in order to build an advantage and every player who has a lucky exceptional day is open to accusations.

newuser89

GreeBo wrote: »

Yellow card for arguing on thread with a moderator.

If you have a problem with a post, report it.

Do you think I care if I'm on this site or not
I'm sick of moderators like yourself treating everyone like there kids.
Every section I use has the likes of yourself talking down to grown adults.
It's ruining this site and It's on a downward spiral from it.
Someone came into a tread I started and accused me of playing bad on purpose,and I told him to keep up,if he read the tread from the start he would see all the information and he had no business accusing me of this.
His post was the problem not mine.
So I'm questioning how you go about modding because you got this all wrong.
Do what you want with the account because this site is gone beyond repair

GreeBo

newuser89 wrote: »

Do you think I care if I'm on this site or not
I'm sick of moderators like yourself treating everyone like there kids.
Every section I use has the likes of yourself talking down to grown adults.
It's ruining this site and It's on a downward spiral from it.
Someone came into a tread I started and accused me of playing bad on purpose,and I told him to keep up,if he read the tread from the start he would see all the information and he had no business accusing me of this.
His post was the problem not mine.
So I'm questioning how you go about modding because you got this all wrong.
Do what you want with the account because this site is gone beyond repair

Banned.

Russman

pastense wrote: »

This whole handicap thing has the game in an awful mess, every player is now under suspicion of 'not trying' in order to build an advantage and every player who has a lucky exceptional day is open to accusations.

Totally agree. The authorities, in their enthusiasm, seem to default to the position that anyone who wins is a bandit, and IMO this attitude has worked its way into the general golfing populace. Maybe its an outlet for good old Irish begrudgery, I dunno.

Golf is a hard sport to play well, sometimes we do, sometimes we don't, mostly we don't. Every competition has to have a winner, is it right that that person is automatically assumed to be a bandit ? If that individual didn't win, someone else would have, and the finger is pointed at them etc etc. Of course there are some bandits, but very, very few "real" ones IMO.
And, to link back to the thread and ESR, any genuine bandit will not get caught by ESR as they'll make sure not to go better than 4 shots over CSS. Its a blunt instrument that doesn't catch its intended targets, ie handicap cheats. For fast improving juniors and those eager to get down quick, its a godsend, for a mid handicapper who has 2 freak rounds its a joke.

m r c

Russman I wouldn't call it a joke though, I think people need to take the attitude that they've earned their cut and not behave like victims when they get an esr.
Hats off to anyone who gets an esr in my opinion.

GreeBo

Russman wrote: »

Totally agree. The authorities, in their enthusiasm, seem to default to the position that anyone who wins is a bandit, and IMO this attitude has worked its way into the general golfing populace. Maybe its an outlet for good old Irish begrudgery, I dunno.

Golf is a hard sport to play well, sometimes we do, sometimes we don't, mostly we don't. Every competition has to have a winner, is it right that that person is automatically assumed to be a bandit ? If that individual didn't win, someone else would have, and the finger is pointed at them etc etc. Of course there are some bandits, but very, very few "real" ones IMO.
And, to link back to the thread and ESR, any genuine bandit will not get caught by ESR as they'll make sure not to go better than 4 shots over CSS. Its a blunt instrument that doesn't catch its intended targets, ie handicap cheats. For fast improving juniors and those eager to get down quick, its a godsend, for a mid handicapper who has 2 freak rounds its a joke.

I dont think the authorities are trying to combat or accuse anyone of being a bandit?
ESR is nothing to do with winning or not, purely about beating CSS, repeatedly.

2 Freak rounds wont really do much, unless you have 2 freak rounds within 4 rounds. Beating CSS by more than 4 50% of the time out of your last 5 rounds isnt a freak imo. Even then you just get cut by 1 extra shot.

The only times you get cut more than 1 are:
1) Beating CSS by between 5.5 and 9.5 twice within 4 round. (-2)
2) Beating CSS by more than 10 twice within 4 rounds (-3)
3) Beating CSS by more than 10 twice within 10 rounds. (-2)

I dont think that would happen and a player not be on a run of form or have improved their ability significantly.

4 or less 5 to 9 10 or more

-4.0 to -5.0 1 stroke 0.5 stroke No Change
-5.5 to -9.5 2 strokes 1 stroke 0.5 stroke
-10 or better 3 strokes 2 strokes 2 strokes

shane 007

Completely agree. I was 18 only a month ago. Got down to 16 & then 14.5, followed by a ESR cut of 2.0. I was generally hitting playing to 12 over gross so in my case the ESR brought me to my level quicker than competition cuts & rightly so.

I don't think I received any comments of being accused of being a bandit, just congratulatory comments. Going by my last year's abysmal scoring until I got lessons, I could not have been accused of intentional misuse of the system.

I'm delighted & proud of where I got to. It just makes my next year's goal to single figures with a bit more dedication & hard work requirement.

pastense

I agree that the ESR cut is a welcome thing to anybody who has improved their game and are actually trying to play their best golf when they compete.
The ESR cut will never be experienced by a 'bandit' who will never put himself in that position.

So, in my opinion, to level a charge of dodgy dealing on somebody who has been cut under the ESR is hardly fair, and to then chastise that person for objecting to the charge is summary justice indeed.

The unfortunate fact is that the handicap system is designed to regulate honest golfers and no system could ever take account of cheats who set out to take advantage.

SnowDrifts

Russman wrote: »

And, to link back to the thread and ESR, any genuine bandit will not get caught by ESR as they'll make sure not to go better than 4 shots over CSS.

But generally, if they don't beat the CSS by 4, they won't win and winning in big events is what they want and do.

I do get the argument that sometimes 2 freak rounds can result in massive cuts but what is the greater good? I'll try and be careful on here with details but there are two recent examples of ESR cuts that I know of that spring to mind...

1) The first guy was a genuine player who would average in the buffer zone and every now and then would feature in the top 10. He had two freak rounds in the 40s and with the resulting ESR lost 6 shots.
He will probably struggle for a year but the field will be protected in case he actually was going to keep winning and his handicap was not representative.

2) This guy is simply the biggest bandit I have ever come across. He will win only big events and then go on a massive .1 trail. Again, he had two consecutive rounds for the one event beating the CSS by a huge amount on both occasions. He also lost 6 shots.
He is already well on his way for his .1 trail but for the next year or so, the field will be protected.

Yes, in the first example, the guy will struggle until he acclimatises. But the greater good is that the bandit will take that little bit longer before he wins his next big event so the field will be protected from his cheating for the next year or two.

Russman

SnowDrifts wrote: »

But generally, if they don't beat the CSS by 4, they won't win and winning in big events is what they want and do.

I do get the argument that sometimes 2 freak rounds can result in massive cuts but what is the greater good? I'll try and be careful on here with details but there are two recent examples of ESR cuts that I know of that spring to mind...

1) The first guy was a genuine player who would average in the buffer zone and every now and then would feature in the top 10. He had two freak rounds in the 40s and with the resulting ESR lost 6 shots.
He will probably struggle for a year but the field will be protected in case he actually was going to keep winning and his handicap was not representative.

2) This guy is simply the biggest bandit I have ever come across. He will win only big events and then go on a massive .1 trail. Again, he had two consecutive rounds for the one event beating the CSS by a huge amount on both occasions. He also lost 6 shots.
He is already well on his way for his .1 trail but for the next year or so, the field will be protected.

Yes, in the first example, the guy will struggle until he acclimatises. But the greater good is that the bandit will take that little bit longer before he wins his next big event so the field will be protected from his cheating for the next year or two.

I can see that point, and generally would agree with the thrust of it, but not sure about this notion of the greater good. Is the greater good served by the first guy being put in a position where it could be years before he's handicapped at what would, I assume would likely be his "fair" handicap from what you've said ?
We may be talking about the same guy, but I know one case where a 14/15 h/capper was cut to 8 (I think, might have been 6, can't remember), after doing 2 scores, months apart, but by chance he only had a couple of qualifying scores in the interim. And, he's not a bandit, rarely/never wins anything or figures, just regular weekend golfer who had 2 freak scores. He stopped enjoying his golf as a result, not because he wanted to "win", but because he had little or no chance of competing, even within his regular 4 ball.

I think additional cuts for singles comps are madness, the CSS mechanism takes care of it well enough IMO. I've no issue with a guy winning team events and 4 balls all round him, a mechanism could be devised for that, but I don't think ESR is the answer.

Russman

GreeBo wrote: »

ESR is nothing to do with winning or not, purely about beating CSS, repeatedly.

I dont think that would happen and a player not be on a run of form or have improved their ability significantly.

Yes, I know ESR is for beating CSS, but that's what the CSS mechanism is there for, the cuts happen automatically. I don't see a need for an additional system to cut people again. Rightly or wrongly its viewed as a punishment.

It does happen and I've seen it happen. In the example in my post above, I know the guy and he's never in a million years a single figure golfer. Mid 60s, doesn't really care whether he wins or not, hardly ever figures, just has his weekly game with his buddies, certainly has no interest in "improving" per se, or practising etc., he genuinely just had two freak rounds, months apart but by chance didn't have enough singles cards in between to nullify the first. I think, he got the shots back on appeal though IIRC.

Anyone know why is ESR mandatory for Ireland though and not the other CONGU regions (I think that's still the case) ? I'm just not convinced its necessary.

Russman

m r c wrote: »

Russman I wouldn't call it a joke though, I think people need to take the attitude that they've earned their cut and not behave like victims when they get an esr.
Hats off to anyone who gets an esr in my opinion.

But they're already earned their cut by beating CSS by x number of shots etc., I just don't agree with a second cut based on arbitrary things like how many rounds between your good scores etc. At least with CSS its x number of shots times 0.2 or whatever, for a given round.

GreeBo

Russman wrote: »

Yes, I know ESR is for beating CSS, but that's what the CSS mechanism is there for, the cuts happen automatically. I don't see a need for an additional system to cut people again. Rightly or wrongly its viewed as a punishment.

It does happen and I've seen it happen. In the example in my post above, I know the guy and he's never in a million years a single figure golfer. Mid 60s, doesn't really care whether he wins or not, hardly ever figures, just has his weekly game with his buddies, certainly has no interest in "improving" per se, or practising etc., he genuinely just had two freak rounds, months apart but by chance didn't have enough singles cards in between to nullify the first. I think, he got the shots back on appeal though IIRC.

Anyone know why is ESR mandatory for Ireland though and not the other CONGU regions (I think that's still the case) ? I'm just not convinced its necessary.

The bit in bold doesnt sit well with me.
So he just plays and doesnt try to get any better? Has two good scores (really good scores!) but doesnt want the extra cut?
Why not? If he doesnt car if he wins or not, why does he care about get ESR cut?

GreeBo

Russman wrote: »

But they're already earned their cut by beating CSS by x number of shots etc., I just don't agree with a second cut based on arbitrary things like how many rounds between your good scores etc. At least with CSS its x number of shots times 0.2 or whatever, for a given round.

If you are beating CSS by 10 more than once then the 10 x 0.3 or 0.2 isnt going to be fast enough to get you cut to wher e you should be.
The OP is a case in point, ability to play to 5 but got a higher handicap. No one else stands a chance once he gets back up to speed.

Russman

GreeBo wrote: »

The bit in bold doesnt sit well with me.
So he just plays and doesnt try to get any better? Has two good scores (really good scores!) but doesnt want the extra cut?
Why not? If he doesnt car if he wins or not, why does he care about get ESR cut?

Yes, he just plays his golf, and his score is his score. Obviously he tries when he's playing, but he's just what I would call a normal weekend golfer who would no doubt like to be better but doesn't really have the inclination, time, whatever, to practice, take lessons etc etc. I'd say the vast majority of middle aged, weekend golfers are much the same TBH.
Its more he feels he has virtually no chance at all of being competitive off 6 or 8, even in friendly games with his mates. He doesn't care, as in he's not going to lose any sleep over it, but, like us all, I'm sure he'd like to think he has some chance each weekend, why else would we play ? I mean, its not black and white, simply telling someone to practice or to try harder doesn't always work (I know that's not what you're suggesting). IMO for a 14 handicapper to lose, we'll say 4 shots through the CSS mechanism is more than enough, without an ESR.

Russman

GreeBo wrote: »

If you are beating CSS by 10 more than once then the 10 x 0.3 or 0.2 isnt going to be fast enough to get you cut to wher e you should be.
The OP is a case in point, ability to play to 5 but got a higher handicap. No one else stands a chance once he gets back up to speed.

Yeah, but I think that timing gap is not really a problem, it will look after itself.
Nobody is ever going to be 100% "where they should be" - who is the judge of that ? If people can improve so dramatically, can they disimprove as quickly ?

A very extreme example, I know a guy who had 2 holes in one on the same day (there was an article in the papers about it a few years ago, its real), now you can't really suggest that his final score represents his potential ability in terms of "where he should be" with his handicap, given the freakish nature of it. It was pre ESR days, but hypothetically follow that freak round with one where he has a modest enough score on a really tough day where CSS is very high and he may be looking at an additional cut that I would say isn't justified.

I just think there's no perfect system and what we have (excl ESR) is probably as good as we'll get. No rule book can cover every variation or situation.

GreeBo

Russman wrote: »

Yeah, but I think that timing gap is not really a problem, it will look after itself.
Nobody is ever going to be 100% "where they should be" - who is the judge of that ? If people can improve so dramatically, can they disimprove as quickly ?

A very extreme example, I know a guy who had 2 holes in one on the same day (there was an article in the papers about it a few years ago, its real), now you can't really suggest that his final score represents his potential ability in terms of "where he should be" with his handicap, given the freakish nature of it. It was pre ESR days, but hypothetically follow that freak round with one where he has a modest enough score on a really tough day where CSS is very high and he may be looking at an additional cut that I would say isn't justified.

I just think there's no perfect system and what we have (excl ESR) is probably as good as we'll get. No rule book can cover every variation or situation.

If CSS is high and he beats it then he didnt have a "modest" round though!