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Handicap cut 2 extra strokes

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,000 ✭✭✭Russman


    cairny wrote: »
    Was getting sucked into moaning about bandits one day in the club, one old lad says "Ah don't worry about it, your handicap is your prize". Makes perfect sense, put my mind completely at ease.

    Couldn't agree more. And I suspect its the way most golfers think.
    I just feel the bad eggs aren't worth changing a system for - there will always be handicap cheats and they'll always be one step ahead of the game unless rules become so onerous that "normal" golfers just couldn't be bothered anymore and the baby gets thrown out with the bathwater.

    I got hit with an ESR last year, to be honest I didn't care, getting as low as I can is my goal, it took me from 6 back to 5, BUT I did feel a little miffed insofar as I would have rather done it "under my own steam" so to speak and via the normal route.

    At the other end of the scale I played with a guy who asked me after 6 holes what the criteria for an ESR were as he was undecided as to whether to do a score or not because he'd had 40pts a few weeks prior !! No system will ever IMO get rid of that issue.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,733 ✭✭✭SnowDrifts


    Russman wrote: »
    I got hit with an ESR last year, to be honest I didn't care, getting as low as I can is my goal, it took me from 6 back to 5, BUT I did feel a little miffed insofar as I would have rather done it "under my own steam" so to speak and via the normal route.

    Are you sure it was an ESR cut? The reason I ask is because you are not supposed to have an ESR applied in full if it moves a player from cat2 to cat1. It should have only brought you to 5.5


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,000 ✭✭✭Russman


    SnowDrifts wrote: »
    Are you sure it was an ESR cut? The reason I ask is because you are not supposed to have an ESR applied in full if it moves a player from cat2 to cat1. It should have only brought you to 5.5

    Sorry, yes, my mistake, the ESR took me to 5.5, as it happens I went to 5 the day after the ESR. Was in the middle of a hot streak, went from 8 to 5 in 8 days !:)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,313 ✭✭✭Dr_Colossus


    I see the merits of ESR and in principle am not against it but I can't believe they didn't make the ESR cut a function of your handicap category. Massive difference to a cat 2 golfer getting cut two shots in comparison to a cat 4 golfer. Why not make it something like
    normal ESR cut * handicap category / 5
    to even out the severity of it. I'm with Russman however and would prefer any cuts to come of my own steam rather than the ESR sledgehammer to nut approach. I got an ESR reduction two years ago when it first came in which brought me to single figures and it certainly tainted the accomplishment in my view. I've struggled with the handicap since but had a great round on Sun in a club singles stableford shooting +5 off 9 handicap to give me 40 pts. Of course I didn't come anywhere as it was won by a 20 handicapper with 44 pts followed by a 19 and 18 handicapper shooting 41 pts. Nothing wrong with that and fair play to them but I will admit that it's annoying when one of your best rounds ever is just not good enough to compete with the higher handicapper. At least if the ESR was proportional to your handicap category the higher handicap golfer would reduce that bit quicker to even the playing field.
    At least they had the foresight not to apply the ESR cuts to cat 1 golfers which is the aim either this year or next.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,133 ✭✭✭✭FixdePitchmark


    I don't know if this is sacrilegious.

    But - I can see an issue with a 20 handicapper having 44.

    That is 12 over. In my system he would be cut to 16 straight away.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 970 ✭✭✭Senecio


    A 20 HCP shooting 44pts is not unusual. Its the nature of high handicap golfers. They all have the potential to go low on their day.

    On the subject of ESR, if I was lucky enough to be on the receiving end of one I would be proud to say that I had earned it through my good golf. Not sure I understand some people who are worried they haven't achieved their lower handicaps under their own steam.

    On the subject of bandits, no handicap system will stop them. Certainly not the ESR, that's not what it was designed for. The only thing that will stop them is being cut on observation after the handicap secretary receives a number of letters from fellow members reporting them. To take it that far you have to be very confident as its a serious accusation to level at anyone. It should not be taken lightly, but if you honestly believe that it is happening and you're not prepared to go that far then you have no right to sit back and complain about the handicap system not doing its job. Thankfully I've never felt the need as I honestly don't believe I've played with someone that was managing their handicap.

    I honestly don't believe it is that widespread. I'm sure it happens, but I don't believe it is as prevalent as people make it out to be.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,736 ✭✭✭ssbob


    I think DrCollossus makes a good point above about maybe having different ESR's for the different categories.

    However your point afterwards about shooting +5 and not being able to compete with the higher handicaps is ludicrous, firstly the css must have been higher than normal with scores like that? Secondly you just shot +5 man, surely that is something to celebrate. Thirdly I have seen guys playing off 3 shoot gross 66 on my home course of the back sticks. Everyyone is entitled to their good day whether it be a +1 handicap or a 24 handicap.

    Afterall the guy off 20 who shoots 44 will lose 3.2 shots, the guy off 3 will lose 0.8!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,000 ✭✭✭Russman


    I don't know if this is sacrilegious.

    But - I can see an issue with a 20 handicapper having 44.

    That is 12 over. In my system he would be cut to 16 straight away.

    But a regular CSS based cut wouldn't have him a million miles away from 16 anyway....in my club CSS is almost always 35pts, so anyone shooting 44 is going to get seriously chopped anyway.

    I'd agree 44 is a bit on the high side, but it can happen.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,000 ✭✭✭Russman


    Senecio wrote: »
    A 20 HCP shooting 44pts is not unusual. Its the nature of high handicap golfers. They all have the potential to go low on their day.

    On the subject of ESR, if I was lucky enough to be on the receiving end of one I would be proud to say that I had earned it through my good golf. Not sure I understand some people who are worried they haven't achieved their lower handicaps under their own steam.

    On the subject of bandits, no handicap system will stop them. Certainly not the ESR, that's not what it was designed for. The only thing that will stop them is being cut on observation after the handicap secretary receives a number of letters from fellow members reporting them. To take it that far you have to be very confident as its a serious accusation to level at anyone. It should not be taken lightly, but if you honestly believe that it is happening and you're not prepared to go that far then you have no right to sit back and complain about the handicap system not doing its job. Thankfully I've never felt the need as I honestly don't believe I've played with someone that was managing their handicap.

    I honestly don't believe it is that widespread. I'm sure it happens, but I don't believe it is as prevalent as people make it out to be.

    Agree with almost all of what you say.

    But, if ESR wasn't designed to catch bandits, what was it designed for ? Just seems a bit pointless if the only goal is to speed up the timing lag an improving golfer can sometimes have with his handicap reductions catching up with his ability. I'm not sure its necessary. To me that smacks a bit of the establishment wanting to ensure no improver gets a chance to beat people while on his way down, a bit like some Metro golfers wanting to change the criteria for qualification so no junior who may have been 9 last year but is now 5, can play against them, a form of protectionism IMO - keep it within the circle who have reached their level.

    Also agree its not as widespread as is made out. Of course it happens, but the nature of complaining is that you only ever hear of the exceptional events. No mention of the countless golfers who never get within an a$$es roar of playing to their handicaps.
    I'd guess if there are 2 or 3 real bandits in any one club that's about it. By bandits I mean people who are carrying a few shots AND can produce good golf to order. I've seen so many people tarred with the bandit brush and they never win anything, usually its based on a few good drives a fellow member saw them hit or a casual 9 holes someone played with them, its very different with card and pencil.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,505 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Russman wrote: »
    But a regular CSS based cut wouldn't have him a million miles away from 16 anyway....in my club CSS is almost always 35pts, so anyone shooting 44 is going to get seriously chopped anyway.

    I'd agree 44 is a bit on the high side, but it can happen.

    Sure it can happen once....but it has to happen more than once for ESR to kick in.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 970 ✭✭✭Senecio


    Russman wrote: »
    Agree with almost all of what you say.

    But, if ESR wasn't designed to catch bandits, what was it designed for ? Just seems a bit pointless if the only goal is to speed up the timing lag an improving golfer can sometimes have with his handicap reductions catching up with his ability. I'm not sure its necessary.

    I believe that is exactly what it is designed for. Usually juniors or people who have taken a break from the game and come back on a much higher handicap than they left. Both are capable of improving very rapidly.

    I don't think its stops anyone from beating other players while on their way down. As Greebo keeps pointing out, you have two opportunities to beat the field on your way down before an ESR kicks in. If I had two opportunities in a season to beat the field, I'd consider it a good year. If I were improving rapidly and won 3 competitions while on my way down, I'd feel rather embarrassed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,000 ✭✭✭Russman


    Senecio wrote: »
    I believe that is exactly what it is designed for. Usually juniors or people who have taken a break from the game and come back on a much higher handicap than they left. Both are capable of improving very rapidly.

    I don't think its stops anyone from beating other players while on their way down. As Greebo keeps pointing out, you have two opportunities to beat the field on your way down before an ESR kicks in. If I had two opportunities in a season to beat the field, I'd consider it a good year. If I were improving rapidly and won 3 competitions while on my way down, I'd feel rather embarrassed.

    Why ? I think its an essential part of golfing development - junior improves rapidly as he has the summers off, plays lots of golf, wins all round him for a few weeks and then hits his level. Followed by old guys whining and moaning about juniors winning "their" comps. Its always been this way. He'll likely only have a run like that once in his life before he plateaus and finds out how hard it is to make the next jump. I don't think its necessarily right to accelerate someone's lowering of handicap when they're already being cut through the normal system.
    Even if you substitute junior with "beginner", I don't see an issue.

    Having said that, juniors are delighted with an ESR as they're usually only motivated by handicaps anyway.

    Other side effects then include guys who normally wouldn't sandbag, possibly doing so to avoid a late season ESR, to qualify for an interclub team the following year. We've all seen/heard team managers "asking" guys to make sure they don't go below x handicap this year. Its wrong but it happens.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 970 ✭✭✭Senecio


    Russman wrote: »

    Having said that, juniors are delighted with an ESR as they're usually only motivated by handicaps anyway.

    As are returning golfers. You soon tire of telling people "I'm off X, but I used to be off Y before I took a break from the game". Any help to get back to your old handicap is appreciated.
    Russman wrote: »
    Other side effects then include guys who normally wouldn't sandbag, possibly doing so to avoid a late season ESR, to qualify for an interclub team the following year. We've all seen/heard team managers "asking" guys to make sure they don't go below x handicap this year. Its wrong but it happens.

    Again, no handicapping system will stop this behaviour. It has to be reported. Any handicap system (ESR, No ESR, CONGU, US system) can all be manipulated if someone is so inclined. The only people that can change this is you, me and our fellow members by calling it out if we see it. I'm just glad I haven't had the cause to as it would not be a pleasant experience for anyone involved.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,000 ✭✭✭Russman


    Senecio wrote: »
    As are returning golfers. You soon tire of telling people "I'm off X, but I used to be off Y before I took a break from the game". Any help to get back to your old handicap is appreciated.



    Again, no handicapping system will stop this behaviour. It has to be reported. Any handicap system (ESR, No ESR, CONGU, US system) can all be manipulated if someone is so inclined. The only people that can change this is you, me and our fellow members by calling it out if we see it. I'm just glad I haven't had the cause to as it would not be a pleasant experience for anyone involved.

    But that's amazingly hard to do, if not impossible, as well as awkward. What do you report ? that Joe Bloggs missed a 3 footer ? That he hit it out of bounds on 15th when he was going well ? That he had 20pts on the front and only 12pts on the back ? I'm not being flippant or smart with you, but how can an amateur club golfer pass judgement like that on another amateur golfer ?
    The top players in the world can have 15 shots different between 2 rounds (Rory at Memorial), and they're trying their a$$es off, how can anyone judge a 15 h/capper to be "pulling" intentionally, when by definition they're very inconsistent ?

    I was level par after 12 holes on Saturday and dropped 5 shots coming in, was I pulling ? Certainly not, I was trying to score the best I could, I just made a ba!!s of a couple of holes. If I was, I would have dropped the shots early on !

    We may think we know (and we may even be correct !), but can we be certain enough to report anything ? Very dodgy ground, and really it'd be nothing that couldn't be countered by someone simply saying "ahh sure he doesn't like me", followed by "I'll see you in Court !":).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 970 ✭✭✭Senecio


    Russman wrote: »
    But that's amazingly hard to do, if not impossible, as well as awkward. What do you report ? that Joe Bloggs missed a 3 footer ? That he hit it out of bounds on 15th when he was going well ? That he had 20pts on the front and only 12pts on the back ? I'm not being flippant or smart with you, but how can an amateur club golfer pass judgement like that on another amateur golfer ?
    The top players in the world can have 15 shots different between 2 rounds (Rory at Memorial), and they're trying their a$$es off, how can anyone judge a 15 h/capper to be "pulling" intentionally, when by definition they're very inconsistent ?

    I was level par after 12 holes on Saturday and dropped 5 shots coming in, was I pulling ? Certainly not, I was trying to score the best I could, I just made a ba!!s of a couple of holes. If I was, I would have dropped the shots early on !

    We may think we know (and we may even be correct !), but can we be certain enough to report anything ? Very dodgy ground, and really it'd be nothing that couldn't be countered by someone simply saying "ahh sure he doesn't like me", followed by "I'll see you in Court !":).

    I agree completely. But we're all happy to sit back and whine about a handicap system that's not doing it's job because so and so had 45 points last weekend after 28 the week before.

    Most of these so-called "bandits" aren't bandits at all. They are like you and I that have the odd brain explosion now and then but are capable of so much more on our day. I said earlier while I accept that it does happen (I'm not completely naive) it's not as prevalent as everyone makes it out to be.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 241 ✭✭idle


    Just came across this thread. Had never heard of an ESR. I was fairly pissed off last weekend having stood on 16th tee with 36 points and finishing with 39.

    Now that I know that if I hadn't fvcked up my closing holes I could have taken a big step to getting my handicap down a bit more I'm even more pissed off


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭ForeRight


    idle wrote: »
    Just came across this thread. Had never heard of an ESR. I was fairly pissed off last weekend having stood on 16th tee with 36 points and finishing with 39.

    Now that I know that if I hadn't fvcked up my closing holes I could have taken a big step to getting my handicap down a bit more I'm even more pissed off



    Use it as motivation as you know how good you can score now.
    39 points is not to be sniffed at, ever! No matter if you walked onto the 16th with 36 or onto the 18th with 36.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 761 ✭✭✭Dayor Knight


    This ESR thing is great! I was psyching myself up on another thread that I reckon I'm improving and hoping (aiming?) for a big score soon to bring my handicap down. Now I realise that if I can just get two of those in the next few months I could get an ESR and really make an impact on the handicap! (Sorry, Greebo, I know it sounds unrealistic but it can be a motivator for me). The second one would be harder of course, but a bit of ambition is no harm I reckon. Positive thinking! The aim for me is to reduce the handicap - that's the prize. Am playing more this Summer, enjoying it and am optimistic about improving form. New objective - ESR! Will be chuffed if I get one, won't feel at all 'got at'.
    Being a little bit tongue-in-cheek here of course, sort of half in jest, whole in earnest 😉.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 761 ✭✭✭Dayor Knight


    Btw, I don't think anyone should be accusing fellow posters of cheating or putting in dodgy cards to get a big handicap. IMHO


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,659 ✭✭✭BoardsMember


    newuser89 wrote: »
    i won't be competitive when the real weather starts again

    That's the spirit!!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,140 ✭✭✭✭TheDoc


    newuser89 wrote: »
    Hello
    I had a score of 42 points off 12.0 handicap and got to 10.6 then I see there was a extra 2 strokes cut off to give me a new handicap of 8.6.it seems a bit excessive since I was playing off 15.4 about two weeks ago and just came into form.
    My last 5 rounds have been scores of
    38,37,38,40,42
    And I have been steadily getting cut about a shot each round.
    I feel I won't be very competive the rest of the year now that they took 2 extra off me


    Same happened to me last summer, handicap sec said it was some new thing that came in
    (I know now its called ESR), where when you shoot under par your monitored for X days, and if you go do it again within a certain timeframe you get cut additional points of your handicapp.

    Last year I played Thursday, Saturday Sunday and shot 75 ( +3) in all three rounds.

    I was cut from 10 down to six, in four days. It...was....mental.

    I was playing of six as a teen but I'm not back at that level yet. My exact was 6.4, and the following Saturday got point 1 back to 7.

    I've been struggling through the year and am at 8 at the moment, but hitting good form and managing to handle that handicap, it can be tough.

    An additional headache was that the system used to cut me, didn't register properly on the database and it was printing my sticker out as 12 every weekend, when I was actually of seven. Took 3 months to resolve and caused havoc, from having to explain to people, incorrectly marked cards, chaos with club teams etc. Ende dup having to remove myself from all club teams because it was such a mess.

    It's a new ruling like for handicapps, but there is leeway in terms of the various Golfing unions as how it is deployed. In Scotland, England, Wales, the States, the handicapp secretary has discretion. So they might see someone going from 12 - 7, think they might struggle, and bring it to lets say 9.

    In Ireland however, there is no discretion from the secretary, so you have someone who has a blitzy weekend, struggle of a low handicapp for the rest of the season.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,733 ✭✭✭SnowDrifts


    TheDoc wrote: »
    In Ireland however, there is no discretion from the secretary, so you have someone who has a blitzy weekend, struggle of a low handicapp for the rest of the season.

    Well better that than continue to allow the possibility of a guy off 10 shooting more rounds of 3 over. It protects the field.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,349 ✭✭✭Wombatman


    313747.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,140 ✭✭✭✭TheDoc


    SnowDrifts wrote: »
    Well better that than continue to allow the possibility of a guy off 10 shooting more rounds of 3 over. It protects the field.

    It shouldn't put the individual entirely out of the field either. There are cases of exceptional scoring where things just come together.

    75 is my personal best, I've shot it loads of times the now. The first time I did it,was off like 15 or something.

    I personally don't mind, lowering my handicap and being a better golfer is everything to me, the prizes come second. But going from 10-6 in a weekend effectively put me completely out of contention for the entire summer. I struggled, was getting .1's back all over the place, and all of a sudden had to ramp up my practice to try stay there.

    I wouldn't be suprised if I drift out to 9, I'm in a weird place with my game at the moment. While I was shooting ok scores last summer, I had that weekend where the practice and everything came together, but I'm not at the level where I'm consistently in the buffer zone every week. It's actually rare which is annoying, I'm either getting .1s back or losing them, rarely staying static.

    I'd also argue the field doesn't need "protecting" from a ten handicapper in summer. Out of those three rounds of 75 gross(one of them was Presidents of the back stakes, the other was our monthly medal of the back stakes) I only received class prizes, 2nd place for the medal and third for the presidents day.

    I didn't even feature in the prizes for the Thursday open, so I'd have to argue who is getting the protection. Getting cut from 20-16 is one thing, from 10-6 is entirely different.


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